The Trinity in Islam

[Montalban]

There is some reference to the Holy Trinity given in the Koran.

5:116
And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.

4:171
O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=4

Some apologists try to suggest that this does not refer to a Trinity. Odd then that it has historically been accepted by Muslims as saying exactly that...
"Ibn `Abbas, an early Muslim scholar said, `what is meant by the Trinity is God the most high, His consort and His son'.[1] Some later commentators saw the Trinity as `God, Mary, and Jesus'.[2] This understanding is based on the Qur'an (see Q. 5:72-75 & 116)"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Mna/trinity.html
Beidhawi [685 AH] (on 4:169) remarks: "Jesus is called the Spirit of God because He makes the dead to live or quickens hearts." On the following verse he is doubtful; "Either God is the third of three gods or is a triad of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Vol. I., p. 319.) He, too, avoids a real explanation of the gross misstatement in the Koran that Mary is one of the persons of the Trinity. The Jilalain [864-911] (Vol. I., p. 278) prove that Jesus cannot be God, "because He has a spirit and everything possessed of a spirit is compounded (murakkib), and God is absolutely without compounding, arrangement (tarkib), i.e.) simple." He says the Trinity consists of "Allah and Jesus and His mother."
http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/islam_christ.html

However I have some current commentary from an Islamic site that shows (EVEN NOW) Muslims believe the Trinity consists of Holy Mother!
"Question :
If true Christianity brought the message of the Oneness of God (Tawheed), and stated that He alone is to be worshipped to the exclusion of anyone else in His creation, whether that is ‘Eesa (Jesus) or anyone else, then how did this religion become mixed with polytheistic beliefs (shirk) and how did they take ‘Eesa (Jesus – peace be upon him) and his mother as gods besides Allaah?.
Answer...When Christianity conquered Rome, the new religion (i.e., Christianity) was infused with the blood of the old idolatrous religion: the title of archbishop, worship for the great mother, and an innumerable number of lords who gave peace of mind and were like who exist in all places and cannot be detected with the senses. All of this came into Christianity as the blood of the mother comes into her child.
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=12634&dgn=4
See also
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-koran-errors-catholic-mariolatry-trinity-father-son-mary.htm

In order to get around Muhammed's mistake, some apologist sites try to re-work Christian beliefs...
Q:Iv) According to Qur’an and earlier commentaries, the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus, e.g. 5:116.

A : (d) There were and there are such Christian denominations who include Mary in God head. As they are lesser in number, Qur’an mentioned them. But on other occasions, when the Qur’an denounces Trinity, the statement is applicable to all those who practice any kind of Trinity in the worship of God. The following verse may include even thou who believe in the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, professing God-head for them.

http://www.islamicvoice.com/april.98/OURD.HTM

From elsewhere on the same site...

"As for erroneous Christian concepts, the Qur’an speaks of the Christian belief in the trinity and their claim that Jesus, son of Mary, was Allah Himself. They also attribute divinity to Jesus and his mother, considering them gods. They also consider their priests and monks to have divine authority."
http://www.islamicvoice.com/february.98/SPEA.HTM

Here's another spin; that by default of honouring Mary as the Theotokos (Mother of God) we make here a member of the Trinity, instead of the Holy Spirit...

" The obvious conclusion is that for all practical purpose and in reality, when the issue is of Worshipping, Venerating, Deifying and/or Idolizing, it is Mary - the "Mother of God" and not the Holy Ghost has that kind of rank and status. Briefly, the historical figures of Jesus and Mary are venerated as Deities. The Holy Ghost is not venerated as a Deity."
http://www.mostmerciful.com/mary.htm

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Wow, thanks. The Lord revealed to me the Truth about the Trinity and I have been trying to explain it to the Christians that they have been under a misconception of the Trinity. This is just more proof for the Truth.

Except Jesus and Mary themselves are in the flesh, like us, they were made in the "image of Allah", and therefore are not deity. And Allah is not 3 seperate things. Allah is so great that he is the sum of all three parts. When we were made in Allah's image, the spirit of Allah in each of us is so great, it could never be completely housed in one pyhisical body. So he had to create us seperate 'father, mother, child'.

 

[Montalban]

Wow, thanks. The Lord revealed to me the Truth about the Trinity and I have been trying to explain it to the Christians that they have been under a misconception of the Trinity. This is just more proof for the Truth.

