The Garden of Eden

[1213]

being referred to as one of the "Sons of God" .. in context of the passage .. and the Bible in general .. makes one a God.

Sorry, I don't think that is true, because Bible tells that only one true God exists. Also, disciples of Jesus can be children of God, does it mean they are gods?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be-come God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
… we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:4-6

YHWH is an interesting God of the Bible .. also one of the "Sons of God" like Ha Satan, Marduk, Chemosh .. and a host of others do battle in the Bible to see who becomes Chief God on Earth. .. usurping the position of EL -- who remains in heaven .. head of the divine council .. God Supreme - Most High - El Shaddai - Father - Creator - God of the Patriarchs .. and so on. El has 70 sons .. Ea has some as well who do Battle .

The problem with that is, I don't think Bible supports your claims.

YHWH once loses a battle to the War God of the Moabites ..

Sorry, I think you have not understood the story correctly, if you think so.

YHWH is not the God of Jesus though ..

By what is written in the Bible, I think you are wrong. For example in this The Lord who said "sit on my right hand" is Yahweh.

He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, Until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?' "If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?"
Matt. 22:43-45

 

[shunyadragon]

Sorry, I don't think that is true, because Bible tells that only one true God exists. Also, disciples of Jesus can be children of God, does it mean they are gods?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be-come God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
… we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:4-6

The problem with that is, I don't think Bible supports your claims.

Sorry, I think you have not understood the story correctly, if you think so.

By what is written in the Bible, I think you are wrong. For example in this The Lord who said "sit on my right hand" is Yahweh.

He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, Until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?' "If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?"
Matt. 22:43-45

The problem is your selectively citing the New Testament, and beliefs in polytheism and Henotheism is the early history of the Hebrews recorded in the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch was copilled after ~600 BCE. The Hebrew tribes became Monotheistic after 600 BCE.

As far as the New Testament you neglecting references like the following the Trinity as separate distinct Gods;

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

The problem involves describing God the Father and Jesus Son of God, and Mary, mother of God and Queen of Heaven as Gods in anthropomorphic terms. The citations you cite are the reasons some churches and believers reject the Trinity.

 

[Sargonski]

Sorry, I don't think that is true, because Bible tells that only one true God exists. Also, disciples of Jesus can be children of God, does it mean they are gods?

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to be-come God’s children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13
… we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.
1 Cor. 8:4-6

The problem with that is, I don't think Bible supports your claims.

Sorry, I think you have not understood the story correctly, if you think so.

By what is written in the Bible, I think you are wrong. For example in this The Lord who said "sit on my right hand" is Yahweh.

He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call him Lord, saying, 'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, Until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?' "If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?"
Matt. 22:43-45

Holy blind to the Truth Robin .. . Why would you quote the New Testament .. as if this has something to do with the identity of "Sons of God" in the Old Testament from the perspective of an Israelite living in 1000 BC ? From where did you get this deception .. likely from one of the many "wolves in sheeps clothing" sites .. desperate to apologize for the hands of the Devil

The meaning of the phrase "disciples of Jesus - children of God" to a first century reader in a book that was not written and did not exist in King Solomon's day has absolutely 100% of nothing to do with what the phrase "Sons of God" actually means - in context of the story of Job.

This deception is perhaps difficult to see .. but that the passages have nothing to do with each other is not , sugesting a limited ability to identify the words of the deceiver .. or do you not believe that the Devil has power .. a question you have avoided and not addressed properly .. this avoidance perhaps an effort at self deception as it gets worse .. as there is far more that shows us that these "Sons of God are not humans .. in which case explain what exactly they are if not Gods .. some kind of in between creature or what ?

In Job a large number of these "Sons of God" are up in heaven for a celebration of the Most High God. At this point humans are out of the question .. these are not men according to a reader in 1000 BC .. a reader who believes in many gods .. and worships most of those Gods . .and has other stories in his head (stories not from the New Testament) by which to reference this scene .. These are divinities up in heaven .. this being completely normal .. the reader not having your belief that there is only one God .. That belief not even existing in the mind of the reader.

