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"The targeting of civilians" and the purity of arms.

Levite

Higher and Higher
Totally rediculous.

1) Jews can live wherever they want. It doesn't matter if it's unauthorized or not.

It's an utter disgrace that Israel forced jews out their homes in Gaza.

2) The last thing Israel needs to do is pull out of Judea and Samaria

a) Israel completely pulled out of Gaza and we see now the results. The Gaza government instead of using the billions of dollars of aid for it's civilians has been using it to destroy all of Israel

b) Pulling out of Judea and Samaira would make Israel only 9 miles in that stretch of land. That is indefensible.

c) There is no one on the other side to negotiate with. The arabs on the other side have clearly showed that they wish to destroy all of Israel. That is their goal. Israel shouldn't help them attain this goal.

It doesn't matter what Israel gives away, the arab governments will not be satisifed untill all of Israel is gone. The more Israel gives away for vague promises of peace that never come true the weaker and more vulnerable Israel is.

The incursion in Gaza has brought this all to the surface.

What Israel should do is officially annex the land which is what they should have done in 1967. The arabs in judea and samaria are welcome to return to their homeland of Jordan. Otherwise there should be steps for them to become residents of Israel.

Unsurprisingly, I disagree. What you are saying is entirely unrealistic.

While I agree that Jordan should have been the Palestinian state as intended by the division of the British Mandate, that didn't happen. While I agree that the West Bank should have been annexed in 1967, that didn't happen. It's too late to go back and try and change history. The moment when such an annexation might have been accepted by even a small part of the international community is long gone. And the Jordanians are not about to accommodate the original purpose of their country, whether that is just or not. Also, Israel has given its word, which should be honored.

But mostly, it is clear that there will never be peace without a Palestinian state. And Israel will never have the opportunity to maximize its productivity in trade with the international community as long as it is being constantly ostracized because of the lack of a Palestinian state. It's true that no small number of people are merely using that issue as an excuse for plain old anti-Semitism, but I think it would be much harder for governments and corporations to cave to such sentiments without the excuse. Moreover, Israel needs peace in order to focus on the real and pressing problems in Israeli society, that all too often get ignored or pushed under the rug in order to deal with the Palestinian issue. And most of all, Israelis need to be able to grow up in a world where they do not have to expect two to four years of mandatory military service after high school, and a lifetime of potential reservist duty.

At this point, it is irrelevant whether the actions of the Palestinians have indicated that they have any real right to a state, or whether their conduct in such a state would be just to Jews living under their rule. It is irrelevant that there was never any such thing as "the Palestinian people" until their political agitators made it up in the 1950s, or that there has never actually been a Palestinian state, or that they could've had such a state numerous times since the dissolution of the British Mandate and lost it through their own greed and lust for violence. They have made it clear that a state for them, in the West Bank and Gaza, is the blood price we must pay for peace. And in the end, it is more important to have a small Jewish State in peace than a large Jewish State in pieces. That is the precise reasoning that the World Zionist leaders came to in their willingness to accept the UN Partition Plan of 1947, which would have resulted in a smaller Jewish State than even the boundaries of Israel after the War of Independence. It still holds true.

I certainly do not suggest ceding anything to Hamas, or to any terrorist group. But the PA government, while corrupt and ineffective and problematic in other ways, is not a terrorist group: they have officially renounced terrorism and acknowledged Israel's right to exist. Even so, we should certainly ensure Hamas is removed from power, and get assurances from the PA that they will strongly curb Hamas and other terrorist groups before withdrawing from the West Bank. Nor should we remove the security fence. But once we have those assurances, and Hamas is removed from power, we should get down to the business of handing them their ill-deserved state, so we can get some peace and quiet.

We can't live in a world of "should've" and "it ought to be:" we have to live in the world as it is, even when the price of living in peace in that world is unfair and painful to pay.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Let's say there was a palestinian state comprising judea and samaria, gazabank, and e jerusalem.

What do you think will happen? You think that the arabs will be satisfied? They won't be

They have clearly and continuously stated that they wish to destroy all of Israel.

All you will accomplish by giving away so much of Israeli land is making Israel indefensible.

Give away the west bank Israel is only 9 miles wide in that stretch of land.

