The Problem of Complexity

[shawn001]

"What we normally think of as 'life' is based on chains of carbon atoms, with a few other atoms, such as nitrogen or phosphorous. One can speculate that one might have life with some other chemical basis, such as silicon, but carbon seems the most favourable case, because it has the richest chemistry. That carbon atoms should exist at all, with the properties that they have, requires a fine adjustment of physical constants, such as the QCD scale, the electric charge, and even the dimension of space-time. If these constants had significantly different values, either the nucleus of the carbon atom would not be stable, or the electrons would collapse in on the nucleus. At first sight, it seems remarkable that the universe is so finely tuned. Maybe this is evidence, that the universe was specially designed to produce the human race. However, one has to be careful about such arguments, because of what is known as the Anthropic Principle. This is based on the self-evident truth, that if the universe had not been suitable for life, we wouldn't be asking why it is so finely adjusted. Stephen Hawkings

The other equation I posted was entropy

S=k log W

 

[shawn001]

Behe

Got his butt handed to him trying to use the "irreducible complexity argument "

We have also found the gene that causes eyes to be blue and can trace it to one common ancestor 10,000 years ago, before that everyones eyes were brown.

Everything we know about evolved a minute after the big bang and is still evolving. The universe and life itself.

The grand canyon was caused by erosion of the CO river.

 

[JustWondering2]

I believe in creation. Of course I believe Jesus walked on the water, too. Neither can be scientifically explained, they were supernatural events. Although I will say I don't believe that little river carved out the whole Grand Canyon, perhaps another supernatural event such as the Deluge...

That little river? Are you insane? So the "deluge" only fell in the rocky mountains in the Colorado water shed area?

Believe in fairy tales much?

Geology of the Grand Canyon area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Uplift of the region started about 75 million years ago during the Laramide orogeny; a mountain-building event that is largely responsible for creating the Rocky Mountains to the east. In total the Colorado Plateau was uplifted an estimated 2 miles (3.2 km). The adjacent Basin and Range province to the west started to form about 18 million years ago as the result of crustal stretching. A drainage system that flowed through what is today the eastern Grand Canyon emptied into the now lower Basin and Range province. Opening of the Gulf of California around 6 million years ago enabled a large river to cut its way northeast from the gulf. The new river captured the older drainage to form the ancestral Colorado River, which in turn started to form the Grand Canyon.
Wetter climates brought upon by ice ages starting 2 million years ago greatly increased excavation of the Grand Canyon, which was nearly as deep as it is now by 1.2 million years ago. Volcanic activity deposited lava over the area 1.8 million to 500,000 years ago. At least 13 lava dams blocked the Colorado River, forming lakes that were up to 2,000 feet (610 m) deep. "

 

[Matthew78]

Behe

Got his butt handed to him trying to use the "irreducible complexity argument "

We have also found the gene that causes eyes to be blue and can trace it to one common ancestor 10,000 years ago, before that everyones eyes were brown.

Everything we know about evolved a minute after the big bang and is still evolving. The universe and life itself.

The grand canyon was caused by erosion of the CO river.

This doesn't stop folks like rusra02 from claiming a conspiracy against ID. Some Christians seem to genuinely believe that skeptics, political liberals, and other people are actually terrified of Behe, Demski, Wells, and other IDers and their arguments and will do anything to discredit or silence them. They really do believe that this is driven by a fear that if ID proves right or true, then it will require them to take Christianity seriously as an intellectual force to be reckoned with. Of course, there is an ulterior motive; skeptics, liberals, and other non-Christians just do not want to admit the possibility that the gospel is true because they don't want to submit their lives to Christ .

 

[shawn001]

The Catholic church is even against ID.

"ID proves right or true"

Yet, right now there is not one fact to support it. ID was creationism wrapped up in a different pakage, because creationism was ruled unconstitutional. SO they changed the name and even came up with the wedge document approach.

But, the IDers messed up with and left the word Cdesign in the document.

Behe tried to use the "mouse trap arguement" and failed badly.

Nor does or is ID suppose to mean god did it, although that is what they want, but by changing it to ID it could be aliens did it or anything did it, any "god" or Diety."

But again not one fact at all supports ID. Its a guess not a fact or scientific theory. They have also been extremely dishonest. Behe thinks astrology is science.

Intelligent Design on Trial

Kitzmiller v. Dover School District.

