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The Curse of Coniah Done Away by the Blood of Jesus Christ

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
When God makes something; He loves it
...until God doesn’t. See your post below.

He cannot be forced to love what we make ourselves into by practicing evil.
Make ourselves into? We remain human beings, made in God’s image. So, what you’re saying is that God’s grace is not more powerful than our sin. Interesting that you would choose to ignore this biblical statement.

God's love is also unconditional because He loves those who repent
Only those who repent? Even the human father of the parable loved the unrepentant prodigal. God can only do less than that? What happened to God being with us in the valley of the shadow?

So we're arguing over terminology. It's a matter of language; rather than the real meat of the matter
I disagree. Words matter because words express ideas. This right here is the meat of the matter. Either God loves unconditionally, or else God only loves when it’s easy and convenient. I thought the Shepherd searched for us until he finds us. According to you, he only seeks us until we sin, and only resumes when we repent.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Make ourselves into? We remain human beings, made in God’s image. So, what you’re saying is that God’s grace is not more powerful than our sin. Interesting that you would choose to ignore this biblical statement.
So are you arguing that God's grace covers the unrepentant? What scripture do you base that off of?
Only those who repent? Even the human father of the parable loved the unrepentant prodigal. God can only do less than that? What happened to God being with us in the valley of the shadow?
God does love the unrepentant. Case in point: John 3:16
I disagree. Words matter because words express ideas. This right here is the meat of the matter. Either God loves unconditionally, or else God only loves when it’s easy and convenient. I thought the Shepherd searched for us until he finds us. According to you, he only seeks us until we sin, and only resumes when we repent.
He seeks you but He doesn't force you to repent. Repentance is a gift from God. Yes God seeks for the sinner. That's why the church is here to do God's work.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So are you arguing that God's grace covers the unrepentant? What scripture do you base that off of?
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy
The bread I give is for the life of the world
Jesus came into the world so that the world might be saved through him.
Etc.

God does love the unrepentant
That’s not what you said above.

Repentance is a gift from God
Why doesn’t God bestow that gift upon all?

Your theological ground seems unclear.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy
The bread I give is for the life of the world
Jesus came into the world so that the world might be saved through him.
Etc.
And you're ignoring perhaps a thousand other scriptures.
That’s not what you said above.
I certainly didn't contradict it.
Why doesn’t God bestow that gift upon all?

Your theological ground seems unclear.
God offers repentance to anyone who will take it.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
And you're ignoring perhaps a thousand other scriptures
I could quote a lot more too. Here’s the thing: the texts will allow us to paint God in any number of ways, which was what I was alluding to when I said that substitutionary atonement was not the only legitimate paradigm. So we have to pick one that we feel serves humanity best. I choose the one where God is life, God is Love, God desires that every person be reconciled, and God will see to it that God will realize that desire.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I could quote a lot more too. Here’s the thing: the texts will allow us to paint God in any number of ways, which was what I was alluding to when I said that substitutionary atonement was not the only legitimate paradigm. So we have to pick one that we feel serves humanity best. I choose the one where God is life, God is Love, God desires that every person be reconciled, and God will see to it that God will realize that desire.
Each book of the Bible should be taken as a whole and the intentions of the author respected. That is the doctrine of the author should be understood. A serious Bible scholar shouldn't take isolated quotes and form a doctrine around them that contradicts the author's own doctrine.

That's different than looking for hidden meanings etc. A sort of mysticism is certainly used in the scriptures but it's not supposed to contradict the main most obvious doctrine of the text or else it's likely incorrect.

I agree that God is life and God is love. However the idea that God is not also a God who will one day judge the world is contradictory to the scriptures. God is merciful and fair but we cannot ignore the fact He will judge the world.

Otherwise Jesus died in vain because there is no wrath of God. Otherwise death itself is unexplained; because God never judges; so then why do we die at all? So the fact we're mortal proves there is a judgment.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
A serious Bible scholar shouldn't take isolated quotes and form a doctrine around them that contradicts the author's own doctrine
And I think the gospel of John makes a strong move toward the belovedness of all humanity. Likewise the gospel of Matthew. Isaiah certainly fosters the idea of Israel as beloved and ultimately salvaged.

However the idea that God is not also a God who will one day judge the world is contradictory to the scriptures. God is merciful and fair but we cannot ignore the fact He will judge the world.
I think the Bible takes us through a continuum of judgment/redemption, where God becomes less wrathful and more broadly accepting. We see this in the softening of the Law into “everything depends on love” and “the sabbath was made for humanity...”. We see it with the acceptance of the Gentiles as part of the “remnant.” We see it in the move from Deuteronomy to Isaiah. Here’s the thing: the Bible makes clear that Israel is saved time and again as the “righteous remnant” — even when they patently do not merit salvation. As the move is made to the church being recognized as the “righteous remnant,” and the church becomes more broadly Gentile, we see a move toward universality. In fact, in every story I’m aware of, God favors the lesser, the unfavorable, the also-ran. That, to me, is more compelling than any other consideration.

