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The myth of 1%

Bthoth

*banned*
It's poetry, a verbal Rorschach test if you will.
Interesting. I have not observed that method of profiling before
And another. This has no specific meaning for me. I can neither agree nor disagree with it for that reason.

More poetry.
is it dain bramage or perhaps art?
Why is that rude? They're telling you that your words don't tell a coherent, comprehensible story for them. Maybe you should wonder why you see that written to you. Nobody writes that to me. Why not? What in your opinion accounts for that difference?
The insults are all over the replies and even a threat of telling others on the forum.

But at least you are explaining the why very nicely.
How is this different? Science understands life as the channeling of energy to produce and maintain homeostasis in far-from-equilibrium biological structures making organisms dissipative structures like tornadoes and hurricanes:

"A Dissipative Structure is a thermodynamically open system operating far from thermodynamic equilibrium, that exchanges energy, matter, and information with. the external environment. In this kind of systems, organization can emerge through a spontaneous self-organization process"
I am well aware of these points. But if you write 'abuses entropy' You may be attacked like I have been.
Life is like a slow fire. Fuel is oxidized, chemical transformations occur (metabolism), and heat is generated.
And a seed with water and soil will grow.

The plant creating the seed is an evidence of 'intent' all by itself. Not that the plant is thinking about it, but a part of the process for the initial life to live into the next generations.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
a..... I just learned about pantheism in the model of this forum, less than a 2 weeks ago. I changed my designation just recently but here, i am watching you few use it to attack me.
Apologies if I've offended you, but what I'm doing in these threads is questioning ideas and reasoning. I understand you feel invested in whatever narrative you're espousing, but I'm assuming you'd want problems pointed out, just as I would.
I admit I do get frustrated at times, when reasonable points are repeatedly ignored or interpreted as attacks.

My speculation in this particular post involved an impression of where you were coming from, and why it confuses so many of us. You seem to be echoing the religion/philosophy I most closely identify with: Advaita Vedanta, which posits a hierarchy of levels of reality ending in a pantheistic, metaphysical Unity.

I had the impression you might be expressing a certain, well-known mystical viewpoint, which might be coherent at it's proper level, but when mixed into a discussion based in the concrete, logical reality of diverse "things" we experience in everyday life, seems to make no sense.

What is rude is how this simple few feel that they have a right to attack
Attack what, you, your ideas, or your reasoning?
Now that is gibberish.
How so? Are we not all speaking from a shared perception of reality; a shared world, in a common language? I thought I was being clear on that point.
You're writing word salad with that rubbish. Remove me from that garbage.
Not a word-salad. I'd be happy to rephrase and explain if you're not following.

Again, end using my label in your dream state rubbish/gibberish and attacks.
Your label? Do you mean pantheism? That's not your word, it's in the public domain, so to speak, as a a legitimate school of philosophy or world-view.
Dream-state rubbish? How is it rubbish? Someone dreaming experiences a reality different from but just as vivid as our waking state perception. Strange things, from our viewpoint, may be experienced, but the dream is not questioned by the dreamer till he advances to waking-state, where all the absurdities become obvious, and the experience is then interpreted as unreal.

Again, if this seems gibberish to you I can go over it again, and if critical commentary and argumentation seem like an attack, maybe you should avoid the debate threads. That's what they're for.
You have no right.
???? -- to use "pantheism?" To posit a possible clarification of your confusing posts?
Explain.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I get it, you are upset.
????
The delusional are attacking me as if they have a right.

OK.... I have tested the waters here and found that you couple are upset and believe that you have a right to attack me.

END it!
????
I am wrote my perspective. You dont like it. OK
I don't understand it.

This is a debate thread. We're here to debate. We're here to have our ideas challenged, corrected, or, if you prefer, "attacked."
Grow up
move on
stop using my label with hate, contempt and the personal attacks
I'm not. I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. If you can neither explain it or defend it, why are you posting here?
 

