Theism: debating the dictionary

[Paraprakrti]

Dictionary.com defines the term 'theism' as: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Yet, the fact is that an atheist can also believe in a god or gods and not compromise his/her atheism. Theism is distinguished from atheism by the belief in a God(s) that constitutes the Supreme Absolute Truth. Otherwise, belief in a "god" or "gods" is merely the belief in beings with some amount of power in this universe. In this case, I can believe in bob smith down the street who has some amount of power in this universe and, abracadabra, I am a theist. Since this is absurd in that it would make everyone a theist, it must logically be concluded that a theist be defined as someone who believes in a supreme God.

 

[MaddLlama]

I disagree. Not everyone who considers themselves a theist believes that any God has absolute power, or is the ultimate only truth of the universe.
And, some street huckster magician who cons you out of money isn't a God. Even if he had magical powers to shoot fire from his eyes it wouldn't make him a God either.

And, if you believe that God exists, then you're not an atheist. If you believe that God exists, then you are a theist. If you beleve it's possible that God could exist, then you are agnostic. If you believe that God does not exist, then you are an atheist.

 

[JerryL]

You are inventing a definition of "god".

"The" means "god" and "ism" refers to a belief.
"a" means "lack" or "not".

the-ism = god-belief
a-the-ism = lack-god-belief.

You then say "atheists can believe in gods". You support this by equivocating your own definition of God.

If "god" equals only "supreme power" than "theist" means only "believe in supreme power" and atheist means "lack of belief in supreme power".

If, OTOH, gods does not mean "supreme power" but simply "powerful cirtter" then "theist" means "belief in powerful critter" and "athiest" means "lack of belief in powerful critter"

 

[Paraprakrti]

I disagree. Not everyone who considers themselves a theist believes that any God has absolute power, or is the ultimate only truth of the universe.
And, some street huckster magician who cons you out of money isn't a God. Even if he had magical powers to shoot fire from his eyes it wouldn't make him a God either.

And, if you believe that God exists, then you're not an atheist. If you believe that God exists, then you are a theist. If you beleve it's possible that God could exist, then you are agnostic. If you believe that God does not exist, then you are an atheist.

Why not? A God who is not the Supreme Absolute Truth is merely a being with some amount of power in the universe. Therefore anyone is a "god".

 

[MaddLlama]

Why can a God only be one with supreme power? How did you come by that definition, and why should it be the universally accepted one?

 

[Paraprakrti]

You are inventing a definition of "god".

"The" means "god" and "ism" refers to a belief.
"a" means "lack" or "not".

the-ism = god-belief
a-the-ism = lack-god-belief.

You then say "atheists can believe in gods". You support this by equivocating your own definition of God.

If "god" equals only "supreme power" than "theist" means only "believe in supreme power" and atheist means "lack of belief in supreme power".

If, OTOH, gods does not mean "supreme power" but simply "powerful cirtter" then "theist" means "belief in powerful critter" and "athiest" means "lack of belief in powerful critter"

Then there are no atheists because everyone to some degree is a "powerful critter".

 

[Willamena]

Dictionary.com defines the term 'theism' as: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Yet, the fact is that an atheist can also believe in a god or gods and not compromise his/her atheism. Theism is distinguished from atheism by the belief in a God(s) that constitutes the Supreme Absolute Truth. Otherwise, belief in a "god" or "gods" is merely the belief in beings with some amount of power in this universe. In this case, I can believe in bob smith down the street who has some amount of power in this universe and, abracadabra, I am a theist. Since this is absurd in that it would make everyone a theist, it must logically be concluded that a theist be defined as someone who believes in a supreme God.

I have heard people profess themselves to be atheists and still believe in spirits and paranormal phenomena. God is the only "other-worldly" thing these people exclude from their beliefs. I haven't yet run across the type you mention --who apparently are atheists who believe in god.

Belief in god can also be belief in an ideal. For people who believe in the ideal, god does have unlimited power, but unlimited power does not define god.

 

[Paraprakrti]

Why can a God only be one with supreme power? How did you come by that definition, and why should it be the universally accepted one?

This is the only way to clearly define a theist as opposed to an atheist.

 

[fantome profane]

Yet, the fact is that an atheist can also believe in a god or gods and not compromise his/her atheism.

I don’t think this is true. There is obviously a great deal of wriggle room in defining what is “God” or “a God”. You can define it as supreme power, or you can define it as higher power. An atheist can either believe in the existence of higher powers and not define them as “Gods”, or can define them as “Gods” and not believe they exist. Either way an atheist does not believe in God (or Gods), however they define the term.