Otherwise Jesus died in vain because there is no wrath of God
This is your substitutionary atonement bias. I think we’re moved away from a “wrath of God” model, theologically.

So the fact we're mortal proves there is a judgment
The fact we’re mortal is borne out by the fact that everyone, to date, will die.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
God said Adam and Eve would die. So they did die. But the resurrection over turns their death. Do you believe in the resurrection? If so; then you believe that a curse can be done away with after it is accomplished.

So with Jesus the curse was accomplished. He did not prosper reigning in Jerusalem. Instead of prospering He was crucified. Instead of a crown of gold; a crown of thorns. Instead of reigning as King; He was killed. But He rose from the dead. The firstborn of the resurrection.
This is extra-scriptural sophistry and bogus. David’s throne is an earthly throne. Any resurrection doesn’t change who you ancestors are. Any descendant of Coniah, resurrected or not, can not sit on the thrown. You are like someone trying to add to scripture and change it.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Please show an example of what do you mean?
For the people of Levitican Law, righteousness is defined by adherence to that Law. For Jesus’ audience, righteousness is defined by the state of one’s heart.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
For the people of Levitican Law, righteousness is defined by adherence to that Law. For Jesus’ audience, righteousness is defined by the state of one’s heart.

They both can be true at the same time. When the state of one’s heart is righteous, he will be adherent of God’s law, because he understands it is good and right. Righteous does it with right reasons, while unrighteous may also do what law says, but his reasons are wrong and that is why it is not useful for him.

Adherence to la is only consequence of righteousness. It has always been so.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
They both can be true at the same time. When the state of one’s heart is righteous, he will be adherent of God’s law, because he understands it is good and right. Righteous does it with right reasons, while unrighteous may also do what law says, but his reasons are wrong and that is why it is not useful for him.

Adherence to la is only consequence of righteousness. It has always been so.
No. Jesus healed (worked) on the sabbath. This marked a shift in paradigm.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
No. Jesus healed (worked) on the sabbath. This marked a shift in paradigm.

No, Jesus did good things on Shabbat day and it has not been forbidden ever.

In OT guards for example could do work on Shabbat day, and then all hypocrites claim that Jesus can’t heal sick person on Shabbat day. I think it is extremely hypocrite and evil from people who are against Jesus and hate truth and good.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
This is extra-scriptural sophistry and bogus. David’s throne is an earthly throne. Any resurrection doesn’t change who you ancestors are. Any descendant of Coniah, resurrected or not, can not sit on the thrown. You are like someone trying to add to scripture and change it.
Zedekiah's sons were all killed. Fact is Jeconiah is the last king of Judah. By right the kingship comes through his line. Evil Merodak king of Babylon exalted Coniah above the other captive kings in Babylon and made him sit on a throne.

By what son of David does the Messiah come? You can't point to a better candidate than Zerubbabel. It is Zerubbabel that is named "seed of Babylon" that is he is the chosen seed that of Israel that was "sifted among the nations". Don't you believe God made sure all the details lined up?

Before Zerubbabel O great mountain you shall become a plain ... The headstone is the Messiah that Zerubbabel carries.

And God said of him "for I have chosen you"

Not by might nor by strength but my Spirit saith the LORD. The true temple of God is made without hands and is made by the Spirit of the LORD.

As Zerubbabel as started to build the temple, he will finish it. That's Messianic also.

Who has despised the day of small things?

Zerubbabel along with Joshua the high priest were the two anointed ones. (Zechariah ch. 4) The oil trees that Zechariah saw. They are the representatives of the house of David and the house of Aaron. Just as there was Jesus of the house of David and John the baptist of the house of Aaron.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
And I think the gospel of John makes a strong move toward the belovedness of all humanity. Likewise the gospel of Matthew. Isaiah certainly fosters the idea of Israel as beloved and ultimately salvaged.


I think the Bible takes us through a continuum of judgment/redemption, where God becomes less wrathful and more broadly accepting. We see this in the softening of the Law into “everything depends on love” and “the sabbath was made for humanity...”. We see it with the acceptance of the Gentiles as part of the “remnant.” We see it in the move from Deuteronomy to Isaiah. Here’s the thing: the Bible makes clear that Israel is saved time and again as the “righteous remnant” — even when they patently do not merit salvation. As the move is made to the church being recognized as the “righteous remnant,” and the church becomes more broadly Gentile, we see a move toward universality. In fact, in every story I’m aware of, God favors the lesser, the unfavorable, the also-ran. That, to me, is more compelling than any other consideration.


This is your substitutionary atonement bias. I think we’re moved away from a “wrath of God” model, theologically.


The fact we’re mortal is borne out by the fact that everyone, to date, will die.
But in each of those books we can find the judgment of God. As for atonement bias. I disagree of course. I believe Jesus is the atonement.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But in each of those books we can find the judgment of God. As for atonement bias. I disagree of course. I believe Jesus is the atonement.
Yes we can, but I do t think that’s the major, overriding point in any of them. God as welcoming, forgiving, accepting is a much louder voice.
 
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