Bthoth

*banned*
Apologies if I've offended you, but what I'm doing in these threads is questioning ideas and reasoning. I understand you feel invested in whatever narrative you're espousing, but I'm assuming you'd want problems pointed out, just as I would.
I admit I do get frustrated at times, when reasonable points are repeatedly ignored.
You dont like evolution?

or is discounting entropy as the reason, what made you see red?
My speculation in this particular post involved an impression of where you were coming from, and why it confuses so many of us. You seem to be echoing the religion/philosophy I most closely identify with: Advaita Vedanta, which posits a hierarchy of levels of reality ending in a pantheistic, metaphysical Unity.
What? Did my claim that "mankind is defining itself' cause the trigger? Is that the philosophical approach that caused you to try and put me into a box. I figured that in today's world many have figured that out by now.

'Life abuses entropy', is perhaps the clincher, that broke your back. I wrote at the start, that I have a bunch of principles that are different than you will find written by ANYONE. I just wrote in the religious section, asking, if god would prefer people that CHOSE to keep the commandments (maintain personal responsibility) to lead and teach mankind versus the idea of everyone following a tribe of 'chosen ones' claimed to be chosen by god? Not exact words by that is the gist. My point is, I am just that non complacent.
I had the impression you might be expressing a certain, well-known mystical viewpoint, which might be coherant at it's proper level, but when mixed into a discussion based in the concrete, logical reality of diverse "things" we experience in everyday life, seems to make no sense.
Sure, very few are willing to take on being honest before belief or accepted paradigm.

I am one of those! too honest and I am absolutely capable to think for myself.
Attack what, you, your ideas, or your reasoning?
I know, my reasoning is, I do not have to prove anything to anyone. I owe you nothing.
How so? Are we not all speaking from a shared perception of reality; a shared world, in a common language? I thought I was being clear on that point.
Yes, you were clear. You will attack me, if I do not comply as if I was submitting a paper for peer review.
Not a word-salad. I'd be happy to rephrase and explain if you're not following.
No need.
Your label?
Bthoth is not my name, it is my label on this channel. DO NOT impose hostility or try to discredit my label, because I am unwilling to give you what you want. If you do not like what I say, then move on.
Do you mean pantheism?
NO.
That's not your word, it's in the public domain, so to speak, as a a legitimate school of philosophy or world-view.

Correct, I do not claim to own a religious label. But I do own up to comprehending that LIFE: abuses entropy. And I do not have to prove it to you. The perfect cross of nature is em (electromagnetic) light. The magnetic and electric fields in perpendicular planes. I can live forever, or perfectly put my life is already half way there. I can raise the fathers to the flesh. I may not do it the way religious people expect but in fact they are alive here and now.

I have a whole bunch of statements, that will bug people but with rational basic common sense, anyone can comprehend them and be just as capable and never once have to lie to the self or others to be just as capable.
Dream-state rubbish? How is it rubbish?
It's not a topic or frame of thought that I even comprehend so trying to label or identify me with such claims, is rubbish.
Someone dreaming experiences a reality different from but just as vivid as our waking state perception. Strange things, from our viewpoint, may be experienced, but the dream is not questioned by the dreamer till he advances to waking-state, where all the absurdities become obvious, and the experience is then interpreted as unreal.
That is about exactly how I feel about the few that expect to be considered an authority of and over knowledge.
Again, if this seems gibberish to you I can go over it again, and if critical commentary and argumentation seem like an attack, maybe you should avoid the debate threads. That's what they're for.
I can debate with about anyone on any topic that I am versed in, but being attacked and then not having the ability to punch back, is just wrong.
???? -- to use "pantheism?" To posit a possible clarification of your confusing posts?
Explain.
The use of the term and then other interpretations of the term, that I have no idea about, in an attempt to put me into a woo class, is not civil.

Take any line that i write and question me, i have no problem. But if I am unwilling to write theorem or make up responses to appease you, then DO NOT use insulting terms to try and force me.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bugs you? I see it.
Doesn't bug. Confuses.
The process is constant, the organisms evolve.
But what is this "process?"
Ask yourself the question, you know far more than I do, right?
How should I know? I do know that many of us are finding your posts confusing or incoherent.
I wrote ""Exactly, the living system is surviving in a given environment and capable of change/adaption."""

And that is your reply because of what? Are you a creationist? Do you deny evolution?
The sentence is ambiguous or confusing. It's not clear what you're trying to say or explain here.
I'm asking for clarification. Start with "living system."
NO read on evolution if you need to learn what evolution is.
I'm not seeking clarification of evolution. I'm looking for clarification of your posts.
I know, you're making a fool of yourself.

