The forbidden fruit

[Aqualung]

Why didn't God just come down and tell Adam and Eve, "Here, you should eat of this fruit. It would be good for you." It would still be their choice.

 

[jonny]

I don't know for sure, but I have the theory about it.

God is perfect and therefore, I don't believe he would create something that is imperfect. When God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden of eden he placed them in a celestial state of perfection. He knew and they realized that in order to progress that they would have to leave this state. He gave them the choice.

Satan tempted Adam and Eve and they ended up eating the fruit and being cast out of the garden. They fell, became imperfect, and required the Savior to return to the celestial state they were in.

If God had placed Adam and Eve in a non-celestial state -or- tempted them himself to eat the fruit he would be the source of all misery and evil in the world. Since Satan tempted Adam and Eve and they gave in to his temptation, he became the source of all misery and evil in the world.

I'm sure there are holes in the theory, but its something that I am still pondering and developing.

Also, we should keep in mind that the story of the creation and garden of eden is also symbolic of our life. Each of us were created in a perfect state, fell, and require the atonement to return to God. Through marriage and procreation we participate in God's work of creation and become like God. In a way, each of us are symbolically Adam and Eve.

 

[Draka]

A test of obedience? Maybe it wasn't the fruit itself (since it is revered in other cultures) it is simply that it was a way of testing His creations to see if they obeyed Him? If He TOLD them to eat it and they did it would prove them obedient. Sounds like it was a mutual thing with He and Satan...a partnership to constantly test humans. Perhaps They ARE on the same side? (waiting for smacks galore for that comment)


If you don't mind me weighing in on this question that is. I hope not, I like to theorize things a lot and mean no disrespect.

 

[Aqualung]

I don't know for sure, but I have the theory about it.

God is perfect and therefore, I don't believe he would create something that is imperfect. When God created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden of eden he placed them in a celestial state of perfection. He knew and they realized that in order to progress that they would have to leave this state. He gave them the choice.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down! If they were already in a celestial state, why even bother with the world at all? Why not just put everybody there?

Satan tempted Adam and Eve and they ended up eating the fruit and being cast out of the garden. They fell, became imperfect, and required the Savior to return to the celestial state they were in.

But once agian, if they were already there, why bother with all that in between stuff

If God had placed Adam and Eve in a non-celestial state -or- tempted them himself to eat the fruit he would be the source of all misery and evil in the world. Since Satan tempted Adam and Eve and they gave in to his temptation, he became the source of all misery and evil in the world.

But he ultimately is the source if he allowed satan to tempt them.

I'm sure there are holes in the theory, but its something that I am still pondering and developing.

That's fine. We can develope it together.

Also, we should keep in mind that the story of the creation and garden of eden is also symbolic of our life. Each of us were be created in a perfect state, fell, and require the atonement to return to God. Through marriage and procreation we participate in God's work of creation and become like God. In a way, each of us are symbolically Adam and Eve.

Ah, good point.



Draka - I don't mind you comments at all. I always value other viewpoints when trying to forumlate such things.

 

[Draka]

Draka - I don't mind you comments at all. I always value other viewpoints when trying to forumlate such things.

Thank you. If you don't mind others' viewpoints may I make another?

As you probably know I view the Divine as the Parents. If your parents wanted to test your honesty and obedience they could play off each other. Which is why I brought up the bit about God and Satan being a partnership. If we are creations we are essentially children that must be watched and tested constantly to make sure we are learning the lesson we should be. It's kind of like playing "good cop/bad cop" you know? Your Mom may play "good cop" and your dad "bad cop" to get you to spill the beans and admit your wrongdoing so that they can come up with an appropriate punishment so that you will learn what you did wrong. Perhaps it could be looked at the same way with the "forbidden fruit"?

 

[jonny]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down! If they were already in a celestial state, why even bother with the world at all? Why not just put everybody there?

I'll answer this question with a scripture from Abraham.

Abraham 3: 25-27

"And there stood one among them who was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon they may dwell. And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who kept their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever."

The fact that we exist and are here on earth means that we kept our first estate. Those who were cast out of heaven failed the first "test" and did not keep their first estate. We are now being tested to see if we will keep our second estate. It wouldn't have been much of a test if he placed us all in the celestial kingdom.

Also, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden they were innocent and did not procreate. None of us would have had the chance to come to earth if they had remained in the garden.

But he ultimately is the source if he allowed satan to tempt them.

The first gift that God gave us was our free agency. I'm pretty certain that God knew that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve, but he still let Satan make this decision.

 

[Aqualung]

Draka - That's a really interesting viewpoint. I had never thought of it that way. Though what parent ever slanders the other parent?

jonny - Good answers.

 

[Draka]

Draka - That's a really interesting viewpoint. I had never thought of it that way. Though what parent ever slanders the other parent?

jonny - Good answers.

Think of it this way...Lucifer WAS God's "right hand man" before he was cast out right? Well, there was a partnership there on the same side at one time and now opposite sides. Like divorced parents. One may slander the other...but they both have a say in manipulating and raising the children...no matter how different their methods may be. Just postulating here.

