The Criminalization Of Poverty?

[Sunstone]

What do you think of laws that make it a criminal offense to do things typically done by poor or homeless people, such as sleep in public places or panhandle? Do you think these laws, which in effect criminalize poverty, are good?

http://miketodd.typepad.com/waving_or_drowning/2006/08/move_along.html

 

[BrandonE]

No. I think the safety net needs to be bigger. Of course, it will never catch everyone, but I don't see the benefit to criminalzing sleeping outside or panhandling.

My wife and I visited San Francisco several years ago, and I'd never been panhandled nearly that often in my life. It was disturbing to see so many people in need, and yet, not be able to help all of them. So, from that experience, I can understand some of the thinking that must go behind the laws, but I have to think that there is a better solution available than making it criminal to panhandle. Is jail really more efficient a place to provide shelter for these folks than shelters set up for the purpose?

Poverty is the societal problem that causes me the most emotional distress, but one that I have the fewest good ideas on how to address. The worst effect of poverty I think is the learned helplessness that the sufferers feel, and one of the most difficult to address. This is, I think, the biggest single blindspot of the free market ideal. The psychological cost of poverty is grossly underestimated by many, if not most, free market proponents.

 

[ayani]

i don't find them good, no.

i've been homeless- one of the most frightening things about it is the fear of someone ::seeing:: you and calling the police. your existence is illegal, trying to find an improvised shelter is illegal, staying in that shelter once you've found it is illegal.

falling on difficult times should not be criminal. it can be very, very hard to find the money you need to get off the street, even if it's just fifty odd dollars. making it illegal to exist in an unhoused state doesn't make things easier for the homeless, or safer.

 

[egroen]

Being poor does seem to be a criminal offense. I have a friend who recently went through a rough stretch (and too proud to ask for help, of course). She could not afford to renew the tags on her car, but there was no way for her to maintain her job without a car (public transportation sucks in Detroit)... so she drove with expired plates and she was pulled over a couple times which lead to her license being suspended. She could not pay the tickets of course, so a warrant was issued for her arrest. Next time she was pulled over for expired plates she was arrested and hauled off to jail.

Luckily she has friends in the area she finally asked for help, but if she did not -- gosh, that is a slippery slope and quick transition from 'poor' to 'criminal'.

-Erin

 

[PetShopBoy88]

What do you think of laws that make it a criminal offense to do things typically done by poor or homeless people, such as sleep in public places or panhandle? Do you think these laws, which in effect criminalize poverty, are good?

http://miketodd.typepad.com/waving_or_drowning/2006/08/move_along.html

As far as I know, sleeping in public places isn't a crime now. I certainly wouldn't want it to be, either. It is a public place. It's for the public (including the homeless) to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt another. Sleeping and panhandling don't hurt people.

 

[Jaymes]

It's foolish at best and tackles the symptoms rather than the problem. Making it illegal to sleep in public places or panhandle won't stop homeless people from existing.

 

[Sunstone]

Being poor does seem to be a criminal offense. I have a friend who recently went through a rough stretch (and too proud to ask for help, of course). She could not afford to renew the tags on her car, but there was no way for her to maintain her job without a car (public transportation sucks in Detroit)... so she drove with expired plates and she was pulled over a couple times which lead to her license being suspended. She could not pay the tickets of course, so a warrant was issued for her arrest. Next time she was pulled over for expired plates she was arrested and hauled off to jail.

Luckily she has friends in the area she finally asked for help, but if she did not -- gosh, that is a slippery slope and quick transition from 'poor' to 'criminal'.

-Erin

I've had several friends who could not afford insurance for their cars, nor afford to give up their cars (which would mean giving up their jobs).

 

[Sunstone]

it can be very, very hard to find the money you need to get off the street...

This is quite true. It can be very difficult to get off the streets once you find yourself there. Just getting and holding a job when you don't have any place to bathe except a public restroom sink is extremely difficult. Showing up for work hungry and working hard is extremely difficult. Transportation to and from work can be difficult to obtain. And saving enough money for a deposit on an apartment can be nearly impossible if you have to eat in restaurants because you don't have a kitchen.

Without help of some sort, getting off the streets is extrarodinarily difficult.

 

[michel]

What do you think of laws that make it a criminal offense to do things typically done by poor or homeless people, such as sleep in public places or panhandle? Do you think these laws, which in effect criminalize poverty, are good?

http://miketodd.typepad.com/waving_or_drowning/2006/08/move_along.html

Obviously anyone with an ounce of compassion would think that such laws are bad...........And yet............