Then we have an conversation between the Supreme God - as a Father to a Son .. asking

“Where have you come from?”[al] And Satan answered God,[am] “From roving about[an] on the earth, and from walking back and forth across it.”[ao] 8 So the God said to Satan, “Have you considered[ap] my servant Job? There is no[aq] one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and turns away[ar] from evil.”

9 Then Satan answered the God “Is it for nothing that Job fears God?[as] 10 Have you[at] not made a hedge[au] around him and his household and all that he has on every side? You have blessed[av] the work of his hands, and his livestock[aw] have increased[ax] in the land. 11 But[ay] extend your hand and strike[az] everything he has, and he will no doubt[ba] curse you[bb] to your face!”

12 So the Lord said to Satan, “All right then,[bc] everything he has is[bd] in your power.[be] Only do not extend your hand against the man himself!”[bf] So Satan went out[bg] from the presence of the Lord.[bh]

The first thing to notice this God is not all knowing .. has to ask what his Son has been up to. We learn of this Son of God's job title .. Ha Satan .. the tester of Souls. We learn that Ha Satan is given power over this fellow .. and later on in the story we find that this Divine Son of God has mighty powers one would expect from a God .. able to bring fire down from the sky and various other things. We find that this God has his own agency .. but yet is subordinate to the Father .. Does not act outside of the Will of the Father .. and in fact in the OT story .. this God never acts outside of the will of the Father .. and the same is true on the first page of the NT .. when the tester of souls tests Jesus .. once again at the behest of the Almighty God.. assuming this is the same God testing Jesus that Tested Job.

Ha Satan -- "Tester of Souls" .. the ability to go back and forth from Earth to heaven at will .. who can converse with the Almighty as a son to a Father . making a bet with his father in the story of Job .. the tester of souls thinking he knows a thing or two about Job that God Doesn't know .. God Accepts the bet .. and the gauntlet is set.

This is not a description of a Human .. not in Job .. nor any other mention of this term "Bene Elohim" -- Sons of God .. and while there was desperate debate for centuries on the meaning (none of the debaters trying to say NT factored into the equation however .. so a complete deception on the party of your source) desperate to apologize for the obvious.

In modern times that debate is no longer waged in serious circles .. since we now know the religious beliefs of all the peoples at the time .. including the Israelites .. and know what these people thought "Bene Elohim" meant. and it means .. what it says "Sons of God(s)" and we know exacty what everyone at the time thought that term meant .. in quite excruciating detail.

If you went into one of the many Temples of YHWH during the time of Solomon .. what do you find -- and how many bong hits of todays product is the equivalent of the "Heavenly Hash" at the time of Great King Solomon ? Jah Rastafa ? .. Do you believe in the power of Satan or do you not believe the Bible ?

 

[1213]

Holy blind to the Truth Robin .. . Why would you quote the New Testament .. as if this has something to do with the identity of "Sons of God" in the Old Testament from the perspective of an Israelite living in 1000 BC ?

That is the Biblical teaching. And I rather remain in what is said in the Bible, than believe your doctrine.

In Biblical point of view, if one is called a son of God, it does not mean that the person is also a true god.

making a bet with his father in the story of Job

There is no bet in story of Job.

 

[1213]

The problem is your selectively citing the New Testament, and beliefs in polytheism and Henotheism is the early history of the Hebrews recorded in the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch was copilled after ~600 BCE. The Hebrew tribes became Monotheistic after 600 BCE.

By what is said in the Bible, the Biblical world view has always had only one true God.

As far as the New Testament you neglecting references like the following the Trinity as separate distinct Gods;

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

The problem involves describing God the Father and Jesus Son of God, and Mary, mother of God and Queen of Heaven as Gods in anthropomorphic terms. The citations you cite are the reasons some churches and believers reject the Trinity.

Trinity is not a Biblical doctrine, that is why it would be good to reject it. By what is said in the Bible, there is only one true God. And the God is greater than Jesus.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5
You heard how I told you, 'I go away, and I come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I said 'I am going to my Father;' for the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

It is sad when Christians don't believe what Jesus said.

 

[Sargonski]

That is the Biblical teaching. And I rather remain in what is said in the Bible, than believe your doctrine.

In Biblical point of view, if one is called a son of God, it does not mean that the person is also a true god.

There is no bet in story of Job.