You will have made Israel virtually indefensible for vague promises of peace that have never materialized.

Until there are people on the other arab side that actually truely want peace there won't be peace.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I wanted to add that the gaza incursion shows how impossible what your are proposing is.

Israel completely pulled out of Gaza. It forced jews out of their homes which was a travesty.

What did it gain for this?

The gaza government used the billions of dollars in aid for terror tunnels and rockets.

The same thing would happen if it completely pulled out of the west bank. There it woudl be even more dangerous because they would be much closer to Israel's major cities.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I wanted to add that the gaza incursion shows how impossible what your are proposing is.

Israel completely pulled out of Gaza. It forced jews out of their homes which was a travesty.

What did it gain for this?

The gaza government used the billions of dollars in aid for terror tunnels and rockets.

The same thing would happen if it completely pulled out of the west bank. There it woudl be even more dangerous because they would be much closer to Israel's major cities.

I think I was fairly clear that I said Israel should not withdraw fully until there were reasonable and acceptable security and peace assurances from a non-Hamas, non-terrorist government. Telling me what Hamas has done is irrelevant, because I have never suggested either accepting Hamas or permitting Hamas to govern. Telling me about trading land for vague promises of peace is also irrelevant, because I have made it clear that vague promises would be insufficient: something more concrete and trustworthy would have to appear before I thought complete withdrawal was a wise option.

But once those conditions have come to pass, then I do think it will be the only reasonable choice to withdraw and give the Palestinians their state. Israel will still have overwhelming military superiority, and should retain that. If the Palestinians, despite the concrete and trustworthy assurances by which withdrawal and statehood would have to be preceded, still turned out to be treacherous, Israel could still fight, win, and crush resistance.

But so far, your answers still seem unrealistic and guided more by emotion than reason.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
While I agree that Jordan should have been the Palestinian state as intended by the division of the British Mandate, that didn't happen. While I agree that the West Bank should have been annexed in 1967, that didn't happen. It's too late to go back and try and change history. The moment when such an annexation might have been accepted by even a small part of the international community is long gone. And the Jordanians are not about to accommodate the original purpose of their country, whether that is just or not. Also, Israel has given its word, which should be honored.

OK, let's put aside the past for purposes of this post.

it is clear that there will never be peace without a Palestinian state.
I think it's even more clear that there will never be peace with a Palestinian state. All the writings of the people of this state have indicated over and over that any gains in land they get, are to be considered only interim steps to their ultimate goal of the complete destruction of Israel. I've read nothing from them of desire or even supposition that they might eventually be neighbors with Israel. They desire every tree to call out that a Jew is hiding behind it, so that Muslims can come kill them.

And Israel will never have the opportunity to maximize its productivity in trade with the international community as long as it is being constantly ostracized because of the lack of a Palestinian state. It's true that no small number of people are merely using that issue as an excuse for plain old anti-Semitism, but I think it would be much harder for governments and corporations to cave to such sentiments without the excuse.
I know I said I was going to ignore history, but it's hard when there is so much history of the Jews being ostracized even when we didn't have a homeland.

They have made it clear that a state for them, in the West Bank and Gaza, is the blood price we must pay for peace.
I don't see it being clear at all. I have yet to see any clear demands at all in which Israel survives as a Jewish state.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I think I was fairly clear that I said Israel should not withdraw fully until there were reasonable and acceptable security and peace assurances from a non-Hamas, non-terrorist government. Telling me what Hamas has done is irrelevant, because I have never suggested either accepting Hamas or permitting Hamas to govern. Telling me about trading land for vague promises of peace is also irrelevant, because I have made it clear that vague promises would be insufficient: something more concrete and trustworthy would have to appear before I thought complete withdrawal was a wise option.

But once those conditions have come to pass, then I do think it will be the only reasonable choice to withdraw and give the Palestinians their state. Israel will still have overwhelming military superiority, and should retain that. If the Palestinians, despite the concrete and trustworthy assurances by which withdrawal and statehood would have to be preceded, still turned out to be treacherous, Israel could still fight, win, and crush resistance.

But so far, your answers still seem unrealistic and guided more by emotion than reason.
It hasn't happened over 60 years.

Maybe it will occur when the messiach comes.
 
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