• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The God of gods

Trimijopulos

Hard-core atheist
Premium Member
1 Corinthians 8:5

“καὶ γὰρ εἴπερ (for even if) εἰσὶ λεγόμενοι θεοὶ (there are so-called gods) εἴτε ἐν οὐρανῷ (whether in heaven) εἴτε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (or on earth), ὥσπερ εἰσὶ θεοὶ πολλοὶ (as there are many gods) καὶ κύριοι πολλοί (and many lords),”

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are many gods and many lords,”


The First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to 53–54 Christian era.
Lords, lords-gods, and gods, were persons very well-known to the ancients. As you may have noticed, at the time the epistle was written there were both earthly and heavenly gods.

The earlier texts mention a God of gods.
Psalm 136:2

Praise the God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), His steadfast love is eternal.

Psalms 136,2.jpg

Passage Deuteronomy 10:17 is very informative.

For the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), and Lord (Adonay) of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: KJV
Deuteronomy 10,17 (2).jpg

Yahweh and the common Elohim gods somehow evolved into the one awesome God, El, who takes no bribes!
― Where, when, and how it happened, that the gods evolved into God?
― In the Near East; approximately 15,000 ago; someone made a joke by saying that the earthly gods climbed ladders and went to live up in the sky.

Relevant article with required evidence, please find attached below.
 

Attachments

  • Occurence of heavenly gods.pdf
    1,005.8 KB · Views: 95

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 8:5

“καὶ γὰρ εἴπερ (for even if) εἰσὶ λεγόμενοι θεοὶ (there are so-called gods) εἴτε ἐν οὐρανῷ (whether in heaven) εἴτε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (or on earth), ὥσπερ εἰσὶ θεοὶ πολλοὶ (as there are many gods) καὶ κύριοι πολλοί (and many lords),”

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are many gods and many lords,”


The First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to 53–54 Christian era.
Lords, lords-gods, and gods, were persons very well-known to the ancients. As you may have noticed, at the time the epistle was written there were both earthly and heavenly gods.

The earlier texts mention a God of gods.
Psalm 136:2

Praise the God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), His steadfast love is eternal.

View attachment 73483

Passage Deuteronomy 10:17 is very informative.

For the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), and Lord (Adonay) of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: KJV
View attachment 73484
Yahweh and the common Elohim gods somehow evolved into the one awesome God, El, who takes no bribes!
― Where, when, and how it happened, that the gods evolved into God?
― In the Near East; approximately 15,000 ago; someone made a joke by saying that the earthly gods climbed ladders and went to live up in the sky.

Relevant article with required evidence, please find attached below.
To live up in the sky is analogous to the term, "blue sky research". Blue Sky Research is not grounded on firm footing; common knowledge and experience. It is often is detached from what we know; rarefied air.

The lessor gods, appear to describe the creative side of the human ego. Say you invented and fabricated a new iron sword that could cut through any copper or bronze sword or armor. Based on the science of the time, this would appear like a gift from the gods, empowering you, like a lessor god to be feared. Such innovations would exceed what you can find in nature or culture, naturally occurring or man made, making it different from nature or man; from the gods.

This creative connection to the unconscious mind; brain firmware, is why most occupations needed for civilization, have a patron god; gives the ego unique creations beyond nature. Mars was the God of iron and war. Iron would find its use in war; Iron Age. Appeal to Mars could also help focus the brain, allowing insight from the sky; blue sky thinking, to win the day. This comes from unconscious data processing, which can makes it into conscious awareness; out of thin air.

Pharaoh was considered a god, since he would visualize the base logistics needed to build pyramids with very primitive technology. This data processing came from the inner self. This is not the gods above pharaoh, since that would imply even beyond the center of his unconscious mind; inner self. That would be require more like a network of computers, acting like it was a type of supercomputer; many inners selves, creating an amplified inner self, for pyramid building. To the layman one would see the impossible made possible.
 

