The 7th Trumpet

[Eyes to See]

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[Brickjectivity]

Hi, just want to give you a heads up about the debate section and your long posts here. Staff don't always understand the content of your post, so try to keep in mind where you are placing your post, the length and whom you are addressing with it. I can see that you are writing this and not copy pasting it, and its a goodly amount of writing. Its likely to be moderated, because its very long and starting in a debate section.

In a debate section you should keep your opening post short, state your assumptions and try to make the debate productive and not completely open to all comers. Currently your debate is open to people of all religions, backgrounds, points of view about Revelation.

In a debate section people are allowed to say "I think you are wrong because of x." This is only permitted in areas marked 'Debate'. In all other areas people are only able to add their own opinions and may not remark about yours. That rule is how moderators distinguish between discussion and debate. It helps make moderation simpler. Having most areas as no-debate areas makes conversations very civil even between people with completely different ideas of how to interpret Revelation and other topics. I suggest this would be a better way to discuss with a wide variety of Christians and non-Christians, such as you are attempting in this thread. You can help staff to help you get a productive conversation going if you consider the above. There can be very unproductive conversations, and there can be very good ones.

This necessity of putting posts in particular sections arises out of the difficulty of keeping people from angry banter.

Staff don't always understand the content of an argument and need simple rules about what is permitted in a debate versus a discussion. We have many religions here, and we don't always grasp all of the conversations which go on. It can be tricky to determine when someone is purposely trolling or misrepresenting a religion. Your knowledge is nuanced and involves study, and staff may not grasp what is being discussed yet will be required to moderate it sometimes.

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Another thing is that very long posts are not conversational enough. We value conversation over publishing, and we're wary of long posts which could be copied/pasted from other sites causing copyright concerns. I think these two posts might work in the Christian Dir area, but they are likely to come across as preaching outside of the Dir or possibly be considered spammy or a copyright concern.

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If you just want to express your ideas and discuss (without people telling you that you are wrong) you are better off not using a generic debate area on RF and instead using an area not marked debate or else putting your challenge into the Same Faith Debates section or One on One Debates which comes under special rules.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This discussion is going to focus on the time period and events between the 6th and 7th trumpet blast and the 7th trumpet blast itself.

Is this is in the millennial reign school of thought, future historic, etc?

Imagine, 6 trumpets are now blaring in the air by 6 of the 7 angels. After the events transpire at the blowing of the 6th trumpet a wonderful and fear-inspiring sight! What is it?

An angel descends from heaven so large that he plants one foot on the earth and one on the sea and his head is crowned with the clouds in the sky. His face is as bright as the sun and his legs like pillars of fire. This angel cries out and the cry is as of the roar of a lion.

As the angel cries out the 7 thunders from heaven speak. And John is about to write the words spoken. But he is told to seal them up and not to write them down. Revelation 10:1-4.

Stop for a second. We are going to travel back in time now around 500 years into the past. Now we are with Daniel in exile in Babylon. Near the end of his life he also is given a special prophecy. In Daniel 10 he relates how an angel appeared to him to give him this prophecy. The content of the prophecy are found in Daniel 11, and 12. We are going to focus in on Daniel 12, the last part of the prophecy.

Referring to the last horn, or world power that would rise up after the 10 horns in the prophecy, a ruler in the realm of the United States he will harass the "holy ones" for 3 1/2 times. But notice, "the court sat." What is this court?

This court is the arrival of Jesus Christ in heavenly kingdom power.

So the great tribulation that is now ahead of us for mankind in which the world's rulers will turn upon and destroy false religion, all the religions of the earth will last 3 1/2 years. At the 1,260 days those days are cut short on behalf of the chosen, or holy ones (also known as the saints):

Since people can be deceived, you should also be concerned that you can be deceived, too. If you aren't then why should anyone else be? Why would you be favored with having true religion while other people get stuck with false religion? Its true that people disagree, but its not that bad if they disagree. They can still be friends.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is around the year 96 C. E. John in exile on the island of Patmos is given a revelation by God.

Revelation chapters 8, 9 and 11:15 tell us of 7 trumpet blasts. Seven angels blow seven trumpets. Each trumpet blast heralding events that bring us to Armageddon. They are not all blown at the same time. Rather one blows his horn then a second blows his and so on until the final trumpet blast.

This discussion is going to focus on the time period and events between the 6th and 7th trumpet blast and the 7th trumpet blast itself.

Imagine, 6 trumpets are now blaring in the air by 6 of the 7 angels. After the events transpire at the blowing of the 6th trumpet a wonderful and fear-inspiring sight! What is it?

An angel descends from heaven so large that he plants one foot on the earth and one on the sea and his head is crowned with the clouds in the sky. His face is as bright as the sun and his legs like pillars of fire. This angel cries out and the cry is as of the roar of a lion.

As the angel cries out the 7 thunders from heaven speak. And John is about to write the words spoken. But he is told to seal them up and not to write them down. Revelation 10:1-4.

Notice what now transpires:

"The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven,  and he swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it."-Revelation 10:5, 6.

