The Bible seems to always promote a flat earth belief over a spherical earth

[Brickjectivity]

This image claims that there are 200+ flat earth Bible verses. Though I think at least a few dozen are very relevant and suggest a flat earth rather than a spherical earth. Or they are related to the sun literally going around the earth (part of flat earth theory).

I don't want to interfere with your freedom from your original church, however these claims are inaccurate and may interfere with the freedom of others trying to made sense of scriptures. Its not about planets. Scripture puts Israel forward as the Earth. Its not a planet. Its a country. When canon refers to Earth it is talking about Israel: the nation. That is the earth referred to.

It does not refer to anything else, not any other countries or other lands. In Genesis the country called Israel is made. It rises from the nations, which are stylistically called the waters. The nations are waters in Psalms and in other references. Israel comes out of them, analogous to Moses who is drawn out of the river. 'Earth' is not scientific and is not about a flat earth. There is absolutely no implication in the canon of anything about a planet, no treatment of our position in a solar system.

Looking at the verses referenced: I see that none of them presume knowledge of a planet, nor a Discworld situation. They are not in pursuit of astrological knowledge. Astrology is rejected in Judaism and considered a form of divination (which is illegal). Any politician claiming astrological knowledge is operating illegally. This makes perfect sense as astrology generally is a means of extortion.

 

[We Never Know]

The ancient illustrations often depict as circular and curved, and geocentric with the sun, moon, stars and planets arrayed on firmament.

That didn't answer my question...

If a circle is referring to a flat earth....
Does that mean the four corners are referring to a square or rectangular earth since circles don't have corners?

 

[shunyadragon]

That didn't answer my question...

If a circle is referring to a flat earth....
Does that mean the four corners are referring to a square or rectangular earth since circles don't have corners?

Not necessarily, Early maps were in deed flat and It may easily refer to the four directions the commonly we know today as NEWS,

The earliest Babylonian map shows a flat disk with rays from the 6th century BCE when the Pentateuch was first compiled.

7 Views of Planet Earth: From Early Cartography to Satellite Imagery - Google Arts & Culture

Explore our home planet and see how our perspective of the Blue Marble has evolved over time

artsandculture.google.com

This later Arabic Round Flat Earth Map shows the four directions or corners.

New correct map of the flat surface, stationary earth

Flat earth map. English and Arabic. Text in English and Arabic and illustrations on verso. Available also through the Library of Congress Web site as a raster image.

www.loc.gov

 

[We Never Know]

Not necessarily, Early maps were in deed flat and It may easily refer to the four directions the commonly we know today as NEWS,

The earliest Babylonian map shows a flat disk with rays from the 6th century BCE when the Pentateuch was first compiled.

7 Views of Planet Earth: From Early Cartography to Satellite Imagery - Google Arts & Culture

Explore our home planet and see how our perspective of the Blue Marble has evolved over time

artsandculture.google.com

This later Arabic Flat Earth Map shows the four directions or corners.

New correct map of the flat surface, stationary earth

Flat earth map. English and Arabic. Text in English and Arabic and illustrations on verso. Available also through the Library of Congress Web site as a raster image.

www.loc.gov

The Babylonian map shows their world wasn't very big...

....

 

[excreationist]

I don't want to interfere with your freedom from your original church, however these claims are inaccurate and may interfere with the freedom of others trying to made sense of scriptures. Its not about planets. Scripture puts Israel forward as the Earth. Its not a planet. Its a country. When canon refers to Earth it is talking about Israel: the nation. That is the earth referred to.

It does not refer to anything else, not any other countries or other lands. In Genesis the country called Israel is made. It rises from the nations, which are stylistically called the waters. The nations are waters in Psalms and in other references. Israel comes out of them, analogous to Moses who is drawn out of the river. 'Earth' is not scientific and is not about a flat earth. There is absolutely no implication in the canon of anything about a planet, no treatment of our position in a solar system.

