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The God, Throne, and Lamb of revelations

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The same way that both the father and the Son sit upon one Throne.

But you haven't displayed this using the Greek. Every attempt on your part has been shown to be in error because you're not familiar with the language.


Read the text, brother...if there is more than one throne, then they are listed-out such as they are with the 24 elders.

Read the Greek brother...since there is more than one throne listed, one for each of the 24 elders, one for the Lamb and the one for his god there should be no confusion...;)


Even your brother could not deny that Jesus is being worshiped in this verse.


Sure he did...you're just not paying attention.


And yet you continue to slavishly reply...why is this?


Just hanging around to see if you're going to actually answer those questions Oberon asked of if you're going to continue to run and hide....what will it be, brother?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Rev 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

:shrug:

Let it suffice to say that it's a big throne.
 

Bowman

Active Member
But you haven't displayed this using the Greek. Every attempt on your part has been shown to be in error because you're not familiar with the language.

We have already shown you this in the Greek.

Furthermore, you are completely unable to produce a mainstream rendering which does not say that they are on the same Throne.




Read the Greek brother...since there is more than one throne listed, one for each of the 24 elders, one for the Lamb and the one for his god there should be no confusion...;)

If there were more than one Throne for God, then the scriptures would have listed it...just as it did for the elders...but, it never did...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
We have already shown you this in the Greek.

And you were shown to be in error and when asked questions on Greek Syntax you went silent.

Furthermore, you are completely unable to produce a mainstream rendering which does not say that they are on the same Throne.

The Greek itself says they're not the same throne. If you understand the Greek grammar behind current translations in every bible then you'd realize that such an attempt would be a stupid one. If you ask people to speak to the Greek and they have an understanding of the Greek and it's grammatical rules then what's the point in looking for something to fit your preconceived notion? The answer is...there is no need to do that if you understand the Greek...Try again.



If there were more than one Throne for God, then the scriptures would have listed it...just as it did for the elders...but, it never did...

Rev. 3:21 shows exactly that but you are so unfamiliar with the Greek...as well as what has been explained to you that you simply don't understand your very own scriptures.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
We have already shown you this in the Greek.

Since you are so interested in the greek, let's try this one more time:

If you are right about where Jesus was sitting,why don't we have Jesus καθίσας εν τω θρόνω του πατρός αὐτοῦ rather than Jesus καθίσας μετά του πατρός αὐτοῦ ?

Also, you said:
Give us your best argument why the genitive of both Theos and Jesus do not represent ownership of the singular Throne, which is also genitive, and resides in the very same verse.
Do you know why "throne" in this verse is in the genitive?

And again:

1) You claimed that thronou was a genitive of possession. If this is true what case and noun is epi governing, and why?
2) You claimed that a genitive indicates possession between two nouns, period. Why does NO GRAMMAR OF GREEK LIMIT THE GENITIVE TO THIS USE? ALL of them include possession as just ONE OF MANY possible uses.
3) You claimed that kai links two whole sentences together here. Why are you disagreeing with EVERY GREEK GRAMMAR which states that the position of kai matters
4) If you can read greek, why did you fail to produce in english letters the greek you were reading, and instead copy and paste the transliterated greek from the dictionary forms?
5) Why did you say that the participle is "both verb and adjective" (which merely defines participle) as opposed to stating what is is doing here? Because here it is a substantive which is distinct from the noun to arnio.
6) you stated that "thronou" is a genitive of possession. What this means then is that the lamb is a possession of the throne, i.e. "the throne's lamb" or "the lamb of the throne" because the genitive in a possessive construction is the possessor. So what does it mean to you that under your grammatical analysis the lamb is owned by the throne? This would both make the lamb and the throne distinct, and make the lamb subordinate to the throne.
 

Bowman

Active Member
And you were shown to be in error and when asked questions on Greek Syntax you went silent.

Nope...your brother, however, went completely silent...


The Greek itself says they're not the same throne. If you understand the Greek grammar behind current translations in every bible then you'd realize that such an attempt would be a stupid one. If you ask people to speak to the Greek and they have an understanding of the Greek and it's grammatical rules then what's the point in looking for something to fit your preconceived notion? The answer is...there is no need to do that if you understand the Greek...Try again.

All translators state one Throne.

There are no exceptions.

If there were more than one Throne, then it would have been stated directly such as it is with the 24 elders and their 24 thrones.






Rev. 3:21 shows exactly that but you are so unfamiliar with the Greek...as well as what has been explained to you that you simply don't understand your very own scriptures.

Your brother has abandoned you...
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Your brother has abandoned you...

Names are so much better.

For me, you can refer to me as A_E, Angellous, or as most people here know me, 'Daddy.'

Oberon may not be a 'brother' but you can refer to him as Captain Awesome or Mr. Magnificent.

