The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok... charged with false equivalency, fallacies, it isn't a legal document, anecdotal evidence and a plethora of other reasons of which I don't agree with,, let us conclude..... that we are on opposite sides of the coin.

Yes. We are on the side that demands evidence. You are on the side that is content with mere faith.

You choose to live with what man can do on his understanding and science and I choose to live with what man can do on his understand and science seasoned with miracles do many to count.

Yes. We are rational and stick to what is demonstrable. You are irrational and are fine with accepting the undemonstrable and magical.

You don't have to live with miracles but you get to if you want to.

Try first defining the word "miracle" in a way that it can be distinguished from sheer fantasy.

 

[Kenny]

Try first defining the word "miracle" in a way that it can be distinguished from sheer fantasy.

Comes in different forms but it is when God does what science could not with visible evidence. Fantasy doesn't produce results IMV. Would you like an example?

 

[Heyo]

science seasoned with miracles do many to count.

Science seasoned with miracles is like a righteous life seasoned with serial murder.

 

[Kenny]

Science seasoned with miracles is like a righteous life seasoned with serial murder.

Not sure how that relates but what I do know is that Moses, King David, Saul/Paul were made righteous as murderers. If they can make it, there is hope for humanity.

EDITED:

John Newton discovered that grace as a slave trader/murderer and wrote Amazing Grace.

 

[F1fan]

@TagliatelliMonster @F1fan @Subduction Zone @SkepticThinker (Exhausted in answering every detail of you four )

Has it occurred to you that you hold incorrect beiefs? That your thinking is flawed? Why fight when others point you to more sound thinking and conclusions?

Ok... charged with false equivalency, fallacies, it isn't a legal document, anecdotal evidence and a plethora of other reasons of which I don't agree with,, let us conclude..... that we are on opposite sides of the coin.

We don't have to conclude this, this is an observation. There are many binary sets of categories, atheists/theists being one such categorical set. Notice that your side of the coin is broad, as it includes Muslims and Hindus, and largely rejects reason as the best means to understand truth.

You choose to live with what man can do on his understanding and science and I choose to live with what man can do on his understand and science seasoned with miracles do many to count.

You have a distorted set of beliefs. You seem unable to compartmentalize your religion and knowledge about reality. That is largely due to the bad religion you were exposed to, and you can't adjust this dogma. That means you suffer though inner conflict and conflict in these discussions. You want your dogma, and it doesn't work with knowledge.

You don't have to live with miracles but you get to if you want to.

Look at how you describe illusions here. There are no miracles. Wanting to believe in miracles is seems to indicate a lack of trust in the self. And others.

 

[F1fan]

Not sure how that relates but what I do know is that Moses, King David, Saul/Paul were made righteous as murderers. If they can make it, there is hope for humanity.

EDITED:

John Newton discovered that grace as a slave trader/murderer and wrote Amazing Grace.

Being immoral and feeling guilt can lead to facing hard truths. But his song will never offset the damage he did to human beings because he lacked moral insight, and believed what he learned from his social experiences. This is why we see so many Christians claim to be moral but reject universal healthcare for all Americans. To my mind it is the same moral failure as slave trading, as the ideological ends justify the means.

 

[Heyo]

Not sure how that relates but what I do know is that Moses, King David, Saul/Paul were made righteous as murderers. If they can make it, there is hope for humanity.

EDITED:

John Newton discovered that grace as a slave trader/murderer and wrote Amazing Grace.

See, one more similarity: people mixing science with miracles also have no qualms to mix righteousness with murder.

 

[Kenny]

Has it occurred to you that you hold incorrect beiefs? That your thinking is flawed? Why fight when others point you to more sound thinking and conclusions?

not anymore.

Look at how you describe illusions here. There are no miracles. Wanting to believe in miracles is seems to indicate a lack of trust in the self. And others.

How would you know.? Are you the recipient of what I consider my miracles?

 

[Kenny]

See, one more similarity: people mixing science with miracles also have no qualms to mix righteousness with murder.

you have lost me in what you are trying to say. Sorry.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@TagliatelliMonster @F1fan @Subduction Zone @SkepticThinker (Exhausted in answering every detail of you four )

Ok... charged with false equivalency, fallacies, it isn't a legal document, anecdotal evidence and a plethora of other reasons of which I don't agree with,, let us conclude..... that we are on opposite sides of the coin.

You choose to live with what man can do on his understanding and science and I choose to live with what man can do on his understand and science seasoned with miracles do many to count.

You don't have to live with miracles but you get to if you want to.

Yes, you can live with make believe. It may not even affect your perceptions. but odds are that it does affect them negatively.

 

[Subduction Zone]

not anymore.


How would you know.? Are you the recipient of what I consider my miracles?

Your miracles are probably mostly examples of confirmation bias and nothing more. One needs to rely more upon "Heads God wins, tails you lose". For rational thought one must find a way to properly test one's beliefs and I have never seen a religious believer do so. The quite often conflate testing their beliefs with "testing God".

 

[F1fan]

not anymore.

And it shows in your posts.

How would you know.?