SDavis

Member
1 Corinthians 8:5

“καὶ γὰρ εἴπερ (for even if) εἰσὶ λεγόμενοι θεοὶ (there are so-called gods) εἴτε ἐν οὐρανῷ (whether in heaven) εἴτε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (or on earth), ὥσπερ εἰσὶ θεοὶ πολλοὶ (as there are many gods) καὶ κύριοι πολλοί (and many lords),”

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are many gods and many lords,”


The First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to 53–54 Christian era.
Lords, lords-gods, and gods, were persons very well-known to the ancients. As you may have noticed, at the time the epistle was written there were both earthly and heavenly gods.

The earlier texts mention a God of gods.
Psalm 136:2

Praise the God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), His steadfast love is eternal.

View attachment 73483

Passage Deuteronomy 10:17 is very informative.

For the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), and Lord (Adonay) of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: KJV
View attachment 73484
Yahweh and the common Elohim gods somehow evolved into the one awesome God, El, who takes no bribes!
― Where, when, and how it happened, that the gods evolved into God?
― In the Near East; approximately 15,000 ago; someone made a joke by saying that the earthly gods climbed ladders and went to live up in the sky.

Relevant article with required evidence, please find attached below.
Have you done a study on the Canaanites and the supreme god they served and his sons concerning the people of Earth. Melchizedek was the high priest and King of the supreme god of the Canaanites of the City of Salem. EL /Elohim & Baal & Moloch and a few others are mentioned in the Bible. Yahweh was identified as El / Elohim in scripture. Salem was renamed Jerusalem after El, the god of the Canaanites chose Abraham as His true servant and made a covenant with him. Later during the time of Moses renamed himself Yahweh. Can we get read scripture he does have a tendency to rename not only himself but people.

Have you done a study on the Sumerian gods Enlil / Elil & Enki (whom the Canaanites and Abraham of the Bible were related to. Abraham was from the city of Ur and Ur was a city of ancient Sumer)

EL seems to be traced back to ancient Sumer which according to historians is the oldest civilization. Even then with the ancient Sumerians Elil was a God to be reckoned with and his Ninurta.

And when you read the Bible and read it with understanding there is more than one God, but only one God of the Earth and creator of the humans. In the Book of Genesis 1:26 let us make man in our image ---- 3:22 man has become as one of us ---- 6:1 the sons of God ______ David spoke of two entities, THE Lord and MY Lord Psalms 1:10-1 - David also spoke of the wrath of the SON Psalms 2:12 _______ the Son of God is also mentioned in Daniel and the sons of God mentioned in Job, when not referring to humans.

****It was the early churches who interpreted scripture to mean there is only one God not understanding what the terms actually meant or deliberately overlooking.****
 

Trimijopulos

Hard-core atheist
Premium Member
The lessor gods, appear to describe the creative side of the human ego. Say you invented and fabricated a new iron sword that could cut through any copper or bronze sword or armor. Based on the science of the time, this would appear like a gift from the gods, …
Unfortunately, we have to start from the very beginning: in what way humans were informed of the existence of the gods?

Pharaoh was considered a god,
The same problem here. If the pharaoh was considered a god -in the sense we understand the meaning of the word “god” today- then either the ancient Egyptians were idiots, or they did not understand the term ‘god’ to mean what it means to modern people.

I have been studying the Egyptian texts in the original for more than twenty years and I can assure you that the king along with the ruling elite, the aristocrats, WERE gods. They belonged to the tribe, clan, or race of the bluebloods, they were called “lords” and since the term “lord” ended up meaning god (after it was said that the lords climbed ladders and went to live up in the sky) modern translators insist to translate as “god” the term “lord” whenever it occurs.

Our ancestors were no brainless savages who could not understand that the black clouds bring rain and produced the god of rain. If we are to accuse them of idiocy, we have to support the accusation with evidence, not philosophy and meditation.
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
To live up in the sky is analogous to the term, "blue sky research". Blue Sky Research is not grounded on firm footing; common knowledge and experience. It is often is detached from what we know; rarefied air.

The lessor gods, appear to describe the creative side of the human ego. Say you invented and fabricated a new iron sword that could cut through any copper or bronze sword or armor. Based on the science of the time, this would appear like a gift from the gods, empowering you, like a lessor god to be feared. Such innovations would exceed what you can find in nature or culture, naturally occurring or man made, making it different from nature or man; from the gods.

