The Role of Atheism in the USSR

[1137]

What is your view on the role atheism/antitheism played in the atrocities committed by the USSR? It seems that many atheists dismiss the role that atheism played, and I find this rather upsetting. The importance of atheism to the values of the USSR certainly don't prove that atheism is somehow evil, just like the Islamic State does not prove Islam is evil. But to underestimate the role of Islam to IS would be irresponsible, and I think the same goes for the role of atheism to the USSR.

A main objection seems to be that atheism doesn't imply any moral system or anything more than an answer to a single question. I'm not suggesting otherwise. This doesn't change the fact that the ideology of the USSR which developed was, in large part, rooted in it's atheistic stance and hatred of religion.

Another is that people were not killed simply for religion. But this doesn't change the reality that some were indeed killed because of their religion.

A third objection is that the USSR had an official state Church. Yet the State itself took the stance of state atheism. It wasn't atheistic because that's what the people wanted, and this was a large part of why they could not eliminate religion.

 

[Sunstone]

Please let me know when you wish to move this thread to the Jokes forum.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Atheism as simple as it is can promote ideologies and philosophies of life. Communism is an atheist philosophy but it doesn't define atheism just to be clear.

But atheism is undoubtedly required in communism because communism as an ideology replaces man's hopes, dreams and faith which is a vital part of communism to work. Communism endorses faith in human success and social potential but these things when analyzed through history fall flat and show no coherence. Man is violent, aggressive and socially isolating to other humans which by no means is ideal in socialist theory.

Communism is very maternal as a moral system and also overrides many innate morals or values humans have like self survival and seeking to benefit the community and not the overall whole of earth. Biologically it is proven that human can not maintain themselves in social groups more than 90-120 which disrupts any notion of a nation achieving coherence with billions in play.

Communism sought only to replace what was natural for man and shift him in a direction against his biological nature, religion was only one of many facets of these.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Please let me know when you wish to move this thread to the Jokes forum.

Why the harsh blow?
The post acknowledges both arguments on either side with little bias input as far as opinions. Granted I do not know how @1137 's threads usually go.

 

[Sunstone]

Why the harsh blow?
The post acknowledges both arguments on either side with little bias input as far as opinions. Granted I do not know how @1137 's threads usually go.

It's just part of the thread author's flawed, but ongoing, atheist bashing. It gets old. If it were less childishly reasoned, I might have less of a problem with it.

 

[Lyndon]

I don't see any complaints about the far more common Theist bashing which consumes this forum!!

 

[Sunstone]

You sure don't seem to have any problem with the far more common Theist bashing which consumes this forum!!

Lyndon, don't you think it might be just a wee bit arrogant to tell me what I myself have a problem with and what I don't have a problem with? I don't speak for you. Maybe you should think about speaking only for yourself.

 

[Lyndon]

Lyndon, don't you think it might be just a wee bit arrogant to tell me what I myself have a problem with and what I don't have a problem with? I don't speak for you. Maybe you should think about speaking only for yourself.

Maybe you should read you're own post before you call me out.

 

[Sha'irullah]

It's just part of the thread author's flawed, but ongoing, atheist bashing. It gets old. If it were less childishly reasoned, I might have less of a problem with it.

Ah ok, I figured as much. I already looked at the posting history and I forgot I argued with him some months ago .
I obviously forget who I debate, sort of sad though. The one person I always relished debating is not present here anymore. I miss @1robin

 

[Laika]

Please let me know when you wish to move this thread to the Jokes forum.

From past experience, I know that your response will probably be the most good humoured one in this thread Sunstone. If the staff want to move it to the Communist Only sub-forum and will look the other way as 1137 posts in it as "respectful questions" as would happen in a DIR, you're welcome to. I know the OP has an anti-materialist agenda but we still welcome civilised discussion in gulag country.

 

[Laika]

What is your view on the role atheism/antitheism played in the atrocities committed by the USSR? It seems that many atheists dismiss the role that atheism played, and I find this rather upsetting. The importance of atheism to the values of the USSR certainly don't prove that atheism is somehow evil, just like the Islamic State does not prove Islam is evil. But to underestimate the role of Islam to IS would be irresponsible, and I think the same goes for the role of atheism to the USSR.

A main objection seems to be that atheism doesn't imply any moral system or anything more than an answer to a single question. I'm not suggesting otherwise. This doesn't change the fact that the ideology of the USSR which developed was, in large part, rooted in it's atheistic stance and hatred of religion.

Another is that people were not killed simply for religion. But this doesn't change the reality that some were indeed killed because of their religion.

A third objection is that the USSR had an official state Church. Yet the State itself took the stance of state atheism. It wasn't atheistic because that's what the people wanted, and this was a large part of why they could not eliminate religion.

Here's my previous thread on the subject if you're interested.

The New Atheists: "Communists aren't atheists" and its wider social implications

 

[Lyndon]

I've been known to theorize that what is missing from Communism is a belief in God, I was told this was the position of Leon Trotsky, perhaps Laika could inform me if this was true

 

[Shia Islam]

But to underestimate the role of Islam to IS would be irresponsible,
.

I know that this is not related to the core of the OP, however, since it was mentioned, i need to clarify..

One need to look here for the sect of Islam that ISIL follow...Indeed they (ISIL members) hate the Shia Muslims more than anybody else..

Throughout the history, Shia Muslims were the victims of the extreme brutal elements within Sunni Islam..

And I don't say that all sub-sects within Sunni Islam are bad...There are many moderate groups within Sunni Islam..The Sufis comes to my mind now..

 

[Sha'irullah]

From past experience, I know that your response will probably be the most good humoured one in this thread Sunstone. If the staff want to move it to the Communist Only sub-forum and will look the other way as 1137 posts in it as "respectful questions" as would happen in a DIR, you're welcome to. I know the OP has an anti-materialist agenda but we still welcome civilised discussion in gulag country.

No then I won't be able to debate since I am not a traitorous piece of Commie filth *cough cough.*

I am just having fun ya . I like trashing on socialists of any sort because it makes me look for conservative and patriotic, nothing personal .

But seriously though as a former atheist and sort of former commie *cough cough* I really wanna hop in on this topic.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I know that this is not related to the core of the OP, however, since it was mentioned, i need to clarify..

One need to look here for the sect of Islam that ISIL follow...Indeed they (ISIL members) hate the Shia Muslims more than anybody else..

Throughout the history, Shia Muslims were the victims of the extreme brutal elements within Sunni Islam..

And I don't say that all sub-sects within Sunni Islam are bad...There are many moderate groups within Sunni Islam..The Sufis comes to my mind now..

Oh we all know the Sufis couldn't harm Shi'ites even if they wanted to since they were so dizzy often times after all that spinning and running in circles .

One of my best friends is a former Shi'ite, he still gets defensive over Shia Islam. I may want to have a one on one discussion with you one day about Shia Islam since I am a former Sunni convert.

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe you should read you're own post before you call me out.

See, Lyndon, I told you this thread is a joke's thread, and you've posted nothing to contradict me!

 

[Laika]

I've been known to theorize that what is missing from Communism is a belief in God, I was told this was the position of Leon Trotsky, perhaps Laika could inform me if this was true

If we're talking about Marxist Communism, there was a group that did try and make it into a atheistic/humanist religion of sorts known as the "God-Builders". It has a precedent dating back to Ludwig Feuerbach's Atheist Criticism of Christianity and Religion of Humanity which was an inspiration for Marx. Some of Fredrich Nietzsche's ideas are very similar to the ones behind the League of Militant Atheists, but there isn't a direct intellectual connection between one and the other. However, this version of Communism was attacked by Lenin in his Materialism and Empirio-criticism as inconsistent with Dialectical Materialism as the basis of the Marxist worldview. Lenin's view won out and became the official view of the Soviet state. As a heresey, God-building did crop up from time to time especially in the USSR in the 1920's.

seems pretty clear doesn't it?

The accusation that Communism was a religion is a re-occurring one that attacks Marxism as a dogma or faith, etc because it is based on philosophical materialism and a "faith" in science (or scientism/scientific materialism). Whether it is or not is very complicated and involves a number of debates about the nature of knowledge. it is safe to say however that Communists displayed many characteristics that are typical of religions even as state atheists: they embalmed Lenin both as a symbol of soviet power and as part of pseudo-scientific debates on immortality, they argued over interpretations of the "scripture" (of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, etc), purged their own ranks of "heretics" (e.g. Trotsky), built personality cults around leaders and policed the thoughts, feelings and personal lives of the population as you would see in any theocratic system. North Korea is also an atheist state but the personality cult is taken to such extremes you would have a hard time arguing for it even from a marxist perspective.

Most atheists will distance themselves from Communism as a "dogma" based on treating atheism as inherently undogmatic. its an assumption thats often unspoken that atheism means free thought and scepticism. I'd disagree but its just me and @Augustus who will argue the case on that one.

Leon Trotsky was most definitely an atheist. He had Jewish ancestry and Marxism was popular amongst Jews in Russia as an oppressed minority but Trotsky was not in any sense a religious or practising member of the Jewish faith. Quite the contary.

No then I won't be able to debate since I am not a traitorous piece of Commie filth *cough cough.*

I am just having fun ya . I like trashing on socialists of any sort because it makes me look for conservative and patriotic, nothing personal .

But seriously though as a former atheist and sort of former commie *cough cough* I really wanna hop in on this topic.

no worries. your secret is safe with me and all the intelligence services that monitor RF Sha'irullah.

feel free to drop in to the Communist only subforum anytime you want btw. it doesn't matter if your religious or not as we really need all the help we can get.

 

[Sha'irullah]

no worries. your secret is safe with me and all the intelligence services that monitor RF Sha'irullah.

feel free to drop in to the Communist only subforum anytime you want btw. it doesn't matter if your religious or not as we really need all the help we can get.

Me? A righty conservative with pro-monarchist views and a love for fascist theory. I am the last person you want on a communist board. Like literally I am worse than Bill O'Reilly at times when it comes to ranting. I rant and rage so much my blood pressure forces my body to create a release valve in my colon to let loose the steam .

I think you communists call it farting but I call it colonic depressurization.

 

[Laika]

Me? A righty conservative with pro-monarchist views and a love for fascist theory. I am the last person you want on a communist board. Like literally I am worse than Bill O'Reilly at times when it comes to ranting. I rant and rage so much my blood pressure forces my body to create a release valve in my colon to let loose the steam .

I think you communists call it farting but I call it colonic depressurization.

So you want a society built on uncontrollable raving, ultra social conservative pseudo-fascists and a hereditary system of government? North Korea must look like paradise.

the offers there if you want somewhere to go. if you think of yourself as a commie, you're entitled to use the sub-forum given RFs rules whatever I think anyway. it just how the place works.

 

[Shia Islam]

Oh we all know the Sufis couldn't harm Shi'ites even if they wanted to since they were so dizzy often times after all that spinning and running in circles .

One of my best friends is a former Shi'ite, he still gets defensive over Shia Islam. I may want to have a one on one discussion with you one day about Shia Islam since I am a former Sunni convert.

You are welcome any time my friend ..
Don't hesitate to drop me any question that you want..
I am a Shia by birth, and I spent many years studying Shia Islam, formally and informally..
I have also studied some other religions..

I sometimes don't reply to the messages i get directly, due to being sometimes busy, however, i always reply..and enjoy replying to any question about Shia Islam..