The Book of Mormon Witnesses Prove the Golden Plates Were Real

[ToGodorNottoGod]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not? We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences. This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made, and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

 

[Audie]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not? We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences. This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made, and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

Could not be more convinced if the entire Smith family testified

 

[Subduction Zone]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That barely qualifies as ordinary evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Also, can you show that this testimony was done in a public place that was in no way under the control of the Mormons? If not you do not even have ordinary evidence. You only have highly suspect claims.

 

[Subduction Zone]

With very minor research I found that the first three witnesses all eventually split with the Mormon church. One of them recanted on his testimony. Another never did, but his claims were said to be inconsistent over time.

The second group of witnesses appear to be even less impressive. I am sorry but the witness claims appear to fail.

 

[We Never Know]

With very minor research I found that the first three witnesses all eventually split with the Mormon church. One of them recanted on his testimony. Another never did, but his claims were said to be inconsistent over time.

The second group of witnesses appear to be even less impressive. I am sorry but the witness claims appear to fail.

Without evidence all you have is a claim. Not to mention if you researched it, why not post your sources?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not? We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences. This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made, and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

If the Angel Moroni come to collect the golden plates, how will the professor find them? Or is the scripture of mormons the only proof the plate existed?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Without evidence all you have is a claim. Not to mention if you researched it, why not post your sources?

So sad, still without a clue I see.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If the Angel Moroni come to collect the golden plates, how will the professor find them? Or is the scripture of mormons the only proof the plate existed?

I do believe that the Mormons have a separate history. They do no how to use the internet so most critical articles get buried. Wikipedia is a very strong source so it is hard to bury. And if you are willing to search beyond the first few pages of stuff written by Mormons you can find articles like this one that rip into the claims rather thoroughly:

Janis Hutchinson

 

[Spirit of Light]

I do believe that the Mormons have a separate history. They do no how to use the internet so most critical articles get buried. Wikipedia is a very strong source so it is hard to bury. And if you are willing to search beyond the first few pages of stuff written by Mormons you can find articles like this one that rip into the claims rather thoroughly:

Janis Hutchinson

My goal is not to discredit mormom`s belief or teaching I found the OP to be interesting and my question was ment more to learn than to critique those who are Mormons

 

[McBell]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

Perhaps your conveniently anonymous "very informed" college history professor friend should prepare for you a statement to present?

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

And?
Should we hold up his being a history professor or perhaps his being very informed or perhaps his anonymity up on a pedestal here?

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

It seems that your "very informed" anonymous college history professor is not "very informed" when it comes to the courts.
Fact is, eyewitness testimony is the least reliable of all evidence.
Even circumstantial evidence is placed higher.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

Ah, so the thousands who saw David Blane make an airplane disappear means that the airplane disappearing was quite real, right?

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not?

No, it is not.
The best you got is the opinions of 11 plus 3 people who make extraordinary claims.

We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences.

The choir is typically "convinced" on the flimsiest of 'evidence'.
Does not mean there is any truth to the claims.
So no, eyewitness testimony is not "good evidence" outside the choir.

This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

You will need a much better sales pitch if you are looking to recruit outside the choir.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made,

No they haven't.
Not even close.

and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

Here we have a sad attempt at recruitment by someone who appears to have just gotten out of seminary school.

 

[danieldemol]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not? We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences. This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made, and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

All witnesses prove is collusion. The Bible has to make that claim because it too uses collusion to peddle made up stories.

 

[Altfish]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not? We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences. This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made, and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

What!!
Joseph Smith was not a crooked charlatan?

I await publication and peer review of this evidence ... I'm not holding my breath

 

[Subduction Zone]

What!!
Joseph Smith was not a crooked charlatan?

I await publication and peer review of this evidence ... I'm not holding my breath

It is an old Mormon apologetic. One that ignores that the first three all left the church when they realized that Smith was a con artist. At least one of the three recanted, another had conflicting accounts and the third did not live long after leaving.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

It is an old Mormon apologetic. One that ignores that the first three all left the church when they realized that Smith was a con artist. At least one of the three recanted, another had conflicting accounts and the third did not live long after leaving.

OK, wait a sec. It is true that some of the witnesses left the church, but none of them denied their testimony. That is the issue isn't it? They never did say what we saw was phony, they just got disgruntled over how Joseph Smith was handling things in the church which happened after they saw the plates. They never did say the plates were fake. So doesn't this mean their testimonies are intact?