Evolution is not magic, it is natural. Evolution does not comply to your god, gods or belief system. Try science and get an education beyond your bible.
Are you sure you're understanding my posts? I'm defending science and evolution. It's creationism, not the ToE that posits magic. I don't believe in gods, or in the accuracy or authority of the Bible.
 
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Bthoth

*banned*
Doesn't bug. Confuses.

But what is this "process?"
The living system is taking in energy/mass converting it to usable form and growing, developing/evolving.
How should I know? I do know that many of us are finding your posts confusing or incoherent.
Back at you. It's hard for me to consider attacks as civilized.
The sentence is ambiguous or confusing. It's not clear what you're trying to say or explain here.
I'm asking for clarification. Start with "living system.?"
The living system is taking in energy/mass converting it to usable form and growing, developing/evolving.

About like a red crayon and yellow crayon, combining to make orange. Is that easier?
I'm not seeking clarification of evolution. I'm looking for clarification of your posts.
I do not reread every line to address comments like that. Be specific no rewording my line for your own entertainment.
Are you sure you're understanding my posts?
Perhaps not.
I'm defending science and evolution.
My favorite topics on matters of life.
It's creationism, not the ToE that posits magic. I
The big ToE is what the paradigm shift is about.
don't believe in gods, or in the accuracy or authority of the Bible.
Great. So then contesting, doubting and abusing entropy should not hurt your feelings.

Atta-boy.

Glad we can be on equal ground.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You dont like evolution?
???? -- Where did you come up with that?
or is discounting entropy as the reason, what made you see red?
????
What did my claim that "mankind is defining itself' the tiger? Is that the philosophical approach that caused you to try and put me into a box. I figured that in today's world many have figured that out by now.

'Life abuses entropy', is perhaps the clincher, that broke your back. I wrote at the start, that I have a bunch of principles that are different than you will find written by ANYONE. I just wrote in the religious section, asking, if god would prefer people that CHOSE to keep the commandments (maintain personal responsibility) to lead and teach mankind versus the idea of everyone following a tribe of 'chosen ones' claimed to be chosen by god? Not exact words by that is the gist. My point is, I am just that non complacent.

Sure, very few are willing to take on being honest before belief or accepted paradigm.

I am one of those! too honest and I am absolutely capable to think for myself.

I know, my reasoning is, I do not have to prove anything to anyone. I owe you nothing.

Yes, you were clear. You will attack me, if I do not comply as if I was submitting a paper for peer review.

No need.

Bthoth is not my name, it is my label on this channel. DO NOT impose hostility or try to discredit my label, because I am unwilling to give you what you want. If you do not like what I say, then move on.

NO.


Correct, I do not claim to own a religious label. But I do own up to comprehending that LIFE: abuses entropy. And I do not have to prove it to you. The perfect cross of nature is em (electromagnetic) light. The magnetic and electric fields in perpendicular planes. I can live forever, or perfectly put my life is already half way there. I can raise the fathers to the flesh. I may not do it the way religious people expect but in fact they are alive here and now.

I have a whole bunch of statements, that will bug people but with rational basic common sense, anyone can comprehend them and be just as capable and never once have to lie to the self or others to be just as capable.

It's not a topic or frame of thought that I even comprehend so trying to label or identify me with such claims, is rubbish.

That is about exactly how I feel about the few that expect to be considered an authority of and over knowledge.

I can debate with about anyone on any topic that I am versed in, but being attacked and then not having the ability to punch back, is just wrong.

The use of the term and then other interpretations of the term, that I have no idea about, in an attempt to put me into a woo class, is not civil.

Take any line that i write and question me, i have no problem. But if I am unwilling to write theorem or make up responses to appease you, then DO NOT use insulting terms to try and force me.
OK, you've got me completly befuddled. I don't understand what your going on about, where you're coming from, or how you've arrived at this interpretation. :shrug:
 

Bthoth

*banned*
???? -- Where did you come up with that?
Im trying to find what your trigger was.
Again, i am trying to find what caused you to jump on the rude response wagon. What triggered you?
OK, you've got me completly befuddled. I don't understand what your going on about, where you're coming from, or how you've arrived at this interpretation. :shrug:
OK.... focus on single line items. I have a bunch in that last part and know that I am quite often misunderstood. Pick one at a time.