You are wrong .. your talk of "Biblical Teaching" is pure mind bending nonsense. I gave you the Biblical Teaching .. on the "sons of God" .. crying out that some other teaching in the New Testiment says something different .. thus represents the Biblical point of View .. rather than the Biblical point of view of the Old Testiment .. the time when the scripture was written .. is pure decepticon tactic.

It is your Doctrine that is "UnBiblical" .. if we are considering the Jewish Bible as .. "The Bible" and in particular .. "The Bible" at the time of Solomon BC .. when the "Sons of God" references were made.

In all those references .. what is being referred to is a being with God like Powers .. and NOT a human as your false doctrine wants to suggest.

Forget about the term God .. as you have yet to define what you mean by God .. dispite numerous requests .. thus the term is meaningless for the moment .. untill such time as you explain why a being with the powers of Ha Satan is not a God.

What part of .. the claim that the "Sons of God" are human agents .. is a false lie .. do you not understand ? -- and thus if these beings are not human .. what are they if not Gods .. having God -like powers .... what does the Hebrew Scripture Teach --- in 900 BC ? and what is a "True God" if not an entity with God-like powers .. able to traverse between earth and heaven .. rain fire down from the sky .. influence humans through Will.

Define what a True God is .. how many times must this be asked of you.. how many times will you continue to hide from the Truth .. and explain what kind of Creature Ha Satan is in relation to your Biblical definition of True God .. keeping in mind that this definition must be the definition of the Israelites in 900 BC .. in order to be called "Biblical "

 

[1213]

...Define what a True God is...

For example the highest, the greatest, the creator of life.

 

[shunyadragon]

For example the highest, the greatest, the creator of life.

. . . which one as claimed in many contradictory beliefs as to which God is the One True God.

 

[Anne1]

You have a very narrow biased view toward other religions. The pot should not call the pot black.

During all the long 2,500 years of Buddhism slaves staggered by the Buddhist monasteries, the monks inside concentrated on self-enlightenment.

The monks wanted to empty their minds of thinking. In the meantime, slaves in the millions upon millions died, half bent over in misery. Women hobbled near the monasteries, their feet bound and bleeding.

The the poor and the starving and the whipped and the broken and the desperate worked to death in fields in full view of the monasteries, millions upon millions upon millions, the Buddhist monks never organized anything to change society.

For 2,500 years there was no movement to stop slavery. No movement to truly aid the poor. No attempt to pass human rights. Nothing.

 

[Anne1]

It is sad when Christians don't believe what Jesus said.

Christians have always rejected taking a single line from scripture and not being aided by tradition in interpreting it.

 

[Muffled]

Why did God evict Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden? Christian dogma holds that God kicked them out because they violated his directive not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But that’s not the whole story. Here’s what the Bible actually says:

God didn’t want them to have both knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, so he threw them out to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life. So the moral of this story is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance that humanity had for eternal life by getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden and thereby no longer being able to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament was written-- except for the book of Daniel. That is the only book of the Old Testament that specifically describes the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise-- all four of those things.

Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what the world of biblical scholarship said about the matter more than 25 years ago:


There’s plenty of evidence from the biblical text itself that on the whole the Old Testament authors didn’t believe in the New Testament notion of the resurrection. Here’s an excerpt from the Psalms:

If God doesn’t remember those who are dead, then he can’t forgive their sins. If the dead are cut off from God’s hand, then he can’t resurrect them.

Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the author’s vision of the end of time:


What is most significant about the author’s words is what they do not say. There’s no mention of the resurrection of the dead, of the last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. But here’s what he says will happen:


That’s a description of farmers living in peace with the farmers of other nations. That’s not a description of angelic beings playing laudatory music in the vault of heaven.

In Zechariah Chapter 14 the author describes his vision of the end of time. Prior to that time the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city:


But God will appear and will battle against the gathered nations:


God will bring about the destruction of Jerusalem’s enemies. And what then?


What is the Festival of Booths? It’s a Jewish religious observance. So in Zechariah’s vision everyone who survives the existential battle for Jerusalem will ultimately be converted to Judaism. And they will be required to go into the city of Jerusalem every year to observe the Festival of Booths. As far as I am aware there are no Christian sects that observe the Festival of Booths.