"The 139-page opinion ruled that intelligent design is not science. Finding it had been introduced for religious reasons, Judge Jones decided it was "unconstitutional to teach intelligent design" in Dover science classes.
JUDGE JOHN E. JONES, III: Both defendants and many of the leading proponents of intelligent design make a bedrock assumption which is utterly false. Their presupposition is that evolutionary theory is antithetical to a belief in the existence of a supreme being and to religion in general.
To be sure, Darwin's theory of evolution is imperfect. However, the fact that a scientific theory cannot yet render an explanation on every point should not be used as a pretext to thrust an untestable alternative hypothesis, grounded in religion, into the science classroom or to misrepresent well-established scientific propositions. The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the intelligent design policy.
NARRATOR: Citing what he called the "breathtaking inanity" of the school board's decision, he found that several members had lied "to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the intelligent design policy."
JUDGE JOHN E. JONES, III: The crushing weight of the evidence indicates that the board set out to get creationism into science classrooms, and intelligent design was simply the vehicle that they utilized to do that.
NARRATOR: Jones recommended to the U.S. Attorney that he investigate bringing perjury charges against Buckingham and Bonsell for lying under oath. And "the overwhelming evidence at trial," he said, "established that intelligent design is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory."
JUDGE JOHN E. JONES, III: In an era where we're trying to cure cancer, where we're trying to prevent pandemics, where were trying to keep science and math education on the cutting edge in the United States, to introduce and teach bad science to ninth-grade students makes very little sense to me. You know, garbage in garbage out. And it doesn't benefit any of us who benefit daily from scientific discoveries.
NARRATOR: The school district was permanently forbidden to teach intelligent design in its science curriculum. The administration was ordered to pay the plaintiff's legal fees, totaling more than a million dollars. And the election of a new school board, opposed to intelligent design, meant no appeal of the ruling would be mounted."

 

[javajo]

That little river? Are you insane? So the "deluge" only fell in the rocky mountains in the Colorado water shed area?

Believe in fairy tales much?

Geology of the Grand Canyon area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Uplift of the region started about 75 million years ago during the Laramide orogeny; a mountain-building event that is largely responsible for creating the Rocky Mountains to the east. In total the Colorado Plateau was uplifted an estimated 2 miles (3.2 km). The adjacent Basin and Range province to the west started to form about 18 million years ago as the result of crustal stretching. A drainage system that flowed through what is today the eastern Grand Canyon emptied into the now lower Basin and Range province. Opening of the Gulf of California around 6 million years ago enabled a large river to cut its way northeast from the gulf. The new river captured the older drainage to form the ancestral Colorado River, which in turn started to form the Grand Canyon.
Wetter climates brought upon by ice ages starting 2 million years ago greatly increased excavation of the Grand Canyon, which was nearly as deep as it is now by 1.2 million years ago. Volcanic activity deposited lava over the area 1.8 million to 500,000 years ago. At least 13 lava dams blocked the Colorado River, forming lakes that were up to 2,000 feet (610 m) deep. "

I believe it was formed as a result of a cataclysmic flood. Same thing happened on a miniature scale when Mount St. Helen's erupted. To me the millions of years idea is more of a fairy tale than the Deluge. I also believe Jesus walked on the water, calmed the storm, and created everything and by him all things consist. That's just me.

 

[outhouse]

I believe it was formed as a result of a cataclysmic flood. Same thing happened on a miniature scale when Mount St. Helen's erupted. To me the millions of years idea is more of a fairy tale than the Deluge. I also believe Jesus walked on the water, calmed the storm, and created everything and by him all things consist. That's just me.

So you believe in magic, not knowledge or logic or reason.

 

[javajo]

So you believe in magic, not knowledge or logic or reason.

I don't believe in magic. I believe in the supernatural hand of God along with knowledge, logic and reason.

 

[JustWondering2]

I believe it was formed as a result of a cataclysmic flood. Same thing happened on a miniature scale when Mount St. Helen's erupted. To me the millions of years idea is more of a fairy tale than the Deluge. I also believe Jesus walked on the water, calmed the storm, and created everything and by him all things consist. That's just me.

That "cataclysmic flood" you refer to was a world wide flood, wouldn't the whole world be a big grand canyon? One simple question for you. If there was a global flood (not enough water on Earth for that to happen) where did all that water run off to? Ever seen the movie "Waterworld"? If a global flood occurred that cover all the mountains of Earth we would still be living in a waterworld!! There would be no place for the run off to go! DUH

 

[javajo]

That "cataclysmic flood" you refer to was a world wide flood, wouldn't the whole world be a big grand canyon? One simple question for you. If there was a global flood (not enough water on Earth for that to happen) where did all that water run off to? Ever seen the movie "Waterworld"? If a global flood occurred that cover all the mountains of Earth we would still be living in a waterworld!! There would be no place for the run off to go! DUH

Um, most of the world is covered in water, so...

 

[Photonic]

I don't believe in magic. I believe in the supernatural hand of God along with knowledge, logic and reason.

Magic.

 

[javajo]

Magic.

Supernatural is of God, magic is of Satan.

 

[Photonic]

Supernatural is of God, magic is of Satan.

Both are magic.