Looking at the verses referenced: I see that none of them presume knowledge of a planet, nor a Discworld situation. They are not in pursuit of astrological knowledge. Astrology is rejected in Judaism and considered a form of divination (which is illegal). Any politician claiming astrological knowledge is operating illegally. This makes perfect sense as astrology generally is a means of extortion.

Bible translations are supposed to use the most accurate language possible. Are you saying that every instance of "Earth" (or world?) in the Bible actually means "Israel"?
So are you claiming that Genesis 1 is talking about Israel even though Abraham hadn't been born yet? Do you have any reputable sources for this e.g. books, etc? Though the existence of supporting books doesn't necessarily make your claim reasonable.

Astrology is rejected in Judaism and considered a form of divination (which is illegal)

Kabbalah Centre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The Kabbalah Centre has a strong belief in astrology and asserts that astrology has always been part of Judaism"

And I think the wise men in Matthew involve astrology.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Bible translations are supposed to use the most accurate language possible. Are you saying that every instance of "Earth" (or world?) in the Bible actually means "Israel"?

Its says based on plain definitions it doesn't mean 'Planet'. It means either 'ground' or something like dirt. Translating it to 'Earth' is imposing a meaning that isn't there.

Genesis is part 1 of a 5 volume set of laws. Genesis like the other 4 volumes is full of commands and laws which are followed. These laws govern the 'Land of Israel', not every land.

Right away this shows that it cannot be the flat planet any church is imposing onto it. The story is of dry land appearing out of an ocean that gets divided above and below to uncover land which was covered. Nowhere does 'Earth' appear in the original tongue but only 'ground'. Its a good analogue of Israel appearing in the midst of the nations. Psalms and prophets make use of this analogue in poetry.

Creation stories are local. The first chapter of Genesis says that dry land appears in the midst of waters. Aka oceans. Its directly counter to Egyptian myth which says the land is deposited by a river, which I bring up because creation stories don't have to talk about planets. They don't have to envision a big picture and can just be about a polity.

"The Kabbalah Centre has a strong belief in astrology and asserts that astrology has always been part of Judaism"

And I think the wise men in Matthew involve astrology.

Kabbalah makes no superstitious predictions is therefore not divination. It appears around 200 or 300 CE though could be older and is only useful to people already heavily schooled in Tanach, another reason not to think its meant to trick anybody. Most should regard it as a superstitious toy, and everyon is warned that it is not for the unskilled.

Divination in scripture is a means of tricking people, such as when Joseph claims powers of divination over his brothers (Genesis chap 42). Matthew is irrelevant to the question of whether the bible is about a flat planet. Just about every aspect of Matthew including the insertion of astrologers as if they were wise men, suggests it is not to be taken literally by Jews. Maybe by Christians but not Jews. Also nowhere does Matthew describe the creation of a planet or define Earth as flat.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Its says based on plain definitions it doesn't mean 'Planet'. It means either 'ground' or something like dirt. Translating it to 'Earth' is imposing a meaning that isn't there.

Genesis is part 1 of a 5 volume set of laws. Genesis like the other 4 volumes is full of commands and laws which are followed. These laws govern the 'Land of Israel', not every land.

Right away this shows that it cannot be the flat planet any church is imposing onto it. The story is of dry land appearing out of an ocean that gets divided above and below to uncover land which was covered. Nowhere does 'Earth' appear in the original tongue but only 'ground'. Its a good analogue of Israel appearing in the midst of the nations. Psalms and prophets make use of this analogue in poetry.

Creation stories are local. The first chapter of Genesis says that dry land appears in the midst of waters. Aka oceans. Its directly counter to Egyptian myth which says the land is deposited by a river, which I bring up because creation stories don't have to talk about planets. They don't have to envision a big picture and can just be about a polity.


Kabbalah makes no superstitious predictions is therefore not divination. It appears around 200 or 300 CE though could be older and is only useful to people already heavily schooled in Tanach, another reason not to think its meant to trick anybody. Most should regard it as a superstitious toy, and everyon is warned that it is not for the unskilled.