Except Jesus and Mary themselves are in the flesh, like us, they were made in the "image of Allah", and therefore are not deity. And Allah is not 3 seperate things. Allah is so great that he is the sum of all three parts. When we were made in Allah's image, the spirit of Allah in each of us is so great, it could never be completely housed in one pyhisical body. So he had to create us seperate 'father, mother, child'.

The implication of what I wrote is that the Koran is in error because Christians don't worship Father, Son and Holy Mother, despite the claims of Moslems.

 

[Ziroc]

Montalban,

There is no error in Quran. 5:116 does not talk about trinity, instead it explains the misconception people at that time that claims that Jesus and Mary as Gods. Nothing talking about the trinity.

 

[Montalban]

Montalban,

There is no error in Quran. 5:116 does not talk about trinity, instead it explains the misconception people at that time that claims that Jesus and Mary as Gods. Nothing talking about the trinity.

I have already covered this point.

As stated the 'misconception' is with some Muslims; I have given references both regarding historical interpretations, and contemporary ones, by Muslims that show that they understand the text to refer to a Trinity that comprises Mary.

If you disagree with their interpretations, then you can state that you disagree. They disagree with you, and I am highlighting their interpretation.

 

[Green Gaia]

I am highlighting their interpretation.

For what purpose?

 

[Montalban]

For what purpose?

To promote discussion. What is the purpose in asking me what is the purpose? Do you do this with all posters, or just a lucky few; perhaps also subject for a PM.

From my understanding of Islam the majority view, over a majority of time has been that the Trinity includes Mary. Hence I have cited references to both historic interpretations (which is not from an Islamic site) and from contemporary ones (which are).

To this there is a singular exception who has posted here, who interprets it differently.

 

[Ziroc]

...Some later commentators saw the Trinity as `God, Mary, and Jesus'.[2] This understanding is based on the Qur'an (see Q. 5:72-75 & 116)"...

As stated the 'misconception' is with some Muslims; I have given references both regarding historical interpretations, and contemporary ones, by Muslims that show that they understand the text to refer to a Trinity that comprises Mary.

Who are the commentators? They did not mention any names for those commentators. And I already told you that 5:116 does not talk about trinity. While 5:72-75 does. However, 5:72-75 does not state anywhere about Mary as one of the Gods in the trinity. So the comments made by them are wrong and does not have any base.

 

[Montalban]

I already gave references

 

[Ziroc]

And I already uncovered some flaw statements in your references.

 

[Montalban]

And I already uncovered some flaw statements in your references.

So your rebuttal is that the references I gave, which a moment ago you seemed to have forgotten are erroneous because you say that they are, backed by the statement that they are.

You should also write to islamicvoice and let them know.

 

[jewscout]

The implication of what I wrote is that the Koran is in error because Christians don't worship Father, Son and Holy Mother, despite the claims of Moslems.

well regardless i know Roman Catholicism, at least, puts a heavy emphasis on the Virgin Mary and her role in the connection between catholics and their concept of G-d.

not all christians pray for aid from Saints, but some do

i don't think this puts the concept of the validity of the Koran for Muslims into question
it's their holy text, and just like any people w/ a holy text there is little you can do to shake the foundations of a believers faith in it...

i'm sure one could easily pick apart the contradictions, errors, and mistranslations in the Christian Bible just as well...

 

[Ziroc]

i'm sure one could easily pick apart the contradictions, errors, and mistranslations in the Christian Bible just as well...

Jewscout,

You are saying 'as well', this means that you say that Quran has contradictions and errors. There are no contradictions and errors in Quran. Contradictions and errrors due to mistranslations? Maybe so, but this is human error, so it could happen but it'll not last for long, because it'll be soon be discovered and then corrected. But Quran without human error, has no contradictions and errors. If you claim that Quran has contradictions and/or errors, show me.

 

[Montalban]

well regardless i know Roman Catholicism, at least, puts a heavy emphasis on the Virgin Mary and her role in the connection between Catholics and their concept of G-d.

It is true that some Catholics will even go so far as to call her a co-redemptress (aka co-redemptrix). However you've got mixed up between what some think of the Trinity now, to what they thought of the Trinity back in Muhammad's time. The idea of a co-redemptress is not yet Catholic Dogma.

In the time of Muhammad the Trinity had already been defined by 'Orthodox' Christians as being Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Some Christian sects disagreed with this, and were expelled into the lands of the Persians etc. It is clear Muhammad had some contact with them and accepted their version of the Trinity as being a normative belief for ALL Christians, and so he wrote against that.