For example: "Mankind is defining itself'

Mankind is of nature, conscious of itself, created words and ever since knowledge has evolved leading to eventually defining itself.

I summarized with a one line response to help anyone comprehend what 'mankind is defining itself'


Sorry.............. I recently have been led to consider that I could have a condition..........drain bamage.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The living system is taking in energy/mass converting it to usable form and growing, developing/evolving.
So metabolism and evolution, then?
Back at you. It's hard for me to consider attacks as civilized.

The living system is taking in energy/mass converting it to usable form and growing, developing/evolving.

About like a red crayon and yellow crayon, combining to make orange. Is that easier?
I was following till you brought up the crayon, thing. Metabolism I understand. Evolution I understand. A combination yeilding ??? -- I don't understand.
The big ToE is what the paradigm shift is about.
What paradigm shift?
Great. So then contesting, doubting and abusing entropy should not hurt your feelings.
I'm not contesting or abusing entropy. We're in a closed system, with a strong energy source. There's life here, which increases order.
Atta-boy.

Glad we can be on equal ground.
Why do I feel a sudden urge to lick your hand....?
;)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Im trying to find what your trigger was.
Factual or logical errors. Ambiguity, vagueness or imprecision.
Again, i am trying to find what caused you to jump on the rude response wagon. What triggered you?

OK.... focus on single line items. I have a bunch in that last part and know that I am quite often misunderstood. Pick one at a time.

For example: "Mankind is defining itself'
Obscure.
Mankind is of nature, conscious of itself, created words and ever since knowledge has evolved leading to eventually defining itself.
Final clause is disjointed and incoherent.
I summarized with a one line response to help anyone comprehend what 'mankind is defining itself'
Is there a verb missing here?
 

Bthoth

*banned*
I was following till you brought up the crayon, thing. Metabolism I understand. Evolution I understand. A combination yeilding ??? -- I don't understand.
Male and female contribute sperm/egg and make babies each new child is a life having a portion of the parents, their genetic make up. A combination yeilding a new.


What paradigm shift?
"a fundamental change in approach or underlying assumptions."
I'm not contesting or abusing entropy.
I am aware that you are unwilling too
We're in a closed system,
Nothing is a closed system, unless on paper.
with a strong energy source.
Eating, breathing is the source of energy.
There's life here, which increases order.

Order? Which order?
Why do I feel a sudden urge to lick your hand....?
;)
That's a lousy order to ever attempt.
 

Bthoth

*banned*
Factual or logical errors. Ambiguity, vagueness or imprecision.
Are you sweet talking me now?
What, that 'mankind is defining itself'? Not even the slightest bit of ambiguity. Quite succinctly and non debatable. You can argue with yourself, but if you treat your other like you treated me last night, I will have to separate the both of you.

I had to look up the word, to make sure I was addressing it.

I can agree, I have not seen that scope in a peer reviewed paper to give you a reference that you can research and check the references.
Final clause is disjointed and incoherent.
Too quick perhaps? Maybe i should try with the socratic approach.


Step 1.
Is mankind living within nature?


Is there a verb missing here?
Sure...... MANKIND IS DEFINING ITSELF!

When the socratic approach is about done you could record the answers and write your own paper!

Do yourself a favor, DO NOT tell anyone that you learned it from Thoth. They may bring you a white, long sleeved sweater with a cute little bow in the back.

Just tell them that you learned how to think for yourself and act like me, shocked that they did not consider it themselves.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Male and female contribute sperm/egg and make babies each new child is a life having a portion of the parents, their genetic make up. A combination yeilding a new
Yes genetic scrambling, particularly useful in organisms with long generation time, to produce enough variation to cope with raid habitat change.
."a fundamental change in approach or underlying assumptions."
I know what a paradigm shift is, I just don't see how you're applying it.
Nothing is a closed system, unless on paper.I'm aware that the solar system and universe will eventually grow cold, dark and dormant, but right now we're in an energetic, positive entropy solar system

Eating, breathing is the source of energy.
I was referring to the Sun.
Order? Which order?
life.
 

Bthoth

*banned*
Yes genetic scrambling, particularly useful in organisms with long generation time, to produce enough variation to cope with raid habitat change.
Scrambling. I never heard of a polymerase scrambling a gene sequence.
I know what a paradigm shift is, I just don't see how you're applying it.
You're still considering genetics as scrambling... about like how you see the solar system and skip accretion
I was referring to the Sun.

life.
Oh yea, you are using a Gravity simulator's rendition. They were wrong about the rotation of galaxies too, as the hubble telescope images proved.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Scrambling. I never heard of a polymerase scrambling a gene sequence.

