The Cause without a Cause

[Sgt. Pepper]

Thanks. I have been sick with worry since I love Busia so much, but I talked to a vet online today so I think I know what it is and it is not serious. However she needs to be seen by a vet and hopefully the vet clinic will be able to fit me in tomorrow.

I hope your cat is feeling better, my friend. Please keep me updated.

It might surprise you to know that I have had the same struggles with the Christian/Baha'i God, who I believe are one and the same God. Not only did I believe He had ignored my suffering and did not care how much I suffered, but I also believed He deliberately sent me suffering to punish me for being a bad Baha'i, or at the very least to test me. Part of the reason I believed the this was because of what my older brother used to tell me that God was killing my cats to teach me a lesson to be more detached. I had not been deepened in the Faith so I was very vulnerable to what my brother said.

That was a long time ago but it stuck in my mind for a long time until I started getting involved with other Baha'is who knew better. It took me a long time to dig my way out of that hole and the digging started in 2013, but even after that I still had an uphill battle because I did not like God, let alone love God, and I could not believe God was loving. I still question how a loving God could allow so much suffering in the world, not only my own suffering, but I try to love God because I know it is in my best interest.

Thank you for sharing your story with me here, Trailblazer. I truly appreciate it. Contrary to what you believe about God, I believe that it is in my best interest to forsake my belief and faith in him. I don't need or want him in my life anymore, and I know that I am much better off without him. I began to heal emotionally and gradually began to turn my life around only after I gave up my belief and faith in God, and I genuinely believe that it was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health and my emotional well-being.

 

[Trailblazer]

I hope your cat is feeling better, my friend. Please keep me updated.

I took her to the vet today and found out that she has a urinary issue, an inflamed bladder. The vet gave her something for pain in hopes that would help her start drinking more water and urinating more. If she does not improve the plan is to take her back so the vet can get a urine sample to determine if she has a bladder infection.

 

[Alien826]

Does that mean that you do not believe that God can prove He exists until He actually proves that He exists?

No. What I mean is that I don't believe God does exist until he proves it. (I'll quickly say that it could be said that all proof ultimately would come from God). Until the existence of God is established, all speculation about what he would or would not do is moot. We can kick around a lot of "what if"s, but an argument about what something would do if it existed is not evidence for its existence. The "parable" of the Invisible Gardner is worth reading.
Parable of the Invisible Gardener - Wikipedia

Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisible gardener." So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves." At last the Skeptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Invisible_Gardener#cite_note-1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Invisible_Gardener#cite_note-1

A good question is this: Even if God can prove that He exists, why would God prove that he exists?
Another good question is this: Even if God can prove that He exists, why should God prove that He exists?

I'm not sure I can add to the reasons believers give. Probably the best, though infuriating to skeptics, is that God has reasons that are not understandable to us.

Give me one good reason why God would or should prove that He exists.

OK (the answer depends on Christian theology). God wants us all to be saved. Belief is necessary for salvation. Many are not saved because they have a skeptical turn of mind that refuses to believe without evidence. These people could be saved if God offered some proof. By withholding proof God reduces the number of saved people.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..God wants us all to be saved. Belief is necessary for salvation. Many are not saved because they have a skeptical turn of mind that refuses to believe without evidence. These people could be saved if God offered some proof..

No .. you saying so does not make it true.
It's easy for God to cause each and every one of us to believe, if He so wished.

..but we al have different "works" that we are doing.
God is closer to us than you might realise.
He doesn't need "wifi" to know what's going on in our minds.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is closer to us than you might realise.
He doesn't need "wifi" to know what's going on in our minds.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. What I mean is that I don't believe God does exist until he proves it. (I'll quickly say that it could be said that all proof ultimately would come from God). Until the existence of God is established, all speculation about what he would or would not do is moot. We can kick around a lot of "what if"s, but an argument about what something would do if it existed is not evidence for its existence. The "parable" of the Invisible Gardner is worth reading.

I agree that all proof ultimately would come from God since there is no way we can locate God and verify His existence.

I do not agree that until the existence of God is established, all speculation about what he would or would not do is moot. The reason why I do not agree with that is because God is not going to ‘establish’ His existence the way you require that He establish it. God provides evidence by way of the Messengers that He sends, God does not provide absolute proof. Those Messengers reveal ‘some’ of what God has done, what God does and does not do, but much has never been revealed and that is because we do not need to know it and/or we could never understand it if it was revealed to us.

Trailblazer said: A good question is this: Even if God can prove that He exists, why would God prove that he exists?
Another good question is this: Even if God can prove that He exists, why should God prove that He exists?

I'm not sure I can add to the reasons believers give. Probably the best, though infuriating to skeptics, is that God has reasons for not proving that He exists that are not understandable to us.

That would not be my answer. My answer would be that God has His reasons for not proving that He exists and they are understandable to us.

Trailblazer said: Give me one good reason why God would or should prove that He exists.

OK (the answer depends on Christian theology). God wants us all to be saved. Belief is necessary for salvation. Many are not saved because they have a skeptical turn of mind that refuses to believe without evidence. These people could be saved if God offered some proof. By withholding proof God reduces the number of saved people.

Yes, the answer depends upon theology, but it does not necessarily depend upon Christian theology. I do not share Christian theology so I do not believe in salvation. I don’t believe in original sin, so there is nothing to be saved from. I believe that God wants us all to believe in Him and that is why God sends Messengers, but God gave us all free will so God wants us to choose whether to believe or in the Messengers or not.

God does not want to prove He exists in any way other than sending the Messengers, so if we don’t recognize them then we won’t know anything about God, including whether God exists. I cannot say what the consequences of disbelief will be but I don’t believe it has anything to do with being unsaved, since there isn’t anything to be saved from except our own lack of knowledge of God.