However he was wrong in assuming all Christians worship that way. But, it is why many Muslims still acknowledge that it refers to the Trinity; because it did; only, to Muhammad's conception of Christian Orthodoxy. Muhammad never said "For those Christians who believe this...." He took it as read that all Christians believed it; such is an indicator that he was acting on his own volition, and not guided by an all-knowing God.

not all Christians pray for aid from Saints, but some do

Praying to the aid of saints is nothing to do with the Trinity.

i don't think this puts the concept of the validity of the Koran for Muslims into question it's their holy text, and just like any people we/ a holy text there is little you can do to shake the foundations of a believers faith in it...

I'm sure one could easily pick apart the contradictions, errors, and mistranslations in the Christian Bible just as well..

You can debate anything and thus this is a truism.

 

[Lloyd]

Praying to the aid of saints is nothing to do with the Trinity.

Actually, devotion to Mary is integrally tied to the trinity. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense without it. Mary is held in such high regard precisely because of her role in bringing God incarnate into the world, which pretty much brings it back to the trinity.

As for the Qur'an...Muhammed suggests that Christians were worshipping Mary as a God because their devotion to Mary was fairly indistinguishable from worship of God. Christians were not intentionally worshipping Mary, that was just what it almost amounted to. It's the same way that a nice car can be considered an idol if too much attention is paid to it.

 

[Montalban]

Actually, devotion to Mary is integrally tied to the trinity. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense without it. Mary is held in such high regard precisely because of her role in bringing God incarnate into the world, which pretty much brings it back to the trinity.

As for the Qur'an...Muhammed suggests that Christians were worshipping Mary as a God because their devotion to Mary was fairly indistinguishable from worship of God. Christians were not intentionally worshipping Mary, that was just what it almost amounted to. It's the same way that a nice car can be considered an idol if too much attention is paid to it.

Everyone is tied to the Trinity. Mary is not worshipped but venerated. The Trinity was already defined when Muhammed made this claim, and it did not include Father, Son and Holy Mother... at best you are trying to suggest he should have said Father, Son, Holy Ghost AND Holy Mother -as you seem to think that Christians deem her equal of the other three. And he didn't say that.

 

[Lloyd]

Everyone is tied to the Trinity. Mary is not worshipped but venerated. The Trinity was already defined when Muhammed made this claim, and it did not include Father, Son and Holy Mother... at best you are trying to suggest he should have said Father, Son, Holy Ghost AND Holy Mother -as you seem to think that Christians deem her equal of the other three. And he didn't say that.

I think what Muhammed was saying was that veneration of Mary was approaching idolatry, which was perceived to be closely related to regarding Jesus as God, and thus tied to the trinity.

 

[Montalban]

I think what Muhammed was saying was that veneration of Mary was approaching idolatry, which was perceived to be closely related to regarding Jesus as God, and thus tied to the trinity.

Many Muslim commentators, that I have made mention of, interpret it differently to meaning that Christians believe in Father, Son and Holy Mother.

 

[Omer]

Hi Montalban;

The problem here is that , the Quran only mentions the word "three" >> this is all you can find on Trinity in the quran and mixing the opinions of commentators with what the quran says confuses people. The commentators has no effect to what the quran states on the topic. You too, may have been confused too. My advice would be that read the quotes you related here again with more concentration, and know that there are so many webpages around in circulation that which has no credibility, whatever belief they may be mentioning. That's my say on this;

see ya

 

[saidur611]

Dear friend, I am sure the following paragraphs will clear about the concept of Allah. please read it carefully.

‘Shirk’, the word used for idolatry in Arabic means “partnership/association”.

In the Qur’an, to practise idolatry is to associate any other being, any other person, or concept with Allah, considering them to be equal to Allah, and to act upon this unsound belief.

In translations of the Qur’an, idolatry is explained as “associating a partner with Allah”. It is expressed thus: “having another god besides Allah”, or “worshipping another god besides Allah”. In its broadest sense, idolatry is to adhere to principles and values, or pursue a life style other than is consistent with the teachings and moral values of the Qur’an. Anyone harboring a thought or judgment opposing the Qur’an is a mere idolater; by such a stance he simply manifests his acceptance of the existence of a ruler other than Allah. On the Day of Judgment, they still reject being involved in idolatry. The stance they adopt is explained in the following verse:

One day shall We gather them all together: We shall say to those who ascribed partners (to Us):

“Where are the partners whom you (invented and) talked about?” There will then be (left) no subterfuge for them but to say: “By Allah, our Lord, we were not those who associated other gods with Allah.” Behold! How they lie against their own souls! But the (lie) which they invented will leave them in the lurch. (Al-Ana‘am, 22-24)


From the foregoing, it is clear that idolatry is the diversion of the feeling of “love” from Allah to other beings. The strong attachment formed to idols is explained in the following verse:

Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): They love them as they should love Allah. But those of the Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will sternly enforce the penalty. (Surah Al-Baqara, 2:165)

This verse makes it clear that “love” given to the wrong people lays the basis for “worshipping others than Allah” as well as idolatry.

In another verse, in the words of Prophet Abraham, it is asserted that unbelievers leave Allah and strengthen the bond with their idols:

And he said: “You have taken (for worship) idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment you shall disown and curse each other: and your abode will be the Fire, and you shall have none to help you.”(Al-Ankaboot, 25)


As the verses suggest, one of the most significant characteristics of polytheistic societies is their approach to true religion; they reject some commandments of the religion revealed by Allah and hence form divisions within the religion. However, it should be kept in mind that even a minor diversion from the Qur’an is an addition or alteration to what Allah has revealed, and consequently a source of polytheism. In the verses below it is stated that no deed of the pagans is accepted by Allah; even their prayers and worship:

But it has already been revealed to you, as it was to those who went before you, “If you were to associate other gods with Allah, truly fruitless would your work in life be,” and you would surely be in the ranks of those who lose all spiritual good”. (Az-Zumar, 65)

Out of what Allah has produced in abundance in tilth and in cattle, they assigned Him a share: they say, according to their fancies: “This is for Allah, and this for our partners!” But the share of their “partners” does not reach Allah, whilst the share of Allah reaches their “partners” ! Evil and unjust is their judgement! (Al-Anaam, 136)

A believer may commit various sins. However, behind these sins, there is no question of a revolt or a similar intention or act against Allah. What makes idolatry different from other sins is that, in contrast to the other sins, idolatry assigns another god besides Allah and invents a lie against Him. Thus idolatry is the greatest sin. Accordingly, Allah mentions in the Qur’an that He will forgive any sin except idolatry:

Allah does not forgive those who set up partners with Him; but He forgives whom He pleases; for anything else; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. (An-Nisa, 48)

Allah does not forgive the sin of associating other gods with Him; but He forgives whom He pleases for sins other than this: one who associates other gods with Allah, has strayed far, far away (from the right). (An-Nisa, 116)
Turn back in repentance to Allah, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and do not be among those who associate other gods with Allah. (Ar- Rum, 30)

Behold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction: “O my son! Serve no other deity besides Allah: for false worship is indeed the greatest wrong-doing.” (Luqman, 13)

Say: “I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him do what is right, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.” (Al-Kahf, 110)

Anything, living or non-living, which the pagans assign as partners to Allah by no means possess any divine attributes. The authority, sovereignty, supremacy, and prosperity a person possesses, for instance, truly belong to Allah. At this point, we hardly need mention that these are only imaginary beings one creates in one’s own mind. In the Qur’an it is described thus:

Behold! Truly to Allah belong all creatures, in the heavens and on earth. What do they follow who worship as His “partners” other than Allah? They follow nothing but fancy, and they do nothing but lie. (Jonah, 66)

On the Day of Judgment, their fate will be as narrated in the following verses:

One day shall We gather them all together. Then we shall say to the idolaters, “To your place! You and those you associated with us as ‘partners’. We shall separate them, and their “partners” will say: “It was not us that you worshipped! Allah is sufficient for a witness between us and you: we certainly knew nothing of your worship of us!” There every soul will prove the fruits of the deeds it sent before it: they will be brought back to Allah their rightful Lord, and their invented falsehoods will leave them in the lurch. (Jonah 28-30)

TThe Qur’an defines the end of the pagans as follows:

But when they saw Our punishment, they said: “We believe in Allah, the one Allah and we reject the partners we used to associate with Him.” But their professing the faith when they actually saw Our punishment was not going to profit them. Such has been Allah’s way of dealing with His servants from the most ancient times. And so the rejecters of Allah perished utterly!(Al-Ghafir, 84-85)

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=56566