We have a large population of poor, unemployed people from the North of England, who come South, believing they will find themselves employment (The same happens in London).

By doing so, they "lose they identity" - by that, I mean that their social security past gets wiped clean; any help they have had in the past is wiped off the blackboard.

Having no place of residence, nor any local roots, these folk turn to begging, and the soup kitchens.

We (in Bournemouth) have been asked by the local Police force not to give these people cash, or help. Why ? Because if the news gets around that we, here in the South, are a 'soft touch', we will only exascerbate the problem.

Much as the policy is distasteful, I can see the sense behind it. Of course, that is not quite as bad as 'criminalising poverty', but, to be frank, there is no reason why anyone in this country should have to be in the position of being homeless and hungry...........

 

[Ryan2065]

What do you think of laws that make it a criminal offense to do things typically done by poor or homeless people, such as sleep in public places or panhandle? Do you think these laws, which in effect criminalize poverty, are good?

This really depends where you are... In San Diego my Uncle goes around every Tuesday with 50 hamburgers from Wendys and finds the homeless sleeping outside and gives them the hamburgers. The police there do not particularly care if homeless sleep outside, but if someone reports you they have to move you... Also, at least in that city, the homeless seem to be allowed to sleep in one area for awhile then the police run them out and then they have to go to another area (say a parking lot, in the doorway of a building...)

I myself lived in Chicago most my life. I have seen homeless people sleeping outside, and in most districts at least, there is nothing wrong with this. Also, while I walk down the street, I will usually run into many people asking for money, and I have never seen any police bat an eye at them as long as they are not "pushy". In many places it seems those laws are just in place so the police are allowed to move homeless people if there is a reason to... (Say a parade, public event, disturbing the peace, etc.)

I do, however, believe the laws are not so bad in some areas... Can you imagine what would happen in the "rich" neighborhoods if homeless people were allowed to sleep there and panhandle? Those tend to be the neighborhoods that have 0 tolerance for this.

 

[Faint]

I do, however, believe the laws are not so bad in some areas... Can you imagine what would happen in the "rich" neighborhoods if homeless people were allowed to sleep there and panhandle? Those tend to be the neighborhoods that have 0 tolerance for this.

I agree with this. As there will always be insanes and incompetents, it seems silly to arrest or fine them for sleeping outdoors or asking random people for money. However, I think there are some places they should not be allowed...and so we should have designated areas for them. Shanty towns, alleys, wash tunnels or whatever. Sweep them into help centers or sweep them out of the way. I don't really enjoy walking down parking structure stairwells that smell like urine.

Their panhandling is also a great annoyance. I go out to Hollywood regularly, and the homeless are everywhere. Lots of drug addicts, incompetent slobs, and people just too lazy to do anything else. Outside the dance clubs you'll see the same faces every weekend, holding out styrofoam cups for change. Little cardboard "vet" signs. It's stupid. You might be out on a patio trying to chat up some girl and here's this grubby fool interupting you through a steel fence asking for change. As if I'm supposed to feel guilty because someone can't get his act together? Ha! I never give these people change because it encourages them. We DO have safety nets in this country...but I'm convinced a lot of these people willfully ignore their options.

The others just have plain old bad luck. But I imagine the majority set their own traps and then walked into them pretending amazement all the while. I have little sympathy for those.

And with all that in mind, the law should have the right to keep these people from places where people of my class are trying to have a good time.

(side note: this is another reason I'm against illegal immigration...why import more poverty?)

 

[Quiddity]

I go out to Hollywood regularly, and the homeless are everywhere. Lots of drug addicts, incompetent slobs, and people just too lazy to do anything else. Outside the dance clubs you'll see the same faces every weekend, holding out styrofoam cups for change. Little cardboard "vet" signs. It's stupid.

And you got all this from some walks?

 

[Ryan2065]

I agree with this. As there will always be insanes and incompetents, it seems silly to arrest or fine them for sleeping outdoors or asking random people for money. However, I think there are some places they should not be allowed...and so we should have designated areas for them. Shanty towns, alleys, wash tunnels or whatever. Sweep them into help centers or sweep them out of the way. I don't really enjoy walking down parking structure stairwells that smell like urine.

Hrm, I didn't exactly say anything of this sort... I mentioned that some areas enforce these laws while some areas do not and I don't see anything wrong with this.

While it is not right, many people buy houses in certain areas to get away from things of the city to be where they feel safe. If these people do not want homeless people in their safe "bubble" then that is what they get. This is what they pay for.