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK, wait a sec. It is true that some of the witnesses left the church, but none of them denied their testimony. That is the issue isn't it? They never did say what we saw was phony, they just got disgruntled over how Joseph Smith was handling things in the church which happened after they saw the plates. They never did say the plates were fake. So doesn't this mean their testimonies are intact?

Actually one admitted that he never saw the tables, just "visions". As the link that I provided showed. Another's memory was sketchy to say the least. The third did not live long after he left the church (I do not think that any funny business was suspected).

People are very easy to fool. And all three were highly biased towards the religion already. Their "testimony" is worthless. As at least one other has pointed out eyewitness testimony is not very reliable at all. In a legal trial it is the weakest evidence allowed. You need something much stronger than that to support Mormonism.

And then there are all of the failed claims of Mormonism. Those do far more damage to the religion than the weak support from people that already drank the Kool-Aid.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

OK, lets be a little more realistic here. This link has a brief one page blurb on each witness, who they were before, and what they were doing, and what they did after they were witnesses to the reality of the existence of the Golden Plates from which Joseph Smith through the Gift and power of God translated the plates into the Book of Mormon. If God helped Smith translate, then the Book of Mormon would be true, right? And if God further gave witnesses to the reality of the plates, they would give the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon an even stronger footing in reality, odd as it is to us, the ancients did write on metal plates. The witnesses saw them, and they all affirmed that even in their much later lives. What's not to believe here?
What Happened to the 3 Witnesses? | LDS Living

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK, lets be a little more realistic here. This link has a brief one page blurb on each witness, who they were before, and what they were doing, and what they did after they were witnesses to the reality of the existence of the Golden Plates from which Joseph Smith through the Gift and power of God translated the plates into the Book of Mormon. If God helped Smith translate, then the Book of Mormon would be true, right? And if God further gave witnesses to the reality of the plates, they would give the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon an even stronger footing in reality, odd as it is to us, the ancients did write on metal plates. The witnesses saw them, and they all affirmed that even in their much later lives. What's not to believe here?
What Happened to the 3 Witnesses? | LDS Living

Sorry, you cannot use a highly biased source and expect people to treat it with any respect at all. Your "evidence" is so weak that you could not have talked to a real historian. Someone somewhere was fibbing.

Once again, eyewitness evidence is rather weak. Worse yet you had Kool-Aid drinkers instead of reliable independent sources. Lastly you have to ignore the endless failures of Mormonism. To be reliable witnesses need to be unbiased. None of the witnesses for Mormonism were unbiased. The event must not be under the control of the claimant. Again that was not the case here. The so called evidence is worhtless.

And once again how do you deal with the failures of Mormonism?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have a friend who can't post here right now, and so I told him I would present his case for him on the Book of Mormon. He is a professor of history at a college and very informed, but is quite busy with a lot of projects, so I am helping him out here.

He sincerely believes the witnesses to the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon were real and the factual, straight up and straight forward case is the witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

There are two angles to this which mutually reinforce each other. The 3 witnesses saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes," though this does not mean they did not see the plates in reality, it was just a seriously powerful and spiritual moment for them and they so testified of them. True they left the church with only one of them returning, but none of them ever denied tehri testimony that they saw the plates and heard the voice of the angel telling them they were real. In a court of law this is powerful evidence.

The 11 other witnesses testify they not only saw the plates, but actually "hefted" them, that is felt, saw, and turned the pages of the plates while Joseph Smith showed them to them. This makes them quite real and the origin of the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith translated by the "Gift and power of God" through the Urim and Thummim and a seer stone.

In a court of law, 11 plus 3 witnesses all testifying is a powerful evidence for truth is it not? We therefore have good evidence and a good case for the Book of Mormon here through actual and eye witness occurrences. This can help people learn the truth of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, come and join Mormonism, and be forgiven of your sins. The witnesses are a powerful force verifying Joseph Smith being truthful about the Book of Mormon.

Witnesses have always helped establish the truth of when a claim is made, and in the Bible it states the Lord's way of when something is in the mouth of two or three witnesses truth is established. Here we have an over abundance of truth presented through over a dozen solid witnesses.

Like all those apparitions of The Holy Mother Mary too.

With solid proof like that. What can I say?

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

Hey thank you all for your responses, this has been very fun, interesting, informative, and useful......