The ends justify the means?

[Shadow Wolf]

As for sex slavery it was a fact of life and warfare in the bronze age. Basically everyone did it and the Hebrews were not excepted in those days. They forcefully married their captives but it was normal for the time. Just read Homer's Iliad. They didn't think like we do about it.

That doesn't excuse it.

 

[blü 2]

That doesn't excuse it.

They'd say it needed no excuse.

Which of you would be right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, he's human. He made a mistake. He probably panicked. Anyway, the fact is he's still not as bad as the people of Sodom who were intentionally trying to rape peaceful travelers and probably kill them and steal their stuff.

I’d generally agree, but does this justify Lot’s actions?

Okay, so Lot's not a paragon of virtue? Are you saying that people have to be perfect?

The Bible makes lot out to be virtuous (see 2 Peter 2:7-8); I’m glad to hear you disagree with that bit of the New Testament.

... but what I was getting at is that trying to hand his daughters over to be gang-raped would have been a pretty heinous act, no? But you tried to justify these means based on the ends they achieved as a critical step in the story.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do the ends justify the means? Like let's say ISIS wanted to establish a global Caliphate full of peace and goodwill and what not. Everyone would be Muslim and obey the Sharia. Is beheading people and blowing people up a good way to go about it? Will that be a happy utopia? Or will the leaders go on being what they have already proven themselves to be? Ruthless killers and psychopaths? You see where I am going with this? You can't take the psycho out of the psycho. He's still psycho even after he achieves everything he wanted to achieve.

Actually, I have no idea where you’re going with this or what point you’re trying to make.

How do you draw that conclusion?

Because you’re trying to justify Lot’s actions based on the outcome that resulted.

 

[Audie]

It will be evil if they used evil methods to advance their cause. That's because you reap what you sow. So whoever sows evil seed is going to harvest the evil they planted. You can't advance a "good" cause with evil methods. It will always be evil and corrupt. Even if you still want it to be good. You have to use only good methods if you want something to be good.

"Evil", as defined by?
Is theft evil? Always?

 

[Thief]

Like Lot, who passed the test by offering up his daughters to be gang-raped. Very morally upstanding.

Edit: that story actually makes a good example scenario. In the Sodom and Gomorrah story, "the ends" was Lot and his family (minus his wife) being saved from God's wrath. "The means" was Lot handing his daughters over to be gang-raped. Did the ends justify the means in that case?

and the daughters then took advantage of their drunken father.....
is that right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It will be evil if they used evil methods to advance their cause. That's because you reap what you sow. So whoever sows evil seed is going to harvest the evil they planted. You can't advance a "good" cause with evil methods. It will always be evil and corrupt. Even if you still want it to be good. You have to use only good methods if you want something to be good.

For instance - to use a classic example - it would be wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed a starving person... right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As for sex slavery it was a fact of life and warfare in the bronze age. Basically everyone did it and the Hebrews were not excepted in those days. They forcefully married their captives but it was normal for the time. Just read Homer's Iliad. They didn't think like we do about it.

Polytheism was a fact of life in the Bronze Age.

 

[Audie]

and the daughters then took advantage of their drunken father.....
is that right?

It is just a story.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is just a story.

Hey! Don't ruin it for him. He obviously wants to believe in the "good parts"of the Bible.

 

[Audie]

Hey! Don't ruin it for him. He obviously wants to believe in the "good parts"of the Bible.

Where is the "both hands over my mouth" icon?

 

[Thief]

and when the Jews entered the promised land.....
was it not already occupied?

no doubt THAT didn't go over well

 

[Audie]

and when the Jews entered the promised land.....
was it not already occupied?

no doubt THAT didn't go over well

It is going over great today

 

[Thief]

For instance - to use a classic example - it would be wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed a starving person... right?

wasn't that David?......ripping off the show bread
intended for the priests only

 

[Segev Moran]

God did not do evil; but gave Himself into the hands of evil. This is about people who commit immoral acts to further a supposedly "righteous" cause.

But the people who abused Jesus were doing good or bad?

 

[74x12]

Actually, I have no idea where you’re going with this or what point you’re trying to make.

Then you basically missed the main point of the thread. I don't blame you. (I was vague because I wanted to see where people went with it.) But this is the kind of situations I'm really referring to.

Because you’re trying to justify Lot’s actions based on the outcome that resulted.

Well, sorry but it was you who were going with that line of reasoning. I maintain that the angels did everything by themselves that resulted in a good outcome for Lot and his daughters. If it had been up to Lot's decision making; then it likely would not have been a good out come.

Polytheism was a fact of life in the Bronze Age.

Indeed. Of course they did many things differently then. As I said, God wasn't trying to start a revolution against all of bronze age culture. He wanted to begin something good that would grow.

But the people who abused Jesus were doing good or bad?

Bad of course. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. They did not know that they were doing bad or even necessarily good. It was just routine for everyone. Another day. Another crucifixion.

So, "The ends justify the means" simply doesn't apply to the situation. The ends justify the means is when someone philosophically condones immoral actions in order to bring about what they believe will result in a good out come. Can you show that anyone who crucified Jesus did so on purpose because they thought it would be a good outcome?

The Bible makes lot out to be virtuous (see 2 Peter 2:7-8); I’m glad to hear you disagree with that bit of the New Testament.

... but what I was getting at is that trying to hand his daughters over to be gang-raped would have been a pretty heinous act, no? But you tried to justify these means based on the ends they achieved as a critical step in the story.

It doesn't say virtuous but righteous. I do not believe that the Bible ever holds Lot up as an example of an especially virtuous man. In fact we don't see any virtues really on display except that he is kind to travelers. That's it. Although I'm sure that's not his only saving grace. That's all we learn about anyway. But, there is a difference between purposefully doing evil like the people of Sodom and on the other hand being like Lot and making a tough call in a tough situation. So yes Lot was righteous because he was not a man enjoying sin. That doesn't mean he was perfect.

For instance - to use a classic example - it would be wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed a starving person... right?

I'm not arguing that there are no exceptions to a rule. There definitely are. For me though for a tree to bear evil fruit is more than only doing something like that.

Let's take Stalin for example. He confiscated all the "rich" peasant's food in the Ukraine and caused millions of people to starve to death. Apparently, he did this because these peasants weren't communist enough. He supposedly wanted to make a "good" communist system. Did it work? Did he bring about good by doing evil? Or did he just kill a bunch of people and end up with a horrible Soviet communist system?

 

[74x12]

The CIA and other intelligence agencies around the world. Supposedly doing "good" and defending their countries. But at what cost? Is it good to constantly make lies our refuge? Is it such a good idea to make a covenant with death? (Isaiah 28:15)

What is the cost of all this secrecy?