The prophets in 1 Thessalonians 2:15

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes.

Can you point me to why it is.......clearly pointing to a culminating/transformative event that has already occurred......?

Simply because that is how I read the sentence:

God's wrath has overtaken them at last.​

If I tell you that "the Cubs have won the World Series at last", you would almost certainly assume

• that I was referring to something that has already occured, and
• that I was delusional.

 

[Reptillian]

NRSV

1 Thessalonians 2

14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches go God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews,

15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone

16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filing up the measure of their sins; but God's wrath has overtaken them at last.
​

Who are these prophets? How has God's wrath "overtaken them at last"?

Here's my Bible's translation:

1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it acutally is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe. For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

Interpretation: The prophets spoken of are the old testament prophets. This passage is somewhat anti-semitic. The wrath doesn't overtake the prophets but the Jews who "killed Jesus and the prophets" and who stop the early Christians from "speaking to the Gentiles".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is an open forum.

It is indeed, but this makes your pretentious certitude no less distasteful.

And, Cynthia, most of us are capable of using Google. So, for example, ...

Burton Mack writes of 1 Thess. 2:14-16 in his Who Wrote the New Testament? (p. 113): "The person who made this change was interested in directing Paul's apocalyptic preachments against those who opposed the Christian mission and did so by inserting a small unit aimed specifically at the Jews who 'killed Jesus' and 'drove us out,' for which reason 'God's wrath has overtaken them at last.' Nothing in all of Paul's letters comes close to such a pronouncement (Pearson 1971). The idea seriously tarnishes the inclusive logic of the Christ myth, and it presupposes the logic of Mark's passion narrative which, as we shall see, runs counter to that of the Christ myth. And since, according to this addition, it was the Jews upon whom God's wrath had (already) fallen, the reference must surely be to the destruction of the temple in 70 C.E., an event that Paul did not live to see."

Udo Schnelle comments on the same passage (The History and Theology, p. 48):

I Thess. 2.14-16 has often been regarded as a post-Pauline interpolation. The following arguments have been based on the content: (1) the contradiction between Romans 9-11 and 1 Thess. 2.14-16. (2) The references to what has happened to Jews as a model for a Gentile Christian church. (3) There were no extensive persecutions of Christians by Jews in Palestine prior to the first Jewish war. (4) The use of the concept of imitation in 1 Thessalonians 2.14 is singular. (5) The aorist eftasen (has overtaken) refers to the destruction of Jerusalem.​

Schnelle maintains that these arguments are insufficient (op. cit., p. 48):

(1) The tension between 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 and Romans 9-11 goes back to Paul himself. It is a problem that needs to be explained, not a problem to be set aside by interpolation hypotheses. (2) Paul's ecclesiology presupposes a church of Jewish and Gentile Christians, so that Jewish Christians in Palestine can in fact serve as a model for Gentile Christians elsewhere. (3) Prior to 70 CE there were already conflicts between Jews and Christians in Palestine (cf. Luke 6.22). (4) The concept of imitation in 1 Thessalonians 2.14 is found already in 1 Thessalonians 1.6. (5) 1 Thessalonians 2.16c does not have the destruction of Jerusalem in view, but Paul sees in the hostile conduct of the Jews that the wrath of God has come to completion.​

Raymond Brown mentions two additional reasons that the passage might be considered to be an interpolation. The first is that, "It constitutes a second Thanksgiving in the letter" (An Introduction, p. 463). The second is that, "The statement that the Jews 'are the enemies of the whole human race' resembles general Pagan polemic, scarcely characteristic of Paul." Yet Brown goes on to mention arguments in favor of authenticity (op. cit., p. 463):

(a) All mss. contain it; (b) Paul speaks hostilely of 'Jews' as persecutors in II Cor 11:24, and he is not incapable of polemic hyperbole; (c) In Rom (2:5; 3:5-6; 4:15; 11:25) Paul speaks of the wrath of God against Jews, so that the hope of their ultimate salvation does not prevent portrayal of divine disfavor.​

By cherry-picking your referrenced you likely impress no one other than yourself.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Interpretation: The prophets spoken of are the old testament prophets. This passage is somewhat anti-semitic. The wrath doesn't overtake the prophets but the Jews who "killed Jesus and the prophets" and who stop the early Christians from "speaking to the Gentiles".

Again, which prophets? What culminating manifestation of wrath?

 

[Reptillian]

Again, which prophets? What culminating manifestation of wrath?

The old testament prophets that were persecuted and killed as a result of their message apparently. As far as the wrath referenced, must be some historical event that happened around the time of 1 Thessalonians was written. I'm not well versed in middle eastern history during the time of the Roman empire, so I'm not sure.

