The Futhark

[The Kilted Heathen]

I noticed a few threads for bindrunes (and hopefully my video of that will be redirected here), so I figured I would also share my video on the Futhark. This has both Elder and Younger Futhark, their names and meanings, as well as a possible elemental application for some of them.

 

[Hildeburh]

Here's my thoughts

There is confusion in the neopagan community regarding the Germanic runes because there is a great deal of misinformation online. So here is a quick introduction to the runes and a few corrections for your video.

There are three sets of runes, not two, commonly used by modern Heathens for a variety of purposes; the Elder futhark, Younger futhark and the Old English futhorc. These runes are a linguistic script; the Elder futhorc represents proto Norse, the Younger futhark Old Norse and the Anglo Saxon Futhorc Old English.

There are four rune poems, all written after Christianisation, there are two for the Younger futhark: the Norwegian Rune Poem (sometimes called the Old Norse Rune Poem) and the Icelandic Rune Poem, one for the futhorc; the Old English Rune Poem (which is the earliest) and the fourth is known as the Abecedarium Nordmannicum fragment. There is no poem for the Elder futhark we have no idea what the Elder futhark runes meant, their meanings have been extrapolated from later rune poems and their names have been reconstructed by historical linguists.

Which version of the younger futhark are you discussing, there are three slightly different versions? However, there are only two with surviving poems (see above) and the meanings differ on some runes considerably. The majority of the rune meanings you attribute to the Elder futhark and some of the meanings you have attributed to the Younger futhark derive from the Old English Rune Poem.

Here are a few examples from your video:

The Úr rune of the Younger futhark does not equate to wealth, power or the auroch that would be the Ur rune of the Old English futhorc.

Old English Rune Poem (OERP) Ur =
The aurochs is proud and has great horns;it is a very savage beast and fights with its horns; a great ranger of the moors, it is a creature of mettle.

As opposed to:
Icelandic Rune Poem (IRP) Úr =
Shower, Lamentation of the clouds and ruin of the hay-harves and abomination of the shepherd.
OR
Norwegian Rune Poem (NRP) Úr =
Dross comes from bad iron; the reindeer often races over the frozen snow.

Where did you get the idea that the Thurs rune refers to Thor? The poems bare not relationship to Thor. The two Younger futhark rune verses are as follows;
NRP=Giant causes anguish to women; misfortune makes few men cheerful.
IRP=Torture of women and cliff-dweller and husband of a giantess.

The Óss rune in the NRP and the IRP have completely different meanings in the IRP the meaning is quite clearly Odin.
IRP Óss = God Aged Gautr and prince of Ásgardr and lord of Valhalla. (Gautr being a byname of Odin and lord of Valhalla could be none other than Odin)

The kaun rune of the younger futhark does not equate to fire that would be the cen rune of the Old English futhorc.

OERP cen=
The torch is known to every living man by its pale, bright flame; it always burns where princes sit within.

Younger futhark kaun=
NRP =Ulcer is fatal to children; death makes a corpse pale.
IRP =Disease fatal to children - and painful spot - and abode of mortification.

The runes perþ and algiz are not only found in the Elder futhark they are found in the futhorc, as you should know as you read the meaning of the peorth (from the futhorc) from the Old English Rune Poem:
"Peorth is a source of recreation and amusement to the great, where warriors sit blithely together in the banqueting-hall"

There is no Ehwaz rune in the Younger futhark but there is in the futhorc and the meaning horse is derived solely from the OERP.
.
Rune poems stanzas translations from:
Rune Poems

May I suggest a reading list for you or others interested in furthering their knowledge
without pseudo-history or rampant UPG:

Sweyn Plowright, The Rune Primer: A Down to Earth Guide to the Runes
Stephen Pollington, Rudiments of Runelore
R. Page, Introduction to English Runes
The sounds of Proto-Norse and the Elder Fuþark

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There is confusion in the neopagan community regarding the Germanic runes because there is a great deal of misinformation online.

