The Actual Problem With Gay Marriages?

[sojourner]

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. "​

King James Version​

But even that says nothing about homosexuality. It says something about some form of same sex activity, but, as we all know, same sex activity need not be homosexual activity. I’m not gay, and I could be forced into same sex activity. That wouldn’t make the activity homosexual.

Further, we all know that there was no ancient Hebrew term for “homosexual.”. AND we all know that homosexuality was unknown as an orientation in that place and time.

what activity are they talking about? Rape? Pederasty? Or consensual, loving relationships? We just don’t know and we can’t assume.

 

[sojourner]

What made it worse, at least for me, is that I replied to sojourner the actual verse without realizing I screwed up the address the first time.

We’ll blame it on your advancing age...

 

[McBell]

We’ll blame it on your advancing age...

Thanks.
I think.
Or perhaps I am only thinking I think.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I should point out that I used to oppose gay marriage. But then I am old

Seriously I did come from a much more homophobic culture than exists today. And it does affect one at a subconscious level. My moment when I finally saw why I was wrong when I realized that I and others on the anti-side opposed the perceived promiscuity of gay men. But at the same time we were opposing the one tool that most effectively lowers promiscuity. Being in a community approved monogamous relationship is the strongest tool against promiscuity and that was being denied to gay people. When I saw the hypocrisy of myself and others I quickly changed my mind.

One cannot complain about how gays are so promiscuous (and I swear that is not the case today, being able to be open in their love alone has eliminated the need to sexually satisfy oneself in rare safe havens) and at the same time oppose gay marriage with being a massive hypocrite. The one thing that I do not want to be known for is being a hypocrite. Which is why I try to atone for my earlier beliefs.

 

[ecco]

Deuteronomy 22:22

Deuteronomy ("repetition of the Law") serves as a reminder to God's people about His covenant. The book is a "pause" before Joshua's conquest begins and a reminder of what God required.​

Why would anyone, in 2020, give a rat's behind what some straight-laced, misogynistic old men wrote 3000 years ago to "God's people".

ETA To address the corrections to OT Chapters.

Leviticus receives its name from the Septuagint (the pre-Christian Greek translation of the Old Testament) and means "concerning the Levites" (the priests of Israel). It serves as a manual of regulations enabling the holy King to set up his earthly throne among the people of his kingdom. It explains how they are to be his holy people and to worship him in a holy manner.​

Why would anyone, in 2020, give a rat's behind what some straight-laced, misogynistic old men wrote 3000 years ago to a holy King of his holy people.


Quote sources:
Books of the Bible List Order - Complete New and Old Testament

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But even that says nothing about homosexuality. It says something about some form of same sex activity, but, as we all know, same sex activity need not be homosexual activity. I’m not gay, and I could be forced into same sex activity. That wouldn’t make the activity homosexual.

Further, we all know that there was no ancient Hebrew term for “homosexual.”. AND we all know that homosexuality was unknown as an orientation in that place and time.

what activity are they talking about? Rape? Pederasty? Or consensual, loving relationships? We just don’t know and we can’t assume.

If you have gay sex, you may not be gay but you did have gay sex. Homosexual activities, meaning same sex activities, meaning two people of the same sex having sex together. Of course our modern concepts of hetero/homosexual are new, as is sexual orientation, but we know sexual attractions and homosexuality--in thought, preference, and acts--has always existed. It just didn't have a name yet, much like opposite sex activities amd attractions disnt have a name then.

 

[sojourner]

If you have gay sex, you may not be gay but you did have gay sex. Homosexual activities, meaning same sex activities, meaning two people of the same sex having sex together. Of course our modern concepts of hetero/homosexual are new, as is sexual orientation, but we know sexual attractions and homosexuality--in thought, preference, and acts--has always existed. It just didn't have a name yet, much like opposite sex activities amd attractions disnt have a name then.

If I’m not homosexual, I didn’t have homosexual sex. I’m not attracted, I’m not wired that way. There’s a difference between same-sex activity and homosexual orientation, and it’s an important difference. We need to be very clear about what terms mean. The Bible condemns some form of same-sex activity, but does not condemn homosexuality. Why? Because for the biblical writers, there was no such thing as sexual orientation. That’s an anthropological fact. It just wasn’t remotely on their radar. So, for them, any same-sex activity was “wrong,” because it meant “going against nature. But we understand sexuality differently. Therefore, it’s wrong for us to take an ancient injunction with one meaning and apply it to another meaning. Homosexual sex is sex between two people of the same gender who are attracted to each other and who have a homosexual orientation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Homosexual sex is sex between two people of the same gender who are attracted to each other and who have a homosexual orientation.