"Brother" is just confusing for everyone (except for you).
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Dude, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Apparently. It's all part of my plan to abandon various "brothers" I have. I ask questions, they don't get answered, and therefore one can conclude that I have "gone silent" and have "run away" because I am "owned." This of course has nothing to do with continually answering questions and having these answers both misunderstood and often just ignored, while all the time asking questions which are then ignored repeatedly.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Apparently. It's all part of my plan to abandon various "brothers" I have. I ask questions, they don't get answered, and therefore one can conclude that I have "gone silent" and have "run away" because I am "owned." This of course has nothing to do with continually answering questions and having these answers both misunderstood and often just ignored, while all the time asking questions which are then ignored repeatedly.

That's delusional.

Remember what Diogenes the Cynic said when he was about to be "owned...."
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Nope...your brother, however, went completely silent...


When, where?.....Ask your question again since you think it hasn't been answered....OH wait, it's you that has gone silent AGAIN....He just re-posted his questions and you have evaded them once more....



All translators state one Throne.

Actually they don't...but really, who cares, but you, what a translation says considering you don't know or understand the Greek? If you did you'd simply rely on the Greek itself instead of looking to a translation. Even so....you've produce NO translation that states it's "one" throne. All translation of Rev. 3:12 show there to be more than one throne. Try again.....


If there were more than one Throne, then it would have been stated directly such as it is with the 24 elders and their 24 thrones.

It does...right there in Greek. How about you speaking to the Greek? How about you answering Oberon's question? No...you haven't "done" it for we would have seen your response.


Your brother has abandoned you...

Check his previous post. He just responded to you and asked the question you keep avoiding. Admit it...you have nothing else.....:rolleyes:
 

Bowman

Active Member
Names are so much better.

For me, you can refer to me as A_E, Angellous, or as most people here know me, 'Daddy.'

How about 'Willie'....?




Oberon may not be a 'brother' but you can refer to him as Captain Awesome or Mr. Magnificent.

"Brother" is just confusing for everyone (except for you).

Since he is on this forum all day long, every single day, and doesn't seem to have a life outside of it...'24/7' would be a most appropriate nic in his case.
 

Bowman

Active Member
When, where?.....Ask your question again since you think it hasn't been answered....OH wait, it's you that has gone silent AGAIN....He just re-posted his questions and you have evaded them once more....

The G-S rule of Greek grammar.




Actually they don't...but really, who cares, but you, what a translation says considering you don't know or understand the Greek? If you did you'd simply rely on the Greek itself instead of looking to a translation. Even so....you've produce NO translation that states it's "one" throne. All translation of Rev. 3:12 show there to be more than one throne. Try again.....

It does...right there in Greek. How about you speaking to the Greek? How about you answering Oberon's question? No...you haven't "done" it for we would have seen your response.

All translations say one Throne...not two.

Bring forth a translation that says two.





Check his previous post. He just responded to you and asked the question you keep avoiding. Admit it...you have nothing else.....:rolleyes:

Oberon has nothing.

Quit hiding behind him and stand up for yourself.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The G-S rule of Greek grammar.

Show us.

All translations say one Throne...not two.

All Greek behind any translation you can present, which you haven't as of yet, say more than one throne....Try again...

Bring forth a translation that says two.

Done....:facepalm:

Oberon has nothing.

Quit hiding behind him and stand up for yourself.

More excuses. You've failed to answer the questions he's put forth. So the only one hiding is you.....:rolleyes:
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Oberon has nothing.

Quit hiding behind him and stand up for yourself.
Tell me something: When you play solitaire, do you cheat? Because I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and what you are doing here. There isn't anyone who would read these posts and determine you aren't actually the one avoiding questions because you can't read the greek.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Your brother Oberon repeatedly refuses to even discuss the G-S Greek grammar rule, as it proves Jesus' divinity.

Let's watch him run...:rolleyes:
HAHAHA You want to use the Granville Sharp rule HERE!? You realize that the rule only applies to to nouns connected by kai when the first noun/substantive has an article and the second doesn't, right?

τω καθημένω επι του θρόνου και τω αρνίω/to kathemeno epi tou thronou kai to arnio
Not only is this a prepositional phrase combined by kai with a noun, the G-S rule doesn't apply because we have TWO articles.
This isn't me running. It's me laughing.
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Your brother Oberon repeatedly refuses to even discuss the G-S Greek grammar rule, as it proves Jesus' divinity.

Let's watch him run...:rolleyes:


I was waiting for you to list the G-S rule in question but realistically it doesn't apply in this situation...even if you try to force the rule...

Where does Sharp's rule fit?

That would be like if I said 'She saw the boy and girl'

Sorry Sharp's rule does not apply. Obviously the boy and the girl aren't the same person. Nowhere in 5:13 would Sharp's rule apply especially considering it has been established that the one on the throne is not the same as the one standing amongst the elders.. Try again.....
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
That would be like if I said 'She saw the boy and girl'
I'm not sure how useful giving an english counter-example is here. In other words, a speaker of koine would probably say haute ton paida kai ten paida orei/"this girl/she sees the boy and the girl"and use the article before each noun. This is especially true in your example because paida can be masculine or feminine and only the article will tell you which it is.

The more relavent point is what line Bowman is saying the G-S rule applies to. So far, all the greek lines Bowman has copied and pasted (if memory serves) use the article in front of both substantives, which means the rule doesn't apply.
 
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