You're still considering genetics as scrambling... about like how you see the solar system and skip accretion

Oh yea, you are using a Gravity simulator's rendition. They were wrong about the rotation of galaxies too, as the hubble telescope images proved.
Not genetics, sex. The "scrambling' is the mixing of genes from two different organisms as haplod copies from each fuse into a novel diploid genome.

You really are having a hard time following my posts.

Relying on mutation alone is fine if you're a bacterium dividing hourly. Mutated variants accumulate pretty quickly at that rate, producing enough variation to successfully adapt to changing conditions. But if you're a bipedal ape with a twenty year generation time, some sexual "scrambling" to augment mutational variation is useful.
 

Bthoth

*banned*
Not genetics, sex.
Sex is scrambling genes? Sounds like you must make a mess.
The "scrambling' is the mixing of genes from two different organisms as haplod copies from each fuse into a novel diploid genome.

You really are having a hard time following my posts.
yes... they go all over the place.
Relying on mutation alone is fine if you're a bacterium dividing hourly. Mutated variants accumulate pretty quickly at that rate, producing enough variation to successfully adapt to changing conditions.
The single celled systems do mutate far quicker than vast organism. In both cases, evolving over time and the process to the molecular level is still life 'intent to continue'. The living process is still growing and developing to survive. What affects the change is most often the environment, not nature selecting.


But if you're a bipedal ape with a twenty year generation time, some sexual "scrambling" to augment mutational variation is useful.
Like the Vadoma?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
The life is performing even without knowing (thinking about it)
Intent is a willful process. Knowing and thinking is required. Instinct is not intent.
YES..... i see now, by that response, that you are just wanting to fight me and not consider evolution in the first place.
No. You see by that response, I'm indicating that your claim is incorrect. Changing the diet does not cause a change in the heritable genes of the organisms that changed its diet. You are not discussing evolution. Seems to be magic is what you think takes place.
Again, YOU have no idea how evolution works but are like many; it's an accident (random).
Believe whatever you like. I'll just correct your erroneous claims.
The parents are the life within the offspring. You have it backwards again.
Doesn't mean anything or tell me anything. It is possible that there is a communication issue, but you seem set on responding incomprehensibly.

I have been correct in my responses to what you posted. If you meant something else, then clarification is on you.
Genes are just the vehicle, the life (living process) is using the mass to exist/live.
Doesn't mean anything useful in the context of genetics or evolution.
You are literally showing your hand.
Yes. That I understand biology and evolution and you do not appear to.
I know, I am a bit different with comprehending natures processes. I observe the living system based on the energy (light) upon the mass. Not that living systems are random chemical reactions.
No one has been claiming this here. It seems like a straw man that your brought to the party.
I doubt that anything that I write will help you. But I am awaiting the attacks.
I've no reason to attack you. I recognize that you don't seem to know much about biology. I'm not going to waste my time trying to help you learn, but I will correct what I see that is wrong. If you want to call that an attack, you are free to if it makes you feel better.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
There it is.

About like 'natural SELECTION' what is selecting?

The living process naturally by process of being alive.

What selected? What's made the choice?

Just like 'selecting' is by no choice (sourcing).

The living process is naturally in process, without ever thinking about it.
Natural selection is a metaphor for the phenotype by environment interaction driving change in populations. There is no evidence to conclude it is the result of the will or choice of anything.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Sex is scrambling genes? Sounds like you must make a mess.
There is a an insult you claim not to make. Funny how the evidence doesn't fit the claim.
yes... they go all over the place.

The single celled systems do mutate far quicker than vast organism. In both cases, evolving over time and the process to the molecular level is still life 'intent to continue'. The living process is still growing and developing to survive. What affects the change is most often the environment, not nature selecting.
That is natural selection.
Like the Vadoma?
No idea. A tribe from Africa?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
This is close to word salad. I think there must be something wrong with you. I'm out of this discussion.

But if you make more wrong assertions about science, I may intervene to point out for other readers that what you write is rubbish.
I'm coming to agree with this conclusion.
 
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