 

[FFH]

Hey AqualLung this is the crazy guy again....Hey you sure like food questions don't you...You know God did tell Adam and Eve which fruits to eat and which not too buddy. "Of all the fruits in the garden thou mayest freely eat but of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou mayest not eat, for in the day that thou eatest of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt surely die" Genesis

God loves us enough to give us the choice between good and evil. He wants us to make a choice for ourselves so that we may know the good from the evil and recognize it for ourselves so that we may make a decision for ourselves what we will choose. God "gives us the desires of our heart" good or bad he grants us what we want... The only problem is that if we choose bad there is always a bad consequence of that action and if we choose goood obviously there is a good consequence of that action. We are free to choose what we want but not free to choose the consequences of that action....

 

[Pah]

This thread is turning into debate and as such does not belong in Disciss Individual Religions

 

[Aqualung]

Hey AqualLung this is the crazy guy again....Hey you sure like food questions don't you...You know God did tell Adam and Eve which fruits to eat and which not too buddy. "Of all the fruits in the garden thou mayest freely eat but of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou mayest not eat, for in the day that thou eatest of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt surely die" Genesis

God loves us enough to give us the choice between good and evil. He wants us to make a choice for ourselves so that we may know the good from the evil and recognize it for ourselves so that we may make a decision for ourselves what we will choose. God "gives us the desires of our heart" good or bad he grants us what we want... The only problem is that if we choose bad there is always a bad consequence of that action and if we choose goood obviously there is a good consequence of that action. We are free to choose what we want but not free to choose the consequences of that action....

Yes, but what I don't get is this. It was parts of Heavenly Father's plan that Adam would transgress, and therefor open us up to sorrow (for without sorrow there is no joy...). Since that was his plan, why didn't he say, "You should eat this fruit." It would still be our choice, but it just wouldn't be a trangression. In other words, why did it need to be a transgression for us to eat the fruit.

 

[Aqualung]

this is not a debate. Don't debate in here!

 

[FFH]

Yes, but what I don't get is this. It was parts of Heavenly Father's plan that Adam would transgress, and therefor open us up to sorrow (for without sorrow there is no joy...). Since that was his plan, why didn't he say, "You should eat this fruit." It would still be our choice, but it just wouldn't be a trangression. In other words, why did it need to be a transgression for us to eat the fruit.

Adam and Eve had a choice: Remain in the garden of Eden in a state of innocense (not knowing good and evil) or partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (and experience good and evel for themselves).... This is the whole Plan of Salvation right there in Genesis....We had a choice too to remain in heaven and not come to earth and follow Satan and his plan (which was to never experiemce good and evil for ourselves on earth) OR follow Heavenly Fathers Plan of Salvation (which was to come to earth and experience good and evil for ourselves, so that WE may choose which to follow. This is the Plan of Happiness.... I love being able to choose between GOOD and EVIL.....it makes me HAPPY....and God is merciful to us to the degree that he provided a Savior, Jesus Christ, whom has taken upon my sins (Evil choices) that I have commtted and I am allowed to go free of the consequences of SIN (Evil choices)....Its a win win situation.....We can experience SIN and bad choices and still repent and return to our Father in Heaven....What a merciful GOD....He does not condemn us for our sins if we but Repent and love HIm....HE DOES NOT CONDEMN US but rather LOVES US ENOUGH TO GIVE US OUR FREE AGENCY in order that we may experience the GOOD and the EVIL on earth.....Its a great PLAN....

 

[Aqualung]

Yes, but we are still able to choose even if he said, "you should eat this fruit," instead of "you shoud not eat this fruit." They're still choices.

 

[Valjean]

Realistically, if God didn't want them to eat the fruit He could have made it intolerably bitter, allergenic or some such thing.

The fruit myth illustrates man's transition from an amoral beast to moral agent.

 

[FFH]

Yes, but we are still able to choose even if he said, "you should eat this fruit," instead of "you shoud not eat this fruit." They're still choices.

Wow I see what you are saying....I will reply to that question one minute

 

[FFH]

So you are asking why God did not say "eat this fruit this fruit of knowledge of good an evil" verses "dont eat this fuit of knowledge of good and evil" right???? is that it???

 

[Aqualung]

Essentially, yes.

 

[jonny]

this is not a debate. Don't debate in here!

I agree. I made posts that I wanted to discuss only with members of the LDS church. I would not have posted them if it was in a debate thread.

 

[FFH]

Well that is why eating of the fruit is called a transgression and not a sin.... It was not a bad choice at all.....God was saying to Adam and Eve that unless you are ready to leave this garden (or paradise) and move to the next level of your progression (which is to be in a world apart from God) so they could experience sin and sorrow for themselves, then don"t touch the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil. The Garden was just a holding place for Adam and Eve until they were ready to move to the next level (which was to be seperate from God in order to experience evil and sin for themselves) In other words God was telling tham don't eat of this fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil unless you are ready to do so.....Eve was ready so she picked the fruit and so did Adam obviously.....They were ready for the next step in their progression towards living with God again.....We are in that step of our progression as they were...."This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God, yeah this time is the time for men to perform their labors".