The argument that God provides a basis for objective moral values is bad

[Cephus]

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. but certainly, if there is a God, he is absolute, and so are his laws and teachings

How do you know that? How have you tested this proposition and found it to be accurate?

 

[SomeRandom]

Suppose that a nuclear war kills everybody except people in, say, Switzerland. Do you think that their current morality will improve from there?

I think they'd remain Switzerland on the issue.


Sorry, had to say it

 

[serp777]

I'm not even sure if our morals are effective for a utilitarian society. US has the large number of people incarcerated and always been high up in number of crimes per capita. We don't take care of the poor, sick, mentally ill, and so on in any great efficiency. But, our system is extremely efficient for producing multinational corporations that buy lobbyists to create laws that benefit them more than the people.

Certainly true. i think we're making progress of a kind though. It think that we have more utility now than we did in bronze age Palestine. But there does tend to be a lot of utility for lobbying interests and the business sector, as well as politicians.

 

[Ouroboros]

Certainly true. i think we're making progress of a kind though. It think that we have more utility now than we did in bronze age Palestine. But there does tend to be a lot of utility for lobbying interests and the business sector, as well as politicians.

Agree. We still have a long way to go.

 

[jchristopher]

I feel sorry for people who believe we need a God to be good, any intelligent person knows that what is good from bad. If you have to be good because some god told you to, then you need to take a good look at yourself, but then if people need a man in the sky looking down at them and judging everything they do, then these probably need a god, who knows what they would do if they didn't have their god. Its sad that there are people like that, but that's life I suppose.

Without God, how does one achieve goodness? Every good thing comes from God. If not, then from where?

 

[Sunstone]

Without God, how does one achieve goodness? Every good thing comes from God. If not, then from where?

Good things come from nature, other people, oneself. No god needed.

 

[Cephus]

Without God, how does one achieve goodness? Every good thing comes from God. If not, then from where?

Since you can't show God even exists, you're just flogging your imaginary friend and making claims that you cannot demonstrate. Good comes from us. Where else can you prove it comes from?

 

[Ouroboros]

The problem is, we have no way of knowing for sure what those teachings are. I think it is unreasonable for God to demand we believe things that are so easily debated. Now, the spirit of Jesus' teachings ... all good in the neighborhood.

Also, considering the golden rule. Why would that be a rule made by God? It's a reasonable rule. It's a code that makes sense (in general). So is God's commands governed by logic and reason? Then what is God good for? Why can't we just reason our way to moral codes if--like the golden rule--are based on human reasoning? (Also, the golden rule exists in other cultures and religions, so it's not even unique to religion or to Christianity.)

And some more thoughts, see what you think.

Rules that come from God directly would have to be rules that we can't reason our way to in the first place (i.e. irrational, unreasonable), and secondly, they would have to be clearly stated to everyone, without human intermediators (like prophets) to avoid confusion and human bias, i.e. each and everyone of us would have to have a visitation of an angel or God himself to tell us those irrational rules.

 

[Ouroboros]

Good things come from nature, other people, oneself. No god needed.

Also, each one of us is responsible to our future selves. 10 years from now, I will have regrets or not for what I did today. I will create today the hell or heaven I will live in tomorrow. I'll be the worst judge of my own sins.

 

[Kirran]

Without God, how does one achieve goodness? Every good thing comes from God. If not, then from where?

Goodness isn't some absolute thing anyway, so you're just saying that certain things which you like come from God, which other people might not like.

 

[psychoslice]

Without God, how does one achieve goodness? Every good thing comes from God. If not, then from where?

Good things come from our heart, not God, God is from the weak minded, the intelligent one simply knows what is right and wrong, so don't tell me about god being all perfect, because he isn't.

 

[Kirran]

Good things come from our heart, not God, God is from the weak minded, the intelligent one simply knows what is right and wrong, so don't tell me about god being all perfect, because he isn't.

God's just a word. If I call existence God, then everything comes from God.

 

[psychoslice]

God's just a word. If I call existence God, then everything comes from God.

Yes, so why even say god, its useless.

 

[Kirran]

Yes, so why even say god, its useless.

Why say any word for anything?

 

[Cephus]

Why say any word for anything?

Because we need words for communication, but if we already have a perfectly serviceable word for reality, why use a different one like God? Just say reality.

 

[Kirran]

Because we need words for communication, but if we already have a perfectly serviceable word for reality, why use a different one like God? Just say reality.

But using the word God adds a predilection for reverence.

 

[Cephus]

But using the word God adds a predilection for reverence.

Why would reality deserve any reverence?

 

[Kirran]

Why would reality deserve any reverence?

Doesn't deserve it. I choose to give it.

 

[Ouroboros]

Doesn't deserve it. I choose to give it.

I totally understand you.

It's kind'a like calling "the place I live in" home. It's just a place. It's just a house. It's just reality. It's just the universe. But it is home, which has a connotation of something more than "just is". Calling reality, universe, totality of all existence, God, is to give it a little bit more poetic and emotional connotation. Or it's like calling my wife "honey" (even though she wasn't produced in a beehive). It's not the definition of the word that's important here, but the underlying meaning of feeling towards it that it relates to. So call the universe, reality, existence, all that is, call it God. I totally understand you.

 

[Kirran]

I totally understand you.

It's kind'a like calling "the place I live in" home. It's just a place. It's just a house. It's just reality. It's just the universe. But it is home, which has a connotation of something more than "just is". Calling reality, universe, totality of all existence, God, is to give it a little bit more poetic and emotional connotation. Or it's like calling my wife "honey" (even though she wasn't produced in a beehive). It's not the definition of the word that's important here, but the underlying meaning of feeling towards it that it relates to. So call the universe, reality, existence, all that is, call it God. I totally understand you.

Thankyou, this was just a lovely message. It really captures how I feel about it.

To be honest, I'm not using the term God as much as I used to. I'll still use it when asked explicitly for my views on God, or when talking to people of Christian and Muslim backgrounds, but I'm coming to use the term Self, or existence, more commonly among the irreligious, or Hindu terms like Shiva and Brahman. But it's all just about different feelings for it