No. That's not how it works. Such as, it's not unusual for someone who identified as heterosexual to have homosexual sex. Or, same-sex sex. Gay sex. It's what it is. Orientation doesn't change that. People are curious, they experiment. It doesn't necessarily make them, but it does mean they had gay sex.
And, yes, it is a fact they didn't have a concept of homosexuality. But they were still aware of preferences, and aware of orientation as a part of sex, not just strictly divided like works eventually happen. It was just sex. And people who aren't curious or attracted to the same sex tend to not have sex with the same sex.

 

[McBell]

And, yes, it is a fact they didn't have a concept of homosexuality. But they were still aware of preferences, and aware of orientation as a part of sex, not just strictly divided like works eventually happen. It was just sex. And people who aren't curious or attracted to the same sex tend to not have sex with the same sex.

Huh?
What is homosexuality?

Homosexuality is romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender. As a sexual orientation, homosexuality is "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions" to people of the same sex.​

Unless you completely disagree with the above definition, they did in fact have a concept of homosexuality.
They called it something else.
They may not have had as thorough an understanding of it.
But they DID have the concept.
In fact, the concept led to death.

 

[ecco]

Orientation doesn't change that. People are curious, they experiment. It doesn't necessarily make them, but it does mean they had gay sex.

Why do you believe that "orientation" is a two-point compass: N - Opposite Sex Only; S - Same Sex Only.

There are people whose "orientation" is NNE and NE and SSW and everything else on a 360 degree compass.

 

[ecco]

Whatever happened to Samantha Rinne? She's been quite silent for a long time.

 

[Galateasdream]

I have one moral line for partnerships: informed consent.

I think that's the same line as God.

Obviously, I could be wrong, and that'll be up to me and God to sort out.

I don't think the state should really get involved in the marriage business, though. I'd rather folk just sorted their own relationships out. I don't like that the government can say X is allowed, but Y isn't, or X has benefits, Y doesn't, when it comes to how people organise their own relationships.

So I celebrate gay marriage. And whatever else makes people happy and doesn't directly hurt others.

 

[sojourner]

And, yes, it is a fact they didn't have a concept of homosexuality. But they were still aware of preferences, and aware of orientation as a part of sex

And people who aren't curious or attracted to the same sex tend to not have sex with the same sex.

Did they? That's patently against what I have studied about that culture.

Unless they're coerced.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Did they? That's patently against what I have studied about that culture.

Then why a law against law homosexuality?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why do you believe that "orientation" is a two-point compass: N - Opposite Sex Only; S - Same Sex Only.

Im not. How are peiple having a hard time accepting gay sex is gay sex?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Huh?
What is homosexuality?

Homosexuality is romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual behavior between members of the same sex or gender. As a sexual orientation, homosexuality is "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions" to people of the same sex.​

Unless you completely disagree with the above definition, they did in fact have a concept of homosexuality.
They called it something else.
They may not have had as thorough an understanding of it.
But they DID have the concept.
In fact, the concept led to death.

Im not disagreeing with that definition. In disagreeing that gay sex is somehow not gay sex if the participant(s) is not gay. It's still homosexual/gay sex even if one or more involved don't identify as such.

 

[Galateasdream]

It might resolve some of the definitional difficulties happening here if people distinguished between 'same genital sex' (SGS) and 'gay sex'.

Just throwing that out there if it helps

 

[McBell]

Im not disagreeing with that definition. In disagreeing that gay sex is somehow not gay sex if the participant(s) is not gay. It's still homosexual/gay sex even if one or more involved don't identify as such.

Ah.
I think I see where I misunderstood your post.

 

[columbus]

Why do you believe that "orientation" is a two-point compass: N - Opposite Sex Only; S - Same Sex Only.

There are people whose "orientation" is NNE and NE and SSW and everything else on a 360 degree compass.

You and @Shadow Wolf appear to be talking about two different things.
Orientation is one thing, an attraction to some characteristics of other people. There is a large and fluid range of orientation.

Any given sex act is a lot more concrete. Two guys having sex are having homosex. They may not really have the slightest interest in homosex, but they're in prison or something and don't have another outlet. It's still homosex, even if neither would even consider homosex under normal circumstances.
Tom

ETA ~Oh I see my post is a little late~

 

[sojourner]

Then why a law against law homosexuality?

The law isn't against homosexuality. The law isn't a moral injunction. It's a cultural injunction. In that culture, honor and shame were sexually embodied. The male embodied honor and the female embodied shame. Why do you think that Muslim women have to be covered in some sects? For an honorable man to "bend over and take it like a female" is to act like a woman -- to act shamefully. Additionally, for an honorable man to treat an equally honorable man as a subordinate (subjugating him through a sex act) is, likewise, to dump one's honor in favor of a shameful act. The law has little to do with the sex and has everything to do with how the participants embody honor or shame.