Divination in scripture is a means of tricking people, such as when Joseph claims powers of divination over his brothers (Genesis chap 42). Matthew is irrelevant to the question of whether the bible is about a flat planet. Just about every aspect of Matthew including the insertion of astrologers as if they were wise men, suggests it is not to be taken literally by Jews. Maybe by Christians but not Jews. Also nowhere does Matthew describe the creation of a planet or define Earth as flat.

You appear to be reinterpreting after the fact. You might have a point if you could find any spherical Earth quotes in the Bible, but they simply do not exist.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You appear to be reinterpreting after the fact. You might have a point if you could find any spherical Earth quotes in the Bible, but they simply do not exist.

I hear you. I am denying interpretations that have been projected onto it: such as claims that 'ground' refers to 'Planet Earth', that there is any concept of all nations included when it is written specifically for one nation of people and no other. I also provide an example of Egypt doing the same with its story of its creation. Babylonians do the same thing. Why would an ancient reader of Hebrew suddenly presume his creation story was about everybody when it would have been pretty obviously about his own group, couched in laws for his group only, including a story of a covenant for his group, his group surrounded by hostile nations that he would poetically describe as oceans surrounding his country.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I hear you. I am denying interpretations that have been projected onto it: such as claims that 'ground' refers to 'Planet Earth', that there is any concept of all nations included when it is written specifically for one nation of people and no other. I also provide an example of Egypt doing the same with its story of its creation. Babylonians do the same thing. Why would an ancient reader of Hebrew suddenly presume his creation story was about everybody when it would have been pretty obviously about his own group, couched in laws for his group only, including a story of a covenant for his group, his group surrounded by hostile nations that he would poetically describe as oceans surrounding his country.

Back in those days it was common to not even think of one's enemies as "people". Look at the Old Testament and slavery laws. Slavery was rather limited when it came to one's fellow Hebrew. It was much less limited when it came to dealing with slaves from foreign lands.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Back in those days it was common to not even think of one's enemies as "people". Look at the Old Testament and slavery laws. Slavery was rather limited when it came to one's fellow Hebrew. It was much less limited when it came to dealing with slaves from foreign lands.

There is a lot I don't know that could be found in a Talmud. I am partial to what you're saying, however I'd have to consult a Talmud and that would be complicated. I have a limited knowledge of how employment worked in ancient Judaism. They did have slave masters. If you were Jewish you were an employee, but if you were not then you could be indentured indefinitely...within the old system. Possibly Jews could also be unethically, indefinitely indentured, but I'm not sure. It appears the men from other countries were required to be circumcised while in the country, so visiting the country was somewhat a conversion process I suppose. Therefore everyone outside the country who was not circumcised must have held some other status than a Jewish citizen did. This creates some confusion, because it seems like a slave brought into the country would be circumcised. I'm unsure.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is a lot I don't know that could be found in a Talmud. I am partial to what you're saying, however I'd have to consult a Talmud and that would be complicated. I have a limited knowledge of how employment worked in ancient Judaism. They did have slave masters. If you were Jewish you were an employee, but if you were not then you could be indentured indefinitely...within the old system. Possibly Jews could also be unethically, indefinitely indentured, but I'm not sure. It appears the men from other countries were required to be circumcised while in the country, so visiting the country was somewhat a conversion process I suppose. Therefore everyone outside the country who was not circumcised must have held some other status than a Jewish citizen did. This creates some confusion, because it seems like a slave brought into the country would be circumcised. I'm unsure.

Talmud or Bible it is rather clear that the proper term is "slave". Even indentured Hebrew servants could be beaten, but within reason. Foreign slaves were slaves for life and could be passed on to one's children. And female Hebrews sold into slavery were also slaves for life. Plus the OT gives directions on how to trick a fellow Hebrew into life long slavery. That issue is one of the main failings of the OT. Talmud. whatever.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Talmud or Bible it is rather clear that the proper term is "slave". Even indentured Hebrew servants could be beaten, but within reason. Foreign slaves were slaves for life and could be passed on to one's children. And female Hebrews sold into slavery were also slaves for life. Plus the OT gives directions on how to trick a fellow Hebrew into life long slavery. That issue is one of the main failings of the OT. Talmud. whatever.

I have to with hold judgment on that. We don't actually have the bible. This is not talked about much, but we actually don't have a complete bible. Some of it is still only passed down by word of mouth. In a way its like if you have the source code for some 'Open source' software but no accompanying manual or comments about the code and some of the source code may also be missing. The attitude towards outsiders is not something I can truly discern.

 

[excreationist]

Its says based on plain definitions it doesn't mean 'Planet'. It means either 'ground' or something like dirt. Translating it to 'Earth' is imposing a meaning that isn't there.

I thought earth meant "Israel"??? So now are you saying that "God created the heavens and the earth" means God created dirt or ground? Do you have any reputable sources saying this? I mean books or a website, etc? Or did you invent this?

Creation stories are local.

So the whole world/earth wasn't created at once - only a single nation like Israel?

Kabbalah makes no superstitious predictions is therefore not divination.

Actually it seems very similar as our astrology - they even use the same names and symbols e.g. Capricorn:

Capricorn (Tevet)

The month of Tevet and the sign of Capricorn are both ruled by Saturn. Saturn provides the law enforcement in the cosmos, giving us each exactly w...

www.kabbalah.com

About predictions:

Astrology Forecast for April 7-13, 2024

With four planets in Aries, three in Pisces, two in Taurus, and one in Aquarius, this week’s astrological climate promises to be dynamic. The Su...

www.kabbalah.com

 

[Brickjectivity]

I thought earth meant "Israel"??? So now are you saying that "God created the heavens and the earth" means God created dirt or ground? Do you have any reputable sources saying this? I mean books or a website, etc? Or did you invent this?

It can be inferred that Eden is made in Genesis, but Eden is not a place we can reach by traveling. That the reader is supposed to kind-of see Israel in Genesis 1 is inferred by me but definitely not all the other countries. They are part of the ocean. They are not part of the LORD's creation. There is no way to travel to Eden on foot or by boat, however the layout of the tabernacle is like Eden. In a way you can travel to Eden by entering the tabernacle, so wherever Israel is you can get to Eden. The reason that Genesis is about Israel is that it is part of the books of the law for Israel, but Israel is in figure created in Genesis not the other countries. They are part of the shapeless void, before the creation of Eden.

So the whole world/earth wasn't created at once - only a single nation like Israel?

If someone (a YEC) wants to project that it is outer Space and planet Earth, they just use capital 'E' on earth and claim its a science text. In this case, however, capitalizing the E is pushing the boundaries of honesty; because 'Earth' refers to a planet while the passage plainly does not. Similarly 'Heavens' is a trendy translation choice since it can be seen from context that it is the sky. The waters withdraw leaving land and sky in between them, and Eden is there. Of course Adam and Eve are driven out of Eden and must go East. Similarly one cannot reenter Eden though one heads West, because there is a barrier. Beyond the barrier is the tree of knowledge of good & evil as well as the tree of life. One of these gives life, and one gives knowledge.

In Christianity there is a famous story about the vale of the temple being torn. This signifies that the tree of life is accessible again, however in Judaism this is not so. No one enters the holiest place for very long and risks their life to go near it.

Here is a link to blueletterbible where can be seen the interlinear:

Genesis 1 :: New International Version (NIV) You can see there that the word for ground (eretz or something like eretz) has a link that can show you all the ways the word has been translated: ground, country, etc.

Actually it seems very similar as our astrology - they even use the same names and symbols e.g. Capricorn:

I think concern about divination is a moral concern not a specious one or having anything to do with actual supernatural ability. If you are not doing anyone any harm and merely studying stars then how is it divination? But if you are doing something like the Mayan priests and pretending to have great powers, so that you can fool people then that is divination.