Stop for a second. We are going to travel back in time now around 500 years into the past. Now we are with Daniel in exile in Babylon. Near the end of his life he also is given a special prophecy. In Daniel 10 he relates how an angel appeared to him to give him this prophecy. The content of the prophecy are found in Daniel 11, and 12. We are going to focus in on Daniel 12, the last part of the prophecy.

Notice, there on the bank of the Tigris there are two angels on each side of the bank and a third hoovering over the water. They speak to each other:

"Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the stream and one on the other bank of the stream.  Then one said to the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?”  Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”-Daniel 12:5-7.

We are going to focus in on a couple of things here.

In Revelation we are told:

"The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven,  and he swore by the One who lives forever and ever."

In Daniel:

"He raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever."(12:7)

Revelation 10:7 continues:

"But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret that God declared as good news to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”

In Daniel 12:7 we are told 3 1/2 times will pass, the holy ones will be dashed to pieces then the last part says:

"All these things will come to their finish."(Daniel 12:7)

So in the days the 7th angel is about to blow is trumpet the sacred secret and all that is in it will be brought to a finish! What is going to happen?

Daniel is given 3 time periods. We already saw one. A time, times, and half a time, that is 3 1/2 times. These are 3 1/2 years according to the Jewish calendar. They have 30 days each, so each year, or time is 360 days. Half a time, or year is 180 days. So the total of the first time period is 1,260 days.

Two other time periods are mentioned at the end of Daniel 12:

"And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days.
'Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!'"-Daniel 12:11, 12.

The 3 time periods then are 1,260 days, 1,290 days, and 1,335 days.

We know that during the 1,260 days the holy ones are dashed to pieces. Notice what another prophecy in Daniel says regarding this:

"He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."-Daniel 7:25, 26.

Referring to the last horn, or world power that would rise up after the 10 horns in the prophecy, a ruler in the realm of the United States he will harass the "holy ones" for 3 1/2 times. But notice, "the court sat." What is this court?

This court is the arrival of Jesus Christ in heavenly kingdom power. We will go into this further a little later on as this sacred secret is brought to its completion. But as Jesus arrives to judge mankind it says "they took away his rulership," that is the holy ones took away the rulership of the ruler that oppresses them for the 3 1/2 times.

Who are the "holy ones," and how are they involved in taking away the oppressive rulership?

To go a little further into detail about this time period and this ruler if you look a little further, into Daniel 8 we are given a little more information regarding this:

"And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up. His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."-Daniel 8:23-25.

Here we are shown that this ruler at the "final part" of the kingdom will bring to ruin the people made up of the holy ones. And at a time people think they are in security he will bring many to ruin just as the prophecy foretells:

"Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape."-1 Thessalonians 5:3.

But notice that he will not be broken by human hands. He will fight against God at the battle of Armageddon and will be broken without human hands.

Daniel 12 tells us that that time period in the near future is going to be a time of great distress:

"And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time."-Daniel 12:1.

This "time of distress is the same Jesus referred to when he talked about a "great tribulation" that will befall mankind at the end of the last days:

"For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.  In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."-Matthew 24:21, 22.



This great tribulation will be so great that if it wasn't cut short the chosen ones would all be cut off. The "chosen ones" are the "holy ones" that are attacked in Daniel 7, 8, 12. So what is going to happen next?

All of this occurs right before the 7th trumpet blast. But during the last trumpet incredible things are going to transpire!

Paul speaking to the anointed Christian congregation, or the "holy ones" as they are called in Daniel 7, 8, and 12 says:

"We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,  in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed."-1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

So the great tribulation that is now ahead of us for mankind in which the world's rulers will turn upon and destroy false religion, all the religions of the earth will last 3 1/2 years. At the 1,260 days those days are cut short on behalf of the chosen, or holy ones (also known as the saints):

"In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."-Matthew 24:22.

A time period of 30 days will pass. At the 1,290th day Jesus will arrive on the clouds of heaven with supernatural signs and portents in the heaven heralding his return:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."-Matthew 24:29, 30.

At Jesus return, there will be visible supernatural portents that no one alive will be able to deny. They will have just gone through the great tribulation, the worst time in human history. Religion will be no more. Jesus will reveal himself in heaven. And what does he do? Listen!:

"And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."-Matthew 24:31.

During the last trumpet at this arrival he will sound the trumpet and send his angels and they will collect his chosen, the anointed, the holy ones, and they will be raised to heavenly spirit life with Jesus as kings and rulers with Christ.

Just as we are told in another scripture:

"Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air."-1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

Those of the called and chosen who have been sleeping in death will be called first, and then those of us remaining alive on earth of the 144,000 will be called to heaven with Jesus.

Then will be fulfilled the words in Daniel 12:3:

“And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever."-Daniel 12:3.

Jesus also eluded to this prophecy when he said:

"At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."-Matthew 13:43.

What's the overall point?

 

[CG Didymus]

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Is the OP being edited down? There's nothing here right now. But the 7th blast and the Three Woes are of interest to me, because of the Baha'i believing the Three Woes are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. With one Baha'i saying that the angel with the 7th trumpet is Baha'u'llah. So what interpretations do Christians have of this part of Revelation?