Oh, quite; most of my information is from Huginn's Heathen Hof (the head of that organization is a pretty knowledgeable Anthropology major), rune workshops from Einar Selvik, videos from the folk at Grimfrost in Sweden, and just a smidge of interpretive correlation that could be considered UPG, but not necessarily a bad thing. Allow me to explain:

The Úr rune of the Younger futhark does not equate to wealth, power or the auroch that would be the Ur rune of the Old English futhorc.

The overall theme can be taken for power, as a theme found in all three poems. The auroch is a powerful creature, rain has power over the crops, and dross (slag) has power over the strength and temperature control of forged metals. So while the literal meaning is different depending on the poem, the symbolic meaning can be found throughout.

Where did you get the idea that the Thurs rune refers to Thor?

True, while the poems don't mention Thor by name, he is half-giant, as well as the bane of giants. What I more meant is that it is often attributed to Thor in Modern Heathenry; Mjolnirs are often emblazoned with a Thurs rune, and even in Old Norse enchantments, repetitions of Thurs were used to invoke Thor (as well as things like repetitions of Tyr to stand for the god Tyr.)

The Óss rune in the NRP and the IRP have completely different meanings in the IRP the meaning is quite clearly Odin.

Quite true, Iceland's poem did tie Óss specifically to Odin, however it's name is that for a single member of the Æsir, rather than Odin alone (e.g. Thor is the óss of thunder). In the video, though, I just addressed Ansuz's association with Odin, as those who use the Elder Futhark more tend to use it just as a designation for Odin.

The kaun rune of the younger futhark does not equate to fire that would be the cen rune of the Old English futhorc.

It doesn't relate to a torch, but I can tell you from experience that an ulcer certainly feels like a fire in your belly; as with Urs the symbolism of the rune can be taken as burning, damage, or fire. All things mention burn in their own regards; ulcers, torches, disease and fever, etc.

The runes perþ and algiz are not only found in the Elder futhark they are found in the futhorc, as you should know as you read the meaning of the peorth (from the futhorc) from the Old English Rune Poem:

They are in the Elder Futhark and the Old English futhorc, yes, but not the Younger Futhark. The only poem with it's meaning is from the Anglo-Saxon poem, though, not the Old English one.

There is no Ehwaz rune in the Younger futhark but there is in the futhorc and the meaning horse is derived solely from the OERP.

No, the only poem for the Ehwaz is from the Anglo-Saxon source as well. But the name alone "ehwaz" is Proto-Germanic for horse. Unfortunately, the only copy from the Old English Runic Poem was lost in a fire in 1731, and all that remains are reproductions based on a facsimile of it.

 

[Hildeburh]

Just as the Norwegian Rune poem is also called the Old Norse Rune, the OERP and Anglo Saxon Rune Poem are one and the same. You will find these names used interchangeably, though the neo pagan authors seem to prefer the to use the term Anglo-Saxon Rune Poem (ASRP) and academics OERP. As previously stated there is one poem for the futhorc, the OERP/ASRP is the name of the mnemonic (poem) the runes are known as either the Anglo Saxon runes or the futhorc. I understand this is complicated which is why I provided sources.


Fire is a bit of a theme with rune poems the NRP was also lost in a fire in the 13th century and survives as a 17th century copy. The OERP was copied before the fire but unfortunately the original manuscript was burnt and the IRP is 15th century. I guess libraries were not terribly fire safe back in the day, lucky for us they were copied or we would only have one rune poem and a fragment.

I think you are reaching with a few your interpretations but it is a common problem, many neo pagans who divine with Germanic runes don't fully understand the cultural origin of the scripts, the poems and their differences. If you look at the vast majority of meanings ascribed to the Elder futhark, and by some people to the Younger futhark, they are heavily influenced by the OERP. There are three reasons people borrow heavily from the OERP; firstly it is the most complete rune poem, secondly it is the earliest rune poem and lastly it is not quite as cryptic as the NRP and the IRP.

In respect to the NRP and IRP Ur rune, you need to look a little closer, take the OERP out of the equation, and consider the similar themes of the poems- “ dross ruins metal” “too much rain ruins crops”, reading that as power is quite a stretch. The second couplet in the NRP is often ignored because the thematic relationship between the two couplets is not understood. The NRP and the IRP contain cultural insights but they are cryptic, so what generally happens is an unrelated meaning is ascribed to the rune or the meaning is borrowed from the OERP.

In regard to the Kuan rune the ulcers discussed in the NRP are more likely to be ulcerated skin wounds from trauma or infection, it is unlikely that your average Viking would understand a burning belly ache could be caused by a gastric ulcer. Both the NRP and the IRP stanzas on Kuan relate to disease, sickness and death, that seems fairly plain.

Yes, Óss is singular and denotes a god of the Aesir in Old Norse but I think the IRP is fairly clear that the Óss in this particular case is Odin.

A þurs is an unpleasant giant or ogre as made pretty clear by the following rune stanzas.

RP Thurs =
Giant causes anguish to women; misfortune makes few men cheerful.
IRP Thurs =
Torture of women and cliff-dweller and husband of a giantess.

It is also clear from Eddic poem Skírnismál that the Thurs were considered to be bad business, Skirnir threatened to curse Gerdr if she would not marry Freyr:

“I carve for you an ogre (þurs) and three staves: evil and madness and hatefulness”.

It's a leap to associate Thor with the Thurs rune because he fights giants and is the son of Jörð. Quite a few of the Aesir are related by blood or marriage to the Jotnar, it's a pretty tangled genealogy. Modern Mjölnirs may be emblazoned with the Thurs rune but that is a modern practice which has little bearing on the meaning of a rune in the NRP and IRP.

Please provide a reference for the Thurs rune being used in repetition to "invoke" Thor, I think you will find that it is UPG. I know of one example in futhorc where Thor in his role as protector against ogres was invoked (by name) ; the Canterbury healing charm (1073 CE).

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Hey, just so we're on the same personal page; I strongly dislike the term "neopagan", nor do I identify as one. The way I see it, it's an undeniable fact that everything we do today is "neo" or new, so it's an assumed prefix. When it must be compared to paganism of the past, however, I usually use the term Contemporary or Modern Paganism.

With the Norse and Icelandic poems being "cryptic," it's been proposed by Michael Lapidge in Anglo-Saxon England - and I personally believe to be the case - that the poems are mnemonic devices to memorizing the runes (which are really at their core letters), and don't have a hugely cryptic meaning. It tells what the rune stands for, and give a bit of folk wisdom.

In any case, I don't think it's wise to rely too heavily on the runic poems as the end-all-be-all of runic wisdom. For example, consider the Old Norse passage for Hagal: "Hagall er kaldastr korna; | Kristr skóp hæimenn forna." (Hail is the coldest of grain; Christ created the world of old). We know that the runes pre-date Christianity, so what would Jesus have to do with them?

Secondly, as mentioned before at their core the runes are letters; phonetic marks that indicate sounds, and when joined or put into strings, create a firmness of intention and will; writing, as it were. Runic Magic is, at it's root, the ability to spell and master words to put one's influence or will out there. The literate were the runemasters and spell weavers; take for instance a part of Egil's Saga, when he encounters the farmer who's daughter was sick. She had a runic inscription under her bed that was carved by a local boy - a boy who was more likely than not illiterate and didn't have a good grasp of the runes, and so was doing more harm than good. Egil, being literate, destroyed his nonsense spell and crafted a correct one, and the girl was healed.

There are some common elements in rune magic, as noted by Mindy MacLeod and Bernard Mees in the book Runic Amulets and Magic Objects.

1. Rune Sequences: Coded rows of runes, or series of repetitive runes.
2. Naming Expressions: Either a single name or sometimes a more ritualistic phrase like “I am called X, maker of XYZ”.
3. Charm Words: Formulaic keywords like *Alu, *LaukaR, *Lina, *Auja, or *Laþu.
4. Symbols: Triskelia, fylfot, and other common deific motifs.
5. Item Descriptions: Usually part of a phrase identifying the object it’s on. “This horn is XYZ” “This buckle was made by X”

The Lindholm amulet (2nd-4th century CE) has the following inscription:
ᛖᚲᛖᚱᛁᛚᚨᛉᛋᚨᚹᛁᛚᚨᚷᚨᛉᚺᚨᛏᛖᚲᚨ᛬ (ek/erilaz/sawilagaz/hateka or ek/erilaz/sa/wilagaz/hateka)
ᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᛉᛉᛉᚾᚾᚾᛒᛗᚢᛏᛏᛏ᛬ᚨᛚᚢ᛬ (aaaaaaaazzznnnbmuttt:alu

The first line is within Category 2, and reads "I am a runemaster, I am called Crafty". This is a form of runemagic in that "Crafty" is laying claim to the runes as having mastered them, and is tying his reputation and his honor to that claim. The second half is Category 1. Most of the line is a complete mystery, only known to Crafty, but there are two repetitions that are known from archeology and lore: the repeating Tiwaz and Ansuz runes; the best example being the Klyver Stone which features a bindrune with six repetitions of the Tiwaz rune and four repetitions of the Ansuz rune, all worked together into a single shape. There is also a part in the Sigrdrífumál when the Valkyrie Sigrdrifta tells Sigurd to carve ‘victory runes’ into his sword and chant the name of Týr twice. Even the 16th-century Galdrabók (the author of which would have had no knowledge of the Lindholm amulet) references writing eight “áss runes” as a magical incantation.

From this is where the Thurs rune may be used in conjunction with Thor. The runes are, after all, letters. So if my intent when carving an incantation is to invoke Thor, I can use Thurs as an abbreviation for his name and carve ᚦᚦᚦ as Sigurd did for Týr. Alternatively, I could carve ᚦᚬᚱᚦᚬᚱᚦᚬᚱ, using his full name. This isn't UPG, as that (Unverified Personal Gnosis) is more of an applicable term to experiences and claimed events related to the gods. What this is - using Thurs to invoke Thor - is an application of the runes for modern practice.

It should also be noted that Thurs being tied to Thor is just as justified as tying Óss to Odin alone; yes, the poem specifies Odin, but "óss" is literally the word for a single member of the Aesir, be it Odin, Tyr, or Thor. On that note, on to meanings.

In regard to the Kuan rune the ulcers discussed in the NRP are more likely to be ulcerated skin wounds from trauma or infection, it is unlikely that your average Viking would understand a burning belly ache could be caused by a gastric ulcer.

Even were that the case, ulcers and boils (the Old Norse word kaun more closely means boil) are things that "burn"; they have a very noticeable presence of inflammation and heat as the body tries to fight off infection. Boils are also quite commonly gotten from burns; another tie-in to fire. Even a common saying for disease and fever is that an illness "burned through" a person, or that if they have a fever they are "burning up". It's far from reaching, as all three things - fire, disease, and ulcers - are commonly seen as burning, destruction, and heat - things that are thus symbolized by Kenaz and Kaun.

Yes, Óss denotes a god of the Aesir in Old Norse but I think the IRP is fairly clear that the Óss in this particular case is Odin.

As noted above, the poem names Odin alone, yes. But a poem can hardly change the meaning of a word, and that would have more indication (I would say) as to what the rune ought symbolize.

A þurs is an unpleasant giant or ogre as made pretty clear by the following rune stanzas.

Þurs just means "giant", though. As we know from the stories and lore, the giants have a wide range of moralities and temperaments. Hymir is just as much a þurs as Surtr is.

Modern Mjölnirs may be emblazoned with the Thurs rune but that is a modern practice which has little bearing on the meaning of a rune in the NRP and IRP.

Well, yes, it is a modern practice. But I wasn't saying that the Thurs rune necessarily means Thor - thurs does mean "giant". However as I explain above, Thurs can be used to invoke or symbolize Thor, as it is also a letter that is used in spelling Thor's name.

Regarding UPG (and often aversion towards it,) I want to share something here that I've been saying around a few conversation regarding UPG and The Lore™:

The lore (sagas, eddas, etc) are the foundation of our faith, this is true. From poems to legends to mythology, it's what frames the Heathen culture for what it is. But it's the foundation, not the entirety. For us modern Heathens - in the year 2017 (or 1720 if the phantom time hypothesis has any validity) - looking back to our foundations as the end-all-be-all of Heathen faith is like the buds of a tree looking to the roots and saying "Hmm. There's nothing here about leaves..." It doesn't help us progress and grow, and we end up stagnating in the past.

 

[Hildeburh]

Hey, just so we're on the same personal page; I strongly dislike the term "neopagan", nor do I identify as one. The way I see it, it's an undeniable fact that everything we do today is "neo" or new, so it's an assumed prefix. When it must be compared to paganism of the past, however, I usually use the term Contemporary or Modern Paganism.

Personally, I like revivalist or old customs but I never know quite what to use with others.

With the Norse and Icelandic poems being "cryptic," it's been proposed by Michael Lapidge in Anglo-Saxon England - and I personally believe to be the case - that the poems are mnemonic devices to memorizing the runes (which are really at their core letters), and don't have a hugely cryptic meaning. It tells what the rune stands for, and give a bit of folk wisdom.

Yes, I completely agree that the poems were mnemonic devices,, that is the general academic consensus and the reason I used the word in my last post. The difficulty is, as with all Norse and Anglo Saxon lore, separating the Heathen influences from the Christian, as all these poems were recorded long after conversion.

It is a little disingenuous to assert that the rune poems stanzas are not cryptic given the ongoing debates over their meaning. If they weren't cyptic there probably would not be sooooooo many poorly written, UPG laden, pseudo-historical rune books on the market. Our difficulty as revivalists is that we do not fully understand the culture in which the runes developed so we cannot fully understand the poems and we have difficulty separating the Heathen cultural insights from the Christian insertions.

In any case, I don't think it's wise to rely too heavily on the runic poems as the end-all-be-all of runic wisdom. For example, consider the Old Norse passage for Hagal: "Hagall er kaldastr korna; | Kristr skóp hæimenn forna." (Hail is the coldest of grain; Christ created the world of old). We know that the runes pre-date Christianity, so what would Jesus have to do with them?

It's pointless to assert that people dont rely heavily on the rune poems for divination, without the poems the runes would be a series of letters representing sounds with no esoteric meaning, like our alphabet. Runes predate Christianity but the poems were recorded by Christians, the poems contain an add mixture of Christian and Heathen themes. It was a well known strategy of Christians to "sanitise" Heathen cultures and this was achieved by any number of means. As the dominant culture Christians adopted Heathen festivals, Christianised or built over Heathen shrines, enacted laws criminalising paganism, demonised our gods and sanitised the Heathen oral corpus. My guess is the last stanza once contained a Heathen reference, perhaps to a god that was distasteful to Christians so it was altered.

Secondly, as mentioned before at their core the runes are letters; phonetic marks that indicate sounds, and when joined or put into strings, create a firmness of intention and will; writing, as it were. Runic Magic is, at it's root, the ability to spell and master words to put one's influence or will out there. The literate were the runemasters and spell weavers; take for instance a part of Egil's Saga, when he encounters the farmer who's daughter was sick. She had a runic inscription under her bed that was carved by a local boy - a boy who was more likely than not illiterate and didn't have a good grasp of the runes, and so was doing more harm than good. Egil, being literate, destroyed his nonsense spell and crafted a correct one, and the girl was healed.

I agree the runes are a script, a system of sounds that reflect a language, that is self evident and really does not need to be stated. The question is what creates the magic? The runic symbol itself, the written charm, the spoken words, the object it is written on or is it a combination of these? The answer is we don't know, we can only guess because we are far removed from their culture and their worldview.