Because there is no evidence of miracles occurring. What are claimed to be miracles have better explanations.

Are you the recipient of what I consider my miracles?

You create miracles? Are you God, or a god?

Tell us more about your miracle giving.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Comes in different forms but it is when God does what science could not with visible evidence.

What does that mean?

Fantasy doesn't produce results IMV.

Placebo's produce results.

Would you like an example?

yes please

 

[Kenny]

What does that mean?

Different forms: There are provision miracles, healing miracles, financial miracles, et al... different forms.

Placebo's produce results.

that is true.

yes please

Back in the day when there was such a thing as an electronic machine called "Canon electronic memory typewriters" that could be dubbed as a printer, I had just accepted Jesus as Lord and realized that the current job that I had was no longer a place to remain. As an assistant manager awaiting a store to manage, I came to the conclusion that I could either be married to my job or married to my wife and find out about this God that just transformed me.

An opportunity arose for me to sell those machines as a commission-only contract. Having had a steady income for the previous 10 years, it was a daunting consideration. I didn't know if I was a salesman. The manager of the company was OK with me trying it out on my weekday off. (Grocery chain meant weekends and holidays).

I was asking God to show me or tell me whether or not this was the door of opportunity that He wanted me to take. Arriving in the city of Vero Beach, Fl, I stopped at a L-shaped strip-mall. Parked, got out of my car, grabbed the $2100 - $3,000 piece of machinery and started walking toward the businesses. Half way to the businesses I thought to myself "These small businesses can't afford this piece of equipment!" so I turned around to go back to my car.

As I walked back, I just closed my eyes with a song of praise on my lips for a few seconds and as I did that, I saw letters in an arc shape. Call it a vision, I don't know what else to call it. I turned around and noticed where the legs of the L-shape met, there was an insurance business with the lettering of the business was in an arc shape. The only business with lettering in an arc shape.

I went to the business and found out they were about to close on a competitors electronic typewriter. They bought mine.

Placebo? Don't think so... happens too many times
Chance? Don't think so... not with a vision of arc shaped letters

Of course, someone else can throw this historical event as trash... but for me, I would prefer continuing to live a life full of miracles as there are many instances of things like unto this.

 

[Heyo]

you have lost me in what you are trying to say. Sorry.

What am I trying to say? You engage in a thing which Orwell called "double think". It is a mental exercise where you believe in two contradictory things at once. Which, logically, is paradoxical or absurd. And Voltaire had to say something about believing in absurdities:

That's why I mistrust believers, their morality is not based in logic, I never know when they might fly off the rails.

 

[Kenny]

What am I trying to say? You engage in a thing which Orwell called "double think". It is a mental exercise where you believe in two contradictory things at once. Which, logically, is paradoxical or absurd. And Voltaire had to say something about believing in absurdities:

That's why I mistrust believers, their morality is not based in logic, I never know when they might fly off the rails.

But where is the contradiction?

 

[Heyo]

But where is the contradiction?

A contradiction is when you believe in two contradictionary things at once, (A ∧ ¬A).
Where religion is A (miracles) and science is ¬A (no miracles).

 

[Tinker Grey]

A contradiction is when you believe in two contradictionary things at once, (A ∧ ¬A).

Yes.

Where religion is A (miracles) and science is ¬A (no miracles).

No.

Your example is like saying "Where cow is A (milk producing) and lizard is ¬A (not milk producing)."

One thing may have a property and another thing might not.

A more accurate statement might be: If you believe science is true (and it rejects miracles) AND you believe religion is true (and it accepts miracles) THEN you have cognitive dissonance with respect to miracles--you believe 2 contradictory things at once.

(N.b., I think saying science rejects miracles is simplistic. Rather, the concept of a miracle is too ill-defined for one to consider it a valid field of study.)

 

[Kenny]

A contradiction is when you believe in two contradictionary things at once, (A ∧ ¬A).
Where religion is A (miracles) and science is ¬A (no miracles).

OH..... LOL - I think that is a perspective or maybe the approach that somehow man thinks he knows it all with no room for adjusting as we learn -- like unto a higher law that overcomes a lower law... like the power of lift over gravity.

Like this:

What we call "a miracle" actually being the spiritual capacity that God has given man. The power of expectancy, the power of faith.

 

[F1fan]

OH..... LOL - I think that is a perspective or maybe the approach that somehow man thinks he knows it all with no room for adjusting as we learn

Like belief that Jesus is savior, and that in the 21st century we still need to behave like it is 900 AD. Critical thinkers have learnef that these ideas, like the Christian version of salvation (not the Jewish version) is inconsistent with reality and not believable literally. Most all Christians are taught at an early age to believe this and they are indoctrinated to a degree that they can't let this idea go.

-- like unto a higher law that overcomes a lower law... like the power of lift over gravity.

There are no higher/lower laws, there are just laws of physics.

What we call "a miracle" actually being the spiritual capacity that God has given man. The power of expectancy, the power of faith.

So all imagined in the human mind that is willing to believe this. Notice critical thinkers reject this magical thinking. So the question is why you decide to hold on to this kind of thinking.