This creative connection to the unconscious mind; brain firmware, is why most occupations needed for civilization, have a patron god; gives the ego unique creations beyond nature. Mars was the God of iron and war. Iron would find its use in war; Iron Age. Appeal to Mars could also help focus the brain, allowing insight from the sky; blue sky thinking, to win the day. This comes from unconscious data processing, which can makes it into conscious awareness; out of thin air.

Pharaoh was considered a god, since he would visualize the base logistics needed to build pyramids with very primitive technology. This data processing came from the inner self. This is not the gods above pharaoh, since that would imply even beyond the center of his unconscious mind; inner self. That would be require more like a network of computers, acting like it was a type of supercomputer; many inners selves, creating an amplified inner self, for pyramid building. To the layman one would see the impossible made possible.
This is a great OP. God of gods. If you read Genesis 1:26. Let US make Man in OUR image after OUR likeness. Suggesting a plurality in the creation. If we define Creator as God, we must surely accept gods in Judeo-Christian scripture. What was confusing to them in scripture and to us now is why Moses provided commandments to worship the ONE God in Heaven and not the brazen images created by them prevalent in Egypt. It was to accept the authority of the God of gods. That there was ONE person in charge over all. Now Jews, Islam, and Christians alike will cringe at the idea of many gods, but it is because in their history their people needed unity and structure apart from other incorrect polytheistic societies. It is the highest sin condemnable by death to say there was another god other than God in their community. This is precisely why Jesus was crucified according to the Roman Law. He was cast out from even dying a Jew death. In John 10, Jesus explains Psalms 82 that God has called humans 'gods'. He was trying to expand their understanding of scripture apart from just killing anyone who says they are a Son of God. It wasn't wrong to believe that other people like the God of gods existed, it was wrong making that thing or person higher than the God of gods. Jesus acknowledged that His Father was greater than He. He explained that when you do the will of the Father or God of gods, that you will be one with the Father. Meaning that you will be able to do anything the Father can do (create, heal, reveal truths etc.) You should study Joseph Smith's work on reconciling this age old dilemma of who God is. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints gives what I believe a very compelling and logical answer to all of the questions most Christians struggle with.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1 Corinthians 8:5

“καὶ γὰρ εἴπερ (for even if) εἰσὶ λεγόμενοι θεοὶ (there are so-called gods) εἴτε ἐν οὐρανῷ (whether in heaven) εἴτε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (or on earth), ὥσπερ εἰσὶ θεοὶ πολλοὶ (as there are many gods) καὶ κύριοι πολλοί (and many lords),”

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are many gods and many lords,”


The First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to 53–54 Christian era.
Lords, lords-gods, and gods, were persons very well-known to the ancients. As you may have noticed, at the time the epistle was written there were both earthly and heavenly gods.

The earlier texts mention a God of gods.
Psalm 136:2

Praise the God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), His steadfast love is eternal.

View attachment 73483

Passage Deuteronomy 10:17 is very informative.

For the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), and Lord (Adonay) of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: KJV
View attachment 73484
Yahweh and the common Elohim gods somehow evolved into the one awesome God, El, who takes no bribes!
― Where, when, and how it happened, that the gods evolved into God?
― In the Near East; approximately 15,000 ago; someone made a joke by saying that the earthly gods climbed ladders and went to live up in the sky.

Relevant article with required evidence, please find attached below.
There are a number of henotheistic references earlier in the bible than Psalms ─ for example

Exodus 15:11 Who is like thee, O Lord, among the gods?

Numbers 33:4 upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.

Judges 11:23 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.

And most famously, Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
 

TiggerII

Active Member
Some trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, faithful Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods (or a god) include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

(also John 10:34, 35 - NEB; CEV; TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”

They saw nothing wrong with calling certain men “gods” if they were trying to follow God and be his representatives or ambassadors. Just because it sounds strange to our ears today in modern English is no reason to ignore the facts!
 

justaguy313

Active Member
Premium Member
There are many deities if you think about it, but the One True God that is Allmighty is still only One.