And as in Isaiah there is no mention anywhere in Zechariah of the resurrection of the dead, of a last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. The visions of these two very well known Old Testament authors have literally nothing in common with the New Testament vision of the end of time.

The book of Job has the longest discourse on man’s place in the universe of any book in the Bible. Job’s life was destroyed. He lost his oxen and asses to the Sabeans. His sheep and servants were consumed by fire. His camels were carried off by the Chaldeans. His sons and daughters were all killed when a great wind destroyed the house in which they were dining. And finally Satan afflicted Job with suppurating sores that covered his entire body.
Job debates the cause of his plight with several other men and claims that he was wrongly punished. But at no time throughout the discussion is there any mention of rewards or punishments in the afterlife. At the very end (Job 42:1-6) Job confesses to God that he was mistaken about God’s purposes. God accepts his apology and returns to Job everything that he had lost-- in this life, not in any version of an afterlife.

The Christian dogma of Original Sin holds that the terrible crime committed by Adam and Eve-- that of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-- has propagated throughout the entire human genome. As a result every human who has ever lived has been tainted with that indelible stain and is therefore utterly steeped in evil.
But as we’ve seen above, the story of the garden of Eden is less about the knowledge of good and evil than it is about eternal life. From what God actually said in Genesis 3:22, God would have been perfectly content to allow the humans to have knowledge of good and evil so long as they didn’t also have eternal life.

The doctrine of Original Sin is predicated on a complete misreading of the otherwise charming story of the garden of Eden. And it is one that has utterly warped the Christian understanding of human nature.

I believe the Adamic race is not all of humanity. Also the chance for eternal life was always going to come with Jesus. The Garden of Eden is just a teaser.

 

[Muffled]

. . . which one as claimed in many contradictory beliefs as to which God is the One True God.

I believe the One who is testifying that He is God is the real one and the others are speculations.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe the One who is testifying that He is God is the real one and the others are speculations.

As believed by others who view your beliefs are speculations, It is very subjective based on fallible human judgements of ancient tribal texts.

 

[jimb]

As believed by others who view your beliefs are speculations, It is very subjective based on fallible human judgements of ancient tribal texts.

For the umpteenth time (from several translations)... Hebrews 11:1,

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."
"Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen."
"Faith means being sure of the things we hope for. And faith means knowing that something is real even if we do not see it."
"Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists."

Claiming that faith is simply speculations is simply wrong and not subjective.

 

[shunyadragon]

For the umpteenth time (from several translations)... Hebrews 11:1,

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."
"Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen."
"Faith means being sure of the things we hope for. And faith means knowing that something is real even if we do not see it."
"Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists."

Is there something that you can't (or won't) understand about this verse? Claiming that faith is simply speculations is simply wrong and not subjective.

It is obvious that you lack faith! Your approach strikes me as nonsensical as saying that love doesn't exist because you don't love someone.

You can cite scripture a hundred times like many others that believe differently, again . . .

As believed by others who view your beliefs are speculations, It is very subjective based on fallible human judgements of ancient tribal texts.

 

[jimb]

You can cite scripture a hundred times like many others that believe differently, again . . .

As believed by others who view your beliefs are speculations, It is very subjective based on fallible human judgements of ancient tribal texts.

I don't consider what the Bible says to be subjective or fallible It has been accepted by millions of people for roughly 2,000 years. Compare that to your (unsubstantiated) opinion.

Again, if a person has never loved another person, they could present the same fallacious argument as you are presenting.

In the words of Bob Dylan: "don't criticize what CAN'T understand"

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't consider what the Bible says to be subjective or fallible It has been accepted by millions of people for roughly 2,000 years. Compare that to your

. . . with many diverse conflicting contradictory claims of the interpretation of the Bible, and may churches each claiming the only true interpretation and disagree with you. Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism is accepted by millions and do not share your beliefs.

(unsubstantiated) opinion.

It is obvious that you don't understand real faith. Again, if a person has never loved another person, they could present the same fallacious argument as you are presenting.

Your lack of faith is tragic! In the words of Bob Dylan: "don't criticize what CAN'T understand"

You condemn and criticize all who do not believe as you do, and of course do not understand scripture as you do.

You can cite scripture a hundred times like many others that believe differently, again . . .

As believed by others who view your beliefs are speculations, It is very subjective based on fallible human judgements of ancient tribal texts.

 

[Colt]

Why did God evict Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden? Christian dogma holds that God kicked them out because they violated his directive not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But that’s not the whole story. Here’s what the Bible actually says:

God didn’t want them to have both knowledge of good and evil and eternal life, so he threw them out to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life. So the moral of this story is that Adam and Eve blew the one chance that humanity had for eternal life by getting themselves kicked out of the garden of Eden and thereby no longer being able to eat the fruit of the tree of life.

And that is the perspective from which the entire Old Testament was written-- except for the book of Daniel. That is the only book of the Old Testament that specifically describes the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, eternal life, and paradise-- all four of those things.

Don’t take my word for it. Here’s what the world of biblical scholarship said about the matter more than 25 years ago:


There’s plenty of evidence from the biblical text itself that on the whole the Old Testament authors didn’t believe in the New Testament notion of the resurrection. Here’s an excerpt from the Psalms:

If God doesn’t remember those who are dead, then he can’t forgive their sins. If the dead are cut off from God’s hand, then he can’t resurrect them.

Chapter 2 of the book of Isaiah describes the author’s vision of the end of time:


What is most significant about the author’s words is what they do not say. There’s no mention of the resurrection of the dead, of the last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. But here’s what he says will happen:


That’s a description of farmers living in peace with the farmers of other nations. That’s not a description of angelic beings playing laudatory music in the vault of heaven.

In Zechariah Chapter 14 the author describes his vision of the end of time. Prior to that time the enemies of Jerusalem will surround the city:


But God will appear and will battle against the gathered nations:


God will bring about the destruction of Jerusalem’s enemies. And what then?


What is the Festival of Booths? It’s a Jewish religious observance. So in Zechariah’s vision everyone who survives the existential battle for Jerusalem will ultimately be converted to Judaism. And they will be required to go into the city of Jerusalem every year to observe the Festival of Booths. As far as I am aware there are no Christian sects that observe the Festival of Booths.

And as in Isaiah there is no mention anywhere in Zechariah of the resurrection of the dead, of a last judgment, of eternal life, or of paradise. The visions of these two very well known Old Testament authors have literally nothing in common with the New Testament vision of the end of time.

The book of Job has the longest discourse on man’s place in the universe of any book in the Bible. Job’s life was destroyed. He lost his oxen and asses to the Sabeans. His sheep and servants were consumed by fire. His camels were carried off by the Chaldeans. His sons and daughters were all killed when a great wind destroyed the house in which they were dining. And finally Satan afflicted Job with suppurating sores that covered his entire body.
Job debates the cause of his plight with several other men and claims that he was wrongly punished. But at no time throughout the discussion is there any mention of rewards or punishments in the afterlife. At the very end (Job 42:1-6) Job confesses to God that he was mistaken about God’s purposes. God accepts his apology and returns to Job everything that he had lost-- in this life, not in any version of an afterlife.

The Christian dogma of Original Sin holds that the terrible crime committed by Adam and Eve-- that of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-- has propagated throughout the entire human genome. As a result every human who has ever lived has been tainted with that indelible stain and is therefore utterly steeped in evil.
But as we’ve seen above, the story of the garden of Eden is less about the knowledge of good and evil than it is about eternal life. From what God actually said in Genesis 3:22, God would have been perfectly content to allow the humans to have knowledge of good and evil so long as they didn’t also have eternal life.

The doctrine of Original Sin is predicated on a complete misreading of the otherwise charming story of the garden of Eden. And it is one that has utterly warped the Christian understanding of human nature.

They weren't kicked out; the garden was overrun by Nodites who were furious about Eve mating with Cains real father.

 

[jimb]

They weren't kicked out; the garden was overrun by Nodites who were furious about Eve mating with Cains real father.

 

[shunyadragon]

You do everything you can to avoid understanding the truth. I feel very, very sorry for you. Your glibness is your downfall.

You condemn and criticize all who do not believe as you do, and of course do not understand scripture as you do.

You can cite scripture a hundred times like many others that believe differently, again . . .

As believed by others who view your beliefs are speculations, It is very subjective based on fallible human judgements of ancient tribal texts.