 

[Paraprakrti]

I have heard people profess themselves to be atheists and still believe in spirits and paranormal phenomena. God is the only "other-worldly" thing these people exclude from their beliefs. I haven't yet run across the type you mention --who apparently are atheists who believe in god.

Belief in god can also be belief in an ideal. For people who believe in the ideal, god does have unlimited power, but unlimited power does not define god.

This is the type I mention. People who believe in beings who are have power within this universe but are not the supreme absolute truth.

 

[Paraprakrti]

I don’t think this is true. There is obviously a great deal of wriggle room in defining what is “God” or “a God”. You can define it as supreme power, or you can define it as higher power. An atheist can either believe in the existence of higher powers and not define them as “Gods”, or can define them as “Gods” and not believe they exist. Either way an atheist does not believe in God (or Gods), however they define the term.

A god or gods that is/are merely beings within this universe with some limited amount of power does not constitute theism since everyone has some amount of power in the universe. If you believe in Santa Clause, does that make you as theist? I would think not. Therefore a theist must be defined as belief in a God or Gods that constitute the Supreme Absolute Truth. The definition of theism should be accompanied with a philosophical understanding, otherwise the definition has no value in contrast with the definition of atheism.

 

[Willamena]

This is the type I mention. People who believe in beings who are have power within this universe but are not the supreme absolute truth.

But god who is ideal has any quality in abundance: "supreme", "absolute", "truth", every bit as much as "unlimited power".

EDIT: I think I misunderstand what you're saying, though. Is there a word missing?

 

[fantome profane]

A god or gods that is/are merely beings within this universe with some limited amount of power does not constitute theism since everyone has some amount of power in the universe. If you believe in Santa Clause, does that make you as theist? I would think not. Therefore a theist must be defined as belief in a God or Gods that constitute the Supreme Absolute Truth. The definition of theism should be accompanied with a philosophical understanding, otherwise the definition has no value in contrast with the definition of atheism.

But this is your definition of what makes “a God”, and it is hardly a widely accepted one. I am a being in the universe, and I have some (extremely limited) power. By your definition that makes me “a God”. So you are right, an atheist who accepts your definition of “a God”, cannot accept my existence (or the existence of anyone else for that matter) and still be an atheist.

So now all you have to do is show me an atheist who accepts your definition of “a God”.

If you believe in Thor, and you believe that Thor is “a God”, then you cannot be an atheist. If you believe in Thor and you believe that Thor is some kind of powerful spirit (not "a God"), then you can be an atheist.

 

[Willamena]

But this is your definition of what makes “a God”, and it is hardly a widely accepted one. I am a being in the universe, and I have some (extremely limited) power. By your definition that makes me “a God”. So you are right, an atheist who accepts your definition of “a God”, cannot accept my existence (or the existence of anyone else for that matter) and still be an atheist.

So now all you have to do is show me an atheist who accepts your definition of “a God”.

If you believe in Thor, and you believe that Thor is “a God”, then you cannot be an atheist. If you believe in Thor and you believe that Thor is some kind of powerful spirit (not "a God"), then you can be an atheist.

If I understand Paraprakrti correctly, he is saying that a "theist" should be defined as the person who believes in the ideal of god, whether or not there is an actual being. The ideal is the being with no limitations. I could be wrong, but I think that is the belief of the majority of believers.

He is saying that anyone who believes something in this universe (something actualized) is god is automatically incorrect, as it has limited power. This is the "god" most atheists align themselves against.

 

[JerryL]

Then there are no atheists because everyone to some degree is a "powerful critter".

I honestly fail to believe that anyone here is so dense as to misunderstand my intent.

Then again, I don't think anyone would honestly may the equivocation you did in your original post.

As such, I don't believe that there is any intent for an honest discussion nor debate. I am therefore wandering off to greener pastures. Have fun.

 

[retrorich]

Dictionary.com defines the term 'theism' as: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Yet, the fact is that an atheist can also believe in a god or gods and not compromise his/her atheism.

Not true, by the very definition you have quoted.

Theism is distinguished from atheism by the belief in a God(s) that constitutes the Supreme Absolute Truth. Otherwise, belief in a "god" or "gods" is merely the belief in beings with some amount of power in this universe.

Where did you get that definition?

In this case, I can believe in bob smith down the street who has some amount of power in this universe and, abracadabra, I am a theist.

Yes, you would be. The name you give your "god," and your concept of his/her powers, are irrelevant.

Since this is absurd in that it would make everyone a theist, ...

No. Since I don't believe in Bob Smith, or any other god or godess, I am not a theist.

...it must logically be concluded that a theist be defined as someone who believes in a supreme God.

I don't consider that to be a logical conclusion.