When Moses peace be upon him was speaking to the burning bush and he asked God who he is, God responded to him in hebrew with ehye ’ăšer ’ehye or I am that I am


 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Praise the God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), His steadfast love is eternal.
That's a misrepresentation of Psalm 136: 2, the word elohim only occurs once in the Hebrew [אלהי האלהים] (elah of the elohim)
For the LORD (Yahweh) your God (Elohim) is God (Elohim) of gods (Elohim), and Lord (Adonay) of lords, a great God (El), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: KJV
Another misrepresentation, again the word elohim only occurs once in the verse
יהוה אלהיכם = YHWH Elah of you
אלהי האלהים = elah of the elohim, same as for Psalm 136:2

Yahweh and the common Elohim gods somehow evolved into the one awesome God, El, who takes no bribes!
That interpretation isn't supported by the Tanak. El is a title of power which can be applied to the dominant member of a group.

(A Psalm of Asaph.) God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psalms 82:1, KJV

מזמור לאסף אלהים נצב בעדת אל בקרב אלהים ישפט

מזמור לאסף = psalm of asaph
אלהים נצב בעדת = elohim stands in congregation
אל בקרב אלהים ישפט = el among elohim judges
 
Last edited:

justaguy313

Active Member
Premium Member
That's a misrepresentation of Psalm 136: 2, the word elohim only occurs once in the Hebrew [אלהי האלהים] (elah of the elohim)

Another misrepresentation, again the word elohim only occurs once in the verse
יהוה אלהיכם = YHWH Elah of you
אלהי האלהים = elah of the elohim, same as for Psalm 136:2


That interpretation isn't supported by the Tanak. El is a title of power which can be applied to the dominant member of a group.

(A Psalm of Asaph.) God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
Psalms 82:1, KJV

מזמור לאסף אלהים נצב בעדת אל בקרב אלהים ישפט

מזמור לאסף = psalm of asaph
אלהים נצב בעדת = elohim stands in congregation
אל בקרב אלהים ישפט = el among elohim judges

 

Monty

Active Member
This is a great OP. God of gods. If you read Genesis 1:26. Let US make Man in OUR image after OUR likeness. Suggesting a plurality in the creation.
And Exodus 20:3 describes the hierarchy of those gods and goddesses. And presumably the male creator god (Gen 1:26) is the boss god (Ex 20:3) and created a woman in the image and likeness of one of the goddesses who was at the meeting described in Gen 1:26.
 

justaguy313

Active Member
Premium Member
Ha shem literally means the name. It's a title that is used in place of the proper name of YHWH.

It is also a name of the tribe of the Arab clan of Quraysh to which Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his Holy family belonged-Bani Hashem. It is also a name of the Qaim of Ale Muhammad-Abdullah Hashem, Aba Sadiq from him is peace. He is the one who speaks in the video that I attached to the post.

In Judaism, when Moses (PBUH) asked God what His name is, and what he should call God
when the people ask him, God simply responds to Moses (PBUH) by saying: “ I AM THAT I AM”
( Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh) ; and He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: ‘I AM (Ehyeh)
hath sent me unto you.’ ” Jewish traditions mention that to pronounce or write the true name of
God is utterly prohibited and they even state: “ He who pronounces the Name with its own letters has
n o p art i n t he w orld t o c ome!” When referring t o “ the name” t he term H a-Shem ( השם , h šm) , which
means “The (Greater) Name” is used. It is only within Shia Islam and Judaism that we have these
two names that are abbreviated to four letters and forbidden to be pronounced.


Book Goal of the wise by Aba Sadiq fhip, door 36
 
Last edited:

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
It is also a name of the tribe of the Arab clan of Quraysh to which Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his Holy family belonged-Bani Hashem. It is also a name of the Qaim of Ale Muhammad-Abdullah Hashem, Aba Sadiq from him is peace. He is the one who speaks in the video that I attached to the post.

From wikishia.net:

Feeding people in the time of famine in Mecca and founding the rule of sharing the benefits of trade with the poor made [Hashim b. 'Abd Manaf b. Qusayy b. Kilab b. Murra] famous.

The Ebionites were a group of Messianics who rejected Paul and his doctrine. Ebionite is from אבין, meaning poor or needy. Also, there's no mention of Paul or his doctrine in the Quran.
 
Top