 

[javajo]

Do you believe in magic, in a young girl's heart? How the music can free her, whenever it starts And it's magic, if the music is groovy It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, gonna free her soul It's like tryin' to tell a stranger 'bout rock 'n' roll
If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose It's jug band music or rhythm and blues Just go, listen, it all starts with a smile You won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tappin' and you can't seem to find How you got there, it all blows your mind
If you believe in magic, come along with me And we'll dance until morning, baby, just you and me And maybe, if the music is right I'll see you tomorrow, late at night
And we'll go dancing, baby, then you'll see How the magic's in the music and the music's in me
Yeah, do you believe in magic, yeah Believe in the magic of a young girl's soul Believe in the magic of a rock 'n' roll Believe in the magic, gonna set you free
Ahh, hey, hey, ahh Do you believe in magic, yeah Do you believe like I believe?
But now do you believe like I believe in magic? Do you believe like I believe in magic? Do you believe like I believe in magic? John Mellencamp | Do You Believe in Magic in Lyrics House.

 

[JustWondering2]

Um, most of the world is covered in water, so...

i agree. But the portion of the earth that's not covered in water is way too great in area to be covered by the existing amount of water on Earth (by a factor > 10)! Even if there was enough water to cover all the mountains, where did it go? Less than 1% of all the water on earth lies underground and in the atmosphere etc. The remaining 99.1% is liquid salt and fresh water.

File:Earth's water distribution.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

File:Earth elevation histogram 2.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Agnostic75]

Supernatural is of God, magic is of Satan.

You have made an assertion, which anyone can do. Now please post some specific scientific evidence that backs up your assertion. After all, this is a science forum.

 

[javajo]

i agree. But the portion of the earth that's not covered in water is way too great in area to be covered by the existing amount of water on Earth (by a factor > 10)! Even if there was enough water to cover all the mountains, where did it go? Less than 1% of all the water on earth lies underground and in the atmosphere etc. The remaining 99.1% is liquid salt and fresh water.

File:Earth's water distribution.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

File:Earth elevation histogram 2.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe it is possible that when the fountains of the deep broke forth there was great volcanic and geological activity and new mountains were formed as plates moved and deep ocean basins formed as they cooled.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many antievolutionists will critique evolution and defend creationism by appealing to the complexity of living organisms and their organ systems or even cells. Creationists will say that something, be it the cell, the human eye, the wing of a bird, or some other marvel of the living world is "too complex" to have evolved and, therefore, it had to be designed. This is despite the fact that many creationists will never give a cogent argument for design or describe the criteria by which they distinguish a designed object from a nondesigned object. They will appeal to complexity and describe something as "too complex".

But how complex is "too complex"? This argument supposes that there are built-in limits to the amount of complexity that nature is capable of generating. If there is, how is this the case? What is the limit?

There is no limit. "Irreducible complexity" is a poorly thought-out proposition at best and deliberate dishonesty at worst.

I like how Neil deGrasse Tyson put it when he was on the Nerdist recently:

There's something more... sinister than even what you just described. If you walk up to something and say 'this is irreducibly complex', which means, of course, that there is no way this couldn't have existed in a simpler form, and function, AND it contains some complexity that we will never understand, thereby requiring some kind of intelligent force operating on it... here's what is particularly - I'd have to use the word sinister here - no, not sinister... inexcusibly hubristic - it's 'I can't figure out how this works, and so no one alive today can figure out how this works, and no one who will ever be born will figure out how this works, therefore it is intelligently designed.

That is the height of hubristic thinking. It's to assert that because you can't figure it out, no one who will be born after you will be able to do so as well.

Nerdist Podcast #139: Neil deGrasse Tyson « Nerdist

 

[JustWondering2]

I believe it is possible that when the fountains of the deep broke forth there was great volcanic and geological activity and new mountains were formed as plates moved and deep ocean basins formed as they cooled.

Yes there has been events such as you have described that happened over long time periods, billions of years. Do you know anything about Physics or Geology and how hot the Earth would still be if those events took place in such a short time frame as you suggest only thousands of years ago? Look at the facts man! The laws of physics (Gods laws) do not change!! The goat herders that wrote the Bible had no concept of science or even of Geology or of anything outside their surroundings. Even if the Bible was inspired by God himself, do you really thing that men of that day and time would have any under standing of "Billions of years"? They wrote in terms they understood days, months years. Plus a local flood in their limited understanding of Geology would appear to be global!!

Sorry but I stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago when I found out that Santa and the easter bunny were my mom and dad. OBTW the date for Christmas is based on a Roman pagan holiday! You know that don't you?

 

[Agnostic75]

I believe it is possible that when the fountains of the deep broke forth there was great volcanic and geological activity and new mountains were formed as plates moved and deep ocean basins formed as they cooled.

Do you know enough about biology, geology, and physics to have informed opinions about evolution, the flood, and the age of the earth?

Isn't inerrancy your main evidence, not a good understanding of a number of complex scientific topics?

Shouldn't faith alone be enough evidence for inerrantists? Surely the vast majority of inerrantists are not experts in science.