Their panhandling is also a great annoyance.

In some cases, yes... My mom used to give homeless people money in downtown Chicago... After awhile the "regulars" knew who she was and every day she would have at least 4 or 5 people begging for money on her one mile walk from the train station to her job.

I go out to Hollywood regularly, and the homeless are everywhere. Lots of drug addicts, incompetent slobs, and people just too lazy to do anything else.

Depends where you are... Most homeless people are really just down on their luck.

Outside the dance clubs you'll see the same faces every weekend, holding out styrofoam cups for change. Little cardboard "vet" signs. It's stupid. You might be out on a patio trying to chat up some girl and here's this grubby fool interupting you through a steel fence asking for change. As if I'm supposed to feel guilty because someone can't get his act together? Ha! I never give these people change because it encourages them. We DO have safety nets in this country...but I'm convinced a lot of these people willfully ignore their options.

Eh, alot of people do actually out of ignorance. I myself give food when I am able, but I do not give money.

And with all that in mind, the law should have the right to keep these people from places where people of my class are trying to have a good time.

Depends how they ask... I had one person run up to me and grab my coat asking for money (not in a threatening way, more in a "scared" way). To me this is stepping over the line.

There is also something people are not factoring in to the equation. A homeless person panhandling outside of a place of business can be pretty bad for the business. From the business owners side this wouldn't be the best thing.

 

[Faint]

And you got all this from some walks?

I wouldn't say "some". I'm out there just about every weekend.
You know--hedonism...clubbing...women...bars...

 

[Quiddity]

I wouldn't say "some". I'm out there just about every weekend.
You know--hedonism...clubbing...women...bars...

I know it all to well.

But seriously, you think they are most all like this?

 

[Faint]

I know it all to well.

But seriously, you think they are most all like this?

Hollywood/Vine/La Brea/Sunset/Santa Monica Blvd...yes. I know a crack head, meth freak when I see one. I've literally seen the same four or five dudes (independent of each other as far as I can tell) over the course of a year regularly at several diffent venues. As I said, either these Hollywood homeless dudes are on drugs (I won't accuse them of being drunk...though that's often the case too...but so am I so I can't throw stones), mentally incompetant (you know...yelling at themselves, delusional, paranoid, or whatever), or just lazy (in the case of the familiar faces still being homeless in the same place for a year).

On the other hand...I'm sure you've heard stories of executives and other middle class people slipping into ragged clothing on the weekends, panhandling and then driving away in their BMWs? One of these cases is supposedly documented...if I find the link I'll post it, but apparently a group of business men went "pro" with begging...mastered the act to get people to pity them, dressed in shabby clothes, drove the real homeless dudes out of a "high traffic" area, and in turn made about $50,000 each in half a year. Of course that might be an urban legend.

 

[Ryan2065]

On the other hand...I'm sure you've heard stories of executives and other middle class people slipping into ragged clothing on the weekends, panhandling and then driving away in their BMWs? One of these cases is supposedly documented...if I find the link I'll post it, but apparently a group of business men went "pro" with begging...mastered the act to get people to pity them, dressed in shabby clothes, drove the real homeless dudes out of a "high traffic" area, and in turn made about $50,000 each in half a year. Of course that might be an urban legend.

Some kids at my college did a project where they went out and pretended to be homeless and they ended up making I think it was $24 an hour

 

[Booko]

This is quite true. It can be very difficult to get off the streets once you find yourself there. Just getting and holding a job when you don't have any place to bathe except a public restroom sink is extremely difficult. Showing up for work hungry and working hard is extremely difficult. Transportation to and from work can be difficult to obtain. And saving enough money for a deposit on an apartment can be nearly impossible if you have to eat in restaurants because you don't have a kitchen.

Without help of some sort, getting off the streets is extrarodinarily difficult.

Oh, and you can't get welfare, because you don't have an address!

 

[Booko]

On the other hand...I'm sure you've heard stories of executives and other middle class people slipping into ragged clothing on the weekends, panhandling and then driving away in their BMWs? One of these cases is supposedly documented...if I find the link I'll post it, but apparently a group of business men went "pro" with begging...mastered the act to get people to pity them, dressed in shabby clothes, drove the real homeless dudes out of a "high traffic" area, and in turn made about $50,000 each in half a year. Of course that might be an urban legend.

Maybe it was plagiarized from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's "The Crooked Man."

 

[BrandonE]

I agree with this...<big snip>...why import more poverty?)

If this was satire, you have a brilliant future as a writer. If it wasn't... :sad: