And also note Lombatti's false claim that these forty (plus) copies of the Shroud were "so-called burial cloths of Jesus." They would only be that if they all were claimed to be the original, but as we shall see below, most (if not all) of them were only claimed to be copies of the original Shroud of Turin (as it was later called).
Moreover, note Lombatti's fallacious reasoning that because there are forty known copies of the Shroud (actually there are many more than that, which I didn't realise - see below), therefore the original they were all copied from, must itself be "a medieval fake." But if that were the case, then the "dozens of the surviving replicas of the" Mona Lisa, would mean the original Mona Lisa would also have to be a fake!:
There is nothing new in this claim by Lombatti that there are many copies of the Shroud. In 2004 a paper by a Daniel Duque Torres, who had made a special study of Shroud copies, was published in the British Society of the Turin Shroud Newsletter:
Moreover, note Lombatti's fallacious reasoning that because there are forty known copies of the Shroud (actually there are many more than that, which I didn't realise - see below), therefore the original they were all copied from, must itself be "a medieval fake." But if that were the case, then the "dozens of the surviving replicas of the" Mona Lisa, would mean the original Mona Lisa would also have to be a fake!:
There is nothing new in this claim by Lombatti that there are many copies of the Shroud. In 2004 a paper by a Daniel Duque Torres, who had made a special study of Shroud copies, was published in the British Society of the Turin Shroud Newsletter:
"There are copies [of the Shroud of Turin] the same size as the original, some very small ones (just 10 cm long), others with the spear and nail wounds in different positions, some with a crown of thorns and others without it, some from the same workshop and others absolutely anonymous. Some have texts written on (in Latin, French, Spanish and Italian) etc, ... [in] the eighteenth century ... a copy was made without permission of the House of Savoy, painted from another copy that had been given to Charles II, king of Spain. Another copy was made from the second one. The Savoy family encouraged the tradition to such an extent that Princess Francisca Maria Apollonia spent long periods of her leisure time painting copies of the Shroud that were then distributed according to specific requests or simple friendship. ... many copies made in the sixteenth century and the first half of the seventeenth were given to the royal family and nobility of Spain ... Many of the copies from this time were produced in Chambéry, where the original was kept until 1578. However, in the second half of the seventeenth century and all through the eighteenth, most copies stayed in Italy ... copies were made for the other side of the Atlantic (Argentina and Mexico) ... There are earlier copies in France, although most probably based on the Besançon shroud. ... When we know the date of a copy we can sometimes attribute it to a specific painter or even relate it to another copy which has since been lost. Such is the case of the copy kept in Pamplona, Spain, painted in 1571. This copy was only discovered recently and we can confidently state that it is the "twin" of the copy in Alcoy (Alicante), Spain, also painted in 1571. ... A similar relationship can be established for the famous Lierre (Belgium) copy, painted in 1516, once attributed to Durero but more probably the work of Bernard van Orley, and the copy held today by the National Museum of Ancient Art in Xábregas, Lisbon (Portugal), painted in the early sixteenth century. The Emperor Maximilian of Austria had requested both. There are documents which suggest that the Lierre copy was ordered by Margarita of Austria, Duchess of Savoy, when she moved the court from Malinas to Brussels ... There are two things that can be seen on Shroud copies – the texts, informing us of where and when it was made or reminding us of what the original is, and the image painted onto the cloth. ... There are various ways that this is explained on the copies, either telling people what it is or simply confirming the authenticity of the copy. Sentences such as ... the most common "Extractum ex originali", on numerous copies dating from the 17th century, when more copies were made than in any other century. Most copies were touched to the original, excepting of course those made fraudulently from other copies without the owner's permission. In this way a secondary relic "ad tactum" was created. This is evident from the cloth of many copies, on which a sentence to the effect of "touched to the original" was written in different languages ... If a date is given on the copy, it is usually just the year, although sometimes we can find the day and month, even the date when the copy was touched to the original. ... Given that the painters in question tried unsuccessfully to recreate the "impossible" Shroud image as realistically as they could, the result has never really been valued from an artistic point of view ... the aim was not so much to paint a beautiful image as to recall the original with pious intentions. One notable exception to this is the copy in the Descalzas Reales (Madrid, Spain, unknown date), painted with clearly artistic intentions. ... Fantino, Conti, Bocciardo, Princess Francisca María Apollonia and a priest at the church of Chambéry were all painters who at one time or another decided to copy the object that had caught their attention and yet which turned out to be so difficult to copy exactly ... Not taking into account the 19th and 20th centuries, and bearing in mind that there are another 40 copies known to have been made but never found ... we can state that 130 copies are known to have been produced. This number will no doubt keep growing as new copies come to light." ("Shroud Copies," Daniel Duque Torres, British Society for the Turin Shroud Newsletter, No. 59, June 2004).
As can be seen above, many (if not most) of these copies of the Shroud state on them that that they are copies of the Shroud, including who was the artist, the date they were copied, and for whom they were copied. If Lombatti has included in his "at least 40" copies of the Shroud any of these which state they are copies of the Shroud, then again he is misleading his readers by giving the impression that these were all independent originals in competition with the Shroud.
One of the most famous copies of the Shroud which was destroyed in the French Revolution was the Besançon shroud. Another famous copy that has survived is the Lier shroud of 1516. None of these `shrouds' claimed to be "burial cloths of Jesus," they all post-date the undisputed c.1355 date of the Shroud, are all grossly inferior to the Shroud and all lack the Shroud's unique major features (e.g. photographic negativity, three-dimensional, extreme superficiality, lack of directionality, etc). If Lombatti did not clearly point out to his readers in his journal article (see below) the uniqueness of the Shroud of Turin compared to these forty copies of it (and going by his media statement he didn't), then he would have misled his readers (if not himself).
I wont post anymore of the article because you guys get the picture, and this is why an elementary googling of a few links from some pseudo skeptical cracker jack box atheist sites wont give you the full info on the shroud. You need to dig into the full picture to see why the shroud of Turin is one of the most scientifically studied objects of our time.
I think I made the case for Lombatti having outbackitis and not giving the full picture of the shroud and only painting a limited view with cherry picked info because of his atheistic worldview.
At Least Agnostic art historian Thomas De Wessellow was honest in folliwng the evidence and that is why he believes that the shroud of turin is the authentic burial shroud of the historic Jesus but wouldnt go further, and just like agnostic Chemist Ray rogers would try (and fail )to account for a naturalistic explanation of how that image with all of its amazing characteristics got onto the shroud.
Folks I beg you to visit Stephen Jones Blog as he has a massive amount of great research on the shroud going way back . Im a small fry compared to him in this area.
I will proceed next to give your info on the shroud. I will try to find Physicist John Jackson's light raking tests to find the exact match and unique folding patterns of the shroud and the mandylion (or image of eddessa).
I know im bombarding you guys with info but like I said, the shroud is meant for curious people, seekers and agnostics. Its not meant for atheists cause they have made up their mind allready and I dont want to confuse them with evidence, facts and scienctific research as that might cause them to bust a blood vessel lol.
As can be seen above, many (if not most) of these copies of the Shroud state on them that that they are copies of the Shroud, including who was the artist, the date they were copied, and for whom they were copied. If Lombatti has included in his "at least 40" copies of the Shroud any of these which state they are copies of the Shroud, then again he is misleading his readers by giving the impression that these were all independent originals in competition with the Shroud.
One of the most famous copies of the Shroud which was destroyed in the French Revolution was the Besançon shroud. Another famous copy that has survived is the Lier shroud of 1516. None of these `shrouds' claimed to be "burial cloths of Jesus," they all post-date the undisputed c.1355 date of the Shroud, are all grossly inferior to the Shroud and all lack the Shroud's unique major features (e.g. photographic negativity, three-dimensional, extreme superficiality, lack of directionality, etc). If Lombatti did not clearly point out to his readers in his journal article (see below) the uniqueness of the Shroud of Turin compared to these forty copies of it (and going by his media statement he didn't), then he would have misled his readers (if not himself).
I wont post anymore of the article because you guys get the picture, and this is why an elementary googling of a few links from some pseudo skeptical cracker jack box atheist sites wont give you the full info on the shroud. You need to dig into the full picture to see why the shroud of Turin is one of the most scientifically studied objects of our time.
I think I made the case for Lombatti having outbackitis and not giving the full picture of the shroud and only painting a limited view with cherry picked info because of his atheistic worldview.
At Least Agnostic art historian Thomas De Wessellow was honest in folliwng the evidence and that is why he believes that the shroud of turin is the authentic burial shroud of the historic Jesus but wouldnt go further, and just like agnostic Chemist Ray rogers would try (and fail )to account for a naturalistic explanation of how that image with all of its amazing characteristics got onto the shroud.
Folks I beg you to visit Stephen Jones Blog as he has a massive amount of great research on the shroud going way back . Im a small fry compared to him in this area.
I will proceed next to give your info on the shroud. I will try to find Physicist John Jackson's light raking tests to find the exact match and unique folding patterns of the shroud and the mandylion (or image of eddessa).
I know im bombarding you guys with info but like I said, the shroud is meant for curious people, seekers and agnostics. Its not meant for atheists cause they have made up their mind allready and I dont want to confuse them with evidence, facts and scienctific research as that might cause them to bust a blood vessel lol.