 

[excreationist]

It can be inferred that Eden is made in Genesis, but Eden is not a place we can reach by traveling.

Genesis 2 says Eden is connected to four rivers that would be from the everyday world. I don't think it was in another dimension like heaven or Narnia. YECs say that you can't find it today due to a global flood.

In Christianity there is a famous story about the vale of the temple being torn. This signifies that the tree of life is accessible again,

No it means "Only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year" then after that anyone is able to be close to God's presence through Jesus.

I think concern about divination is a moral concern not a specious one or having anything to do with actual supernatural ability. If you are not doing anyone any harm and merely studying stars then how is it divination? But if you are doing something like the Mayan priests and pretending to have great powers, so that you can fool people then that is divination.

In my previous post I later added this:

Astrology Forecast for April 7-13, 2024

With four planets in Aries, three in Pisces, two in Taurus, and one in Aquarius, this week’s astrological climate promises to be dynamic. The Su...

www.kabbalah.com

It is saying the Kabbalah Center website does include superstitious predictions in their astrology so maybe it is therefore "divination"

 

[excreationist]

Its says based on plain definitions it doesn't mean 'Planet'. It means either 'ground' or something like dirt. Translating it to 'Earth' is imposing a meaning that isn't there.

If someone (a YEC) wants to project that it is outer Space and planet Earth, they just use capital 'E' on earth and claim its a science text. In this case, however, capitalizing the E is pushing the boundaries of honesty; because 'Earth' refers to a planet while the passage plainly does not.

Ok I see your point about the capital E. Though I think when it talks about the circle of the earth or circle of the dirt it is talking about the shape of all of the dirt.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Genesis 2 says Eden is connected to four rivers that would be from the everyday world. I don't think it was in another dimension like heaven or Narnia. YECs say that you can't find it today due to a global flood.

No it means "Only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year" then after that anyone is able to be close to God's presence through Jesus.

In my previous post I later added this:

Astrology Forecast for April 7-13, 2024

With four planets in Aries, three in Pisces, two in Taurus, and one in Aquarius, this week’s astrological climate promises to be dynamic. The Su...

www.kabbalah.com

It is saying the Kabbalah Center website does include superstitious predictions in their astrology so maybe it is therefore "divination"

Interesting. Well, thanks it is of course possible for me to be wrong. Its happened before. YEC's say all kinds of things, and no matter what they are going to insist that they are necessary for Christianity. They're always at the center, and its like everyone must have them or Christianity will go down the like Titanic. In their minds we need them to prove everything is true, so they will run obstacle courses to come up with rube goldberg machines in order to do it.

The kabbalah center is their own thing, and I don't want to criticize them. I suppose they might be involved in divination as I understand it, but I haven't reviewed what they are doing. Hopefully they aren't claiming super powers or godhood or selling afterlife insurance.

Ok I see your point about the capital E. Though I think when it talks about the circle of the earth or circle of the dirt it is talking about the shape of all of the dirt.

Good points of course. There is a border around countries, although in the original language the literal term is rope. Rope is how they say border or used to. Maybe the circle of the earth is a reference to that border, but I am reaching with that guess. I don't know.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Babylonian map shows their world wasn't very big...

True, but neither was the Hebrew Tribes world in 600 BCE, though it included Egypt. The scriptures of the Pentateuch inherited the worldview of the Sumerian, Babylonian and Canaanite cultures in their scriptures.

Note: The lter Arabic flat world map is not much bigger and showed the four corners.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Bible seems to always promote a flat earth belief over a spherical earth

Why worry about the Bible, please?
Regards

 

[Kathryn]

Hey, all I know is that I recently visited The East and every single thing looked and felt different there. Everything - the language, the food, the terrain, the trees, even the grass - it all looked and felt different. But I believe the earth is a roundish sphere. Oh, I also passed over the International Date Line and ended up arriving "earlier" than I left! I felt terrible for about a week. LOL