Egil's Saga is literature it is not a Heathen magic manual. Like all Scandinavian written literature it was recorded post conversion by Christians and yes it was originally part of the oral Heathen corpus and contains cultural insights but it also contains Christian themes and censorship. The magic and divinatory practices of modern Heathens draws inspiration from our ancestors but we can never know what they practiced or hope to resurrect it.

Literacy in the Younger futhark runes was a good deal more widespread than during the Elder futhark, the majority of runic inscriptions during this 9th-11th century were mundane or spelled out the classic X raised this stone in memory of Y.

There are some common elements in rune magic, as noted by Mindy MacLeod and Bernard Mees in the book Runic Amulets and Magic Objects.

1. Rune Sequences: Coded rows of runes, or series of repetitive runes.
2. Naming Expressions: Either a single name or sometimes a more ritualistic phrase like “I am called X, maker of XYZ”.
3. Charm Words: Formulaic keywords like *Alu, *LaukaR, *Lina, *Auja, or *Laþu.
4. Symbols: Triskelia, fylfot, and other common deific motifs.
5. Item Descriptions: Usually part of a phrase identifying the object it’s on. “This horn is XYZ” “This buckle was made by X”

The Lindholm amulet (2nd-4th century CE) has the following inscription:
ᛖᚲᛖᚱᛁᛚᚨᛉᛋᚨᚹᛁᛚᚨᚷᚨᛉᚺᚨᛏᛖᚲᚨ᛬ (ek/erilaz/sawilagaz/hateka or ek/erilaz/sa/wilagaz/hateka)
ᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᚨᛉᛉᛉᚾᚾᚾᛒᛗᚢᛏᛏᛏ᛬ᚨᛚᚢ᛬ (aaaaaaaazzznnnbmuttt:alu

The first line is within Category 2, and reads "I am a runemaster, I am called Crafty". This is a form of runemagic in that "Crafty" is laying claim to the runes as having mastered them, and is tying his reputation and his honor to that claim. The second half is Category 1. Most of the line is a complete mystery, only known to Crafty, but there are two repetitions that are known from archeology and lore: the repeating Tiwaz and Ansuz runes; the best example being the Klyver Stone which features a bindrune with six repetitions of the Tiwaz rune and four repetitions of the Ansuz rune, all worked together into a single shape. There is also a part in the Sigrdrífumál when the Valkyrie Sigrdrifta tells Sigurd to carve ‘victory runes’ into his sword and chant the name of Týr twice. Even the 16th-century Galdrabók (the author of which would have had no knowledge of the Lindholm amulet) references writing eight “áss runes” as a magical incantation.

Scratches head...........I have this book it's available as a PDF. I fail to see its relavance or the point of your inclusion of this summary in this discussion. Either you have found a triple Thurs rune used to invoke Thor or you haven't. The16th-century Galdrabók was written 500 years post conversion it represents late medieval occult practices that happen to employ runes, it is not pre Christian Heathen magic.

From this is where the Thurs rune may be used in conjunction with Thor. The runes are, after all, letters. So if my intent when carving an incantation is to invoke Thor, I can use Thurs as an abbreviation for his name and carve ᚦᚦᚦ as Sigurd did for Týr. Alternatively, I could carve ᚦᚬᚱᚦᚬᚱᚦᚬᚱ, using his full name. This isn't UPG, as that (Unverified Personal Gnosis) is more of an applicable term to experiences and claimed events related to the gods. What this is - using Thurs to invoke Thor - is an application of the runes for modern practice..

Your video focused on the meaning of the runes in the Younger futhark , that's what we were discussing, so you are now saying you abbreviate Thors name to an unrelated rune when carving and incantation? So you abbreviate our gods names to the first two letters of their name, do you use this principle for all the gods? Yes, it is modern practice.

It should also be noted that Thurs being tied to Thor is just as justified as tying Óss to Odin alone; yes, the poem specifies Odin, but "óss" is literally the word for a single member of the Aesir, be it Odin, Tyr, or Thor. On that note, on to meanings.

No, its not. The poem ties Òss to Odin the poem does not in any way, other than by oblique logic tie Thurs to Thor, other than by being the first two letters of his name. It's not a word it's a rune, there is a rune for Odin in the IRP and for Tyr there is not for Thor.

Even were that the case, ulcers and boils (the Old Norse word kaun more closely means boil) are things that "burn"; they have a very noticeable presence of inflammation and heat as the body tries to fight off infection. Boils are also quite commonly gotten from burns; another tie-in to fire. Even a common saying for disease and fever is that an illness "burned through" a person, or that if they have a fever they are "burning up". It's far from reaching, as all three things - fire, disease, and ulcers - are commonly seen as burning, destruction, and heat - things that are thus symbolized by Kenaz and Kaun..

Glad you've ditched your original assertion that an " ulcer certainly feels like a fire in your belly". Boils are not caused burns, boils are an infection in a hair follicle.

Boils

An ulcer is an open wound causing tissue disintegration, they have many causes. Do you have a source for kaun = boil?

Regarding UPG (and often aversion towards it,) I want to share something here that I've been saying around a few conversation regarding UPG and The Lore™:The lore (sagas, eddas, etc) are the foundation of our faith, this is true. From poems to legends to mythology, it's what frames the Heathen culture for what it is. But it's the foundation, not the entirety. For us modern Heathens - in the year 2017 (or 1720 if the phantom time hypothesis has any validity) - looking back to our foundations as the end-all-be-all of Heathen faith is like the buds of a tree looking to the roots and saying "Hmm. There's nothing here about leaves..." It doesn't help us progress and grow, and we end up stagnating in the past.

There's nothing wrong with UPG we've all had it, it's not a dirty word. We wouldn't know what the entirety is, our sources are written from the perspective of outsiders, lost, destroyed and Christianised. There's a fine line between being sensitive to what we know of our ancestors culture and making things up because it sounds good, is expedient or we can't be bothered researching.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The difficulty is, as with all Norse and Anglo Saxon lore, separating the Heathen influences from the Christian, as all these poems were recorded long after conversion.

That's why for me personally, I would much rather go with the simple and ascribe meaning to the runes based on their names alone, without the poems. The names are pretty clear, with little to no interpretation needed:

Fehu (Proto-Germanic) / Fé (Old Norse) - wealth (literal)
Uruz (PG) - Auroch (though, possibly water)
Úr (ON) - dross (though also possibly water)
Þurisaz (PG) / Þurs (ON) - giant (literal)
Ansuz (PG) / Óss (ON) - god (male) (literal)
Raido (PG) / Reið (ON) - journey (literal)
Kenaz (Old English) - torch (literal)
Kaun (ON) - ulcer / boil* (literal)
Gebo (PG) - gift (literal)
Wunjo (PG) - joy (literal)
Haglaz (PG) / Hagal (ON) - hail / precipitation* (literal)
Nauthiz (PG) / Nauðr (ON) - need (literal)
Isaz (PG) / Isa (ON) - ice (literal)
Jera (PG) / Ár (ON) - harvest (literal)
Eiwaz (PG) / Yr (ON) - yew (literal)
Perþo (PG) - unknown (the only one where the poem offers some indication as to the meaning)
Algiz (PG) - elk / moose / deer* (literal)
Tiwaz (PG) / Týr (ON) - Týr (literal)
Sowilo (PG) / Sól (ON) - sun (literal)
Berkanan (PG) / Bjarkan (ON) - birch (literal)
Ehwaz (PG) - horse (literal)
Mannaz (PG) / Maðr (ON) - man / human* (literal)
Laguz (PG) - lake (literal)
Lögr (Icelandic) - waterfall (literal)
Logr (ON) - water (literal)
Ingwaz (PG) - unknown (commonly attributed to Freyr or warriors of Freyr)
Oþalan (PG) / Oðal (ON) - heritage (literal)
Dagaz (PG) - day (literal)

It is a little disingenuous to assert that the rune poems stanzas are not cryptic given the ongoing debates over their meaning.

Oh no, I wasn't asserting that they're not cryptic. They very well could be; I just don't think they are.

Either you have found a triple Thurs rune used to invoke Thor or you haven't.

I haven't, but my point is that it shouldn't invalidate the practice. We've got lore-based example of the names of the gods being honored and invoked through repetition; in that manner ᚦᚦᚦ carved with the intention of invoking Thor would utilize the Þ of Thurs - it's linguistic sound and an abbreviation of Þórr - rather than it's meaning of "giant".

Your video focused on the meaning of the runes in the Younger futhark, that's what we were discussing, so you are now saying you abbreviate Thors name to an unrelated rune when carving and incantation?

Aye, but in the video I do say that Thursaz/Thurs means "giant", but it also often attributed to Thor. I'm not saying that they mean Thor, but that it's moderately appropriate given his parentage. When we use the runes in Category 1, they're used as letters. We would spell Thor's name in runes as ᚦᚬᚱ, but this can be further codified as ᚦ; especially when crafting an amulet to where the meaning is known only to us.

This wouldn't be a modern practice, either, as we've got the examples as set in the lore, and abbreviation is no new thing. For example, our word "goodbye" is the result of medieval abbreviation. A pilgrim left the inscription "GOD B W YE" at a pilgrimage site, meaning "God be with ye." It was then read as "godbwye", and over time evolved to simply "goodbye".

It's not a word it's a rune, there is a rune for Odin in the IRP and for Tyr there is not for Thor.

My point is that there's only a rune for Odin by the poem; by name of the runes, Tyr is the only one definitively with a rune for himself.

Glad you've ditched your original assertion that an "ulcer certainly feels like a fire in your belly". Boils are not caused burns, boils are an infection in a hair follicle.

Oh no, I still very much stand by that. I had an ulcer, and if I didn't know better I would literally think there was fire in my belly - it sure as hell felt like it. Now, you may have noticed that I stared the name meanings of the runes Kaun, Hagal, Algiz, and Maðr. Here's where I get back to that. *In Old Norse, several things that we differentiate today had the same name. Even in Bokmål (Norwegian), elg means elk, moose, or reindeer; despite those being three different beasts. While we differentiate today between boils and blisters (the word I meant yesterday; my apologies), there would not have been such a distinction back then; both are the skin "boiling" up as water does, even accompanied with heat and fever. I imagine that skin ulcers (which comprise a small portion of all ulcer wounds) would be included in this category of "burning painful skin wounds" that differ great enough from things like lacerations and piercing wounds. The etymological root of the word, even, means nothing more than "to puff up" or "hump"

The only source that I have for kaun meaning "boil" I can't show you direct; it's an Old Norse to English dictionary (PDF format) compiled by Ross G. Arthur through Cambridge.

 

[Hildeburh]

Interpretation of the Elder futhark was needed, the names and meanings were reconstructed by historical linguists. But I get your meaning.

Yep, kaun
You were right
Kenaz

Good discussion, I have learnt something. Hope it was a useful exchange for you.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Those additional poems and curses are very interesting to me. I knew the one from the Hávamál, but not the others! I've actually used Kaun in such an application; while making a sandwich at my old job for an acquaintance who was a pain in the butt (and kind of a [REDACTED]), I carved Kaun runes into the cucumbers so that she wouldn't see them. Later she complained that the sub gave her indigestion!

 

[Hildeburh]

Those additional poems and curses are very interesting to me. I knew the one from the Hávamál, but not the others! I've actually used Kaun in such an application; while making a sandwich at my old job for an acquaintance who was a pain in the butt (and kind of a [REDACTED]), I carved Kaun runes into the cucumbers so that she wouldn't see them. Later she complained that the sub gave her indigestion!

Ha ha, I like that.

I don't use the runes for magic, I did in the past but now it's more of an academic interest. I like reading younger futhark rune inscriptions, some of them are hilarious.

I do practice galdor, I use as a template Anglo-Saxon charms and the PIE formulas

Galdor
'galdor' - Bosworth–Toller Anglo-Saxon Dictionary