 

[Quiddity]

Simply because that is how I read the sentence:

God's wrath has overtaken them at last.
​

If I tell you that "the Cubs have won the World Series at last", you would almost certainly assume

• that I was referring to something that has already occured, and
• that I was delusional.

Well, first off, pigs will fly before the Cubs have a season worthy of watching....

Or it could mean:

c. that it's the beginning of something in relation to prophetical literature.

I say this because the NAB reads:

16...trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.

scripture

So, it's not unreasonable to see this as a series of events; rather then one large one.

Also, as to naming prophets, Isaiah is said to have been sawed in half and the prophet Jeremiah exiled to Egypt and was said to have been stoned to death. But there is also nameless ones like you see with Jezebel the wife of King Ahab of Israel had many prophets killed (1 Kings 18:3-4, 1 Kings 19:10).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, first off, pigs will fly before the Cubs have a season worthy of watching....

And this from a man who presumably believes in miracles.

the NAB reads:
16...trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them.

That's interesting. Thank you.

So, who can tell me whether the Greek supports both translations?

 

[Quiddity]

And this from a man who presumably believes in miracles.

I have my limits.

Besides, we aren't bound to believe in personal miracles outside of revelation.

We just can, if we want.

 

[beenie]

**Staff Advisory**

This thread had been moved to Scriptural Debates​

 

[Pegg]

If the text has been properly translated, it is clearly pointing to a culminating/transformative event that has already occurred.

look at the writing of all the prophets, they all wrote in that style.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

look at the writing of all the prophets, they all wrote in that style.

If you say so ...

 

[Pegg]

Perhaps someone will come forward with a less convenient and more substantive clarification.

Paul tells us what he's talking about in the other verses i posted which you ignored.


Romans 1:18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience

Romans 2:5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment.


Revelation 6:16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?


Paul is speaking about Gods judgement day plain and simple. The day of Gods wrath is a theme of the hebrew scriptures too:
EG,
Zephaniah 1:14 “The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying [of it] very much. The sound of the day of Jehovah is bitter. There a mighty man is letting out a cry. ...17 And I will cause distress to mankind, and they will certainly walk like blind men; because it is against Jehovah that they have sinned

Malachi 4:1 “For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble

Zephaniah 2:2 Before [the] statute gives birth to [anything], [before the] day has passed by just like chaff, before there comes upon YOU people the burning anger of Jehovah, before there comes upon YOU the day of Jehovah’s anger...



That is what Paul is speaking about.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Paul tells us what he's talking about in the other verses i posted which you ignored.

You're relatively easy to ignore.

 

[Pegg]

The old testament prophets that were persecuted and killed as a result of their message apparently. As far as the wrath referenced, must be some historical event that happened around the time of 1 Thessalonians was written. I'm not well versed in middle eastern history during the time of the Roman empire, so I'm not sure.

all of Pauls letters were written before the 70CE destruction of Jerusalem by Rome. That small scale judgement may be what Paul had in mind....however it would also apply equally to the final judgement day to come upon all mankind.

 

[Pegg]

You're relatively easy to ignore.

why thank you :flirt:

 

[Quiddity]

Did the Greek clarify things for you Jay?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Did the Greek clarify things for you Jay?

Not really. My best guess at this point is that it's an interpolation and that arguments such as those offered by Pegg are shallow and self-serving. The text too much reflects the post-70 CE attitude found in Hebrews, while the reference to prophets seems awkward at best. But this is NT stuff and I might very well be wrong.

 

[Pegg]

Not really. My best guess at this point is that it's an interpolation and that arguments such as those offered by Pegg are shallow and self-serving. The text too much reflects the post-70 CE attitude found in Hebrews, while the reference to prophets seems awkward at best. But this is NT stuff and I might very well be wrong.

Paul was executed around 63CE.

 

[Quagmire]

Paul was executed around 63CE.

According to . . . ?

 

[outhouse]

NRSV

1 Thessalonians 2

14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches go God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews,

15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone

16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filing up the measure of their sins; but God's wrath has overtaken them at last.
​

Who are these prophets? How has God's wrath "overtaken them at last"?

Im guessing he is speaking about the Saducees.

Im guessing the prophets, are the people they hired paul to kill before he turned. he hunted for quite some time. He had to have had results, or he would have written YE though I tried and failed the christians ran way to fast for short little me to catch.LOL

"overtaken them at last"

Could be he hunted down the early sect and was successful, only leaving his version. less a few straglers