That bad girl, Lilith

[Maureen]

Bad Lilith. Refused to stay two steps behind her man. Refused to be on the bottom. Wanted to be equal to Adam. Or so I heard.

The bible doesn't say much about her. It must have been deleted during the transcribe process by the men who thought woman should know her place. Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Which is one of the many reasons why I take the Bible with a grain of salt.

Has anyone ever played the game where there is a line of people and the first person says The Sky Is Blue but by the time it gets to the end of the line, the words are not The Sky Is Blue but instead is John Boinked Jill At The Top Of The Hill or some such wacko sentence.

The bible has been transcribed by too many men (I stress the word men), who had others in higher power that had agendas, so they took some passages out to suit their own during those particular times and did as they were told. Some passages never made it into what is now known as The Word Of God. And some complete gospels have been left out as well. After all, it would not suit to have the Gospels of Mary. She did not belong in the parlor with the men while they had their brandy, nor was she to bother her pretty little head over men talk. She was regulated to the other parlor, with her crochet or knitting needles with the other women folk.

So, back to Lilith. Eve was not first woman. Lilith was. And the bible is very silent about her, isn't it? I guess she wanted to be in the parlor with the brandy and "men talk".

 

[Gjallarhorn]

...I'm struggling to find a response...

A fictional character is being persecuted by the writers of said fictional character...

 

[Erebus]

Hmmm Lilith. Her character is possibly even more complicated than that of Satan.

She certainly is pre-biblical. Whether she was ever in the Bible explicitly and was removed or whether her role as Adam's wife was a later romantic invention is incredibly difficult to discern.
Her history is very difficult to find any clean cut notions of who/what she was.

As an archetype though I understand her to be a powerful female. She's strong, sexy, independent and intelligent. It's hard not to like her whether she enthrals you as a man or inspires you as a woman.

 

[fallingblood]

Lilith nor Eve were the first woman. Neither one existed. Lilith is even less credible than Eve, and that really is getting pretty low.

Lilith wasn't deleted out of the Bible. She never was in there. She was a character invented later on in order to try to explain why there was a need to create woman twice (as in, two creation stories in Genesis).

 

[no-body]

The most intriguing part of the Lilith legend is that she supposedly knew God's hidden name and thus had influence over him.

 

[Tarheeler]

The Bible doesn't say much about her because she isn't in there. While she is most likely based on much older stories, she wasn't associated with Judaism or Christianity until much later.

Lilith (Hebrew: לילית‎; lilit, or lilith) is a character in Jewish mythology, found earliest in the Babylonian Talmud (completed between 500 and 700 AD/CE), who is generally thought to be related to a class of female demons Līlīṯu in Mesopotamian texts. However, Lowell K. Handy (1997) notes, "Very little information has been found relating to the Akkadian and Babylonian view of these demons. Two sources of information previously used to define Lilith are both suspect."[1] The two problematic sources are the Gilgamesh appendix and the Arslan Tash amulets, which are discussed below.[2]
In Jewish folklore, from the 8th–10th Century Alphabet of Ben Sira onwards Lilith becomes Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. This contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs. The legend was greatly developed during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar and Jewish mysticism.[3] In the 13th Century writings of Rabbi Isaac ben Jacob Alfasi ha-Cohen, for example, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael.[4] The resulting Lilith legend is still commonly used as source material in modern Western culture, literature, occultism, fantasy, and horror.

Lilith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lilith is a character who appears in passing in the Talmud and in rabbinical folklore. She is a figure of evil, a female demon who seduces men and threatens babies and women in childbirth. She is described as having long hair and wings (Erub. 100b; Nid. 24b). It is said that she seizes men who sleep in a house alone, like a succubus (Shab. 151b). She is also mentioned in midrashim and kabbalistic works, in which she is considered to be the mother of demons. Her name probably comes from the Hebrew word for night (laila). She is similar to and probably based on a pagan demon named Lulu or Lilu that appears in Gilgamesh and other Sumerian and Babylonian folklore.

In recent years, some women have tried to reinvent Lilith, turning her into a role model for women who do not accept male domination or a rival goddess to the traditions that they think are too male-biased. For example, a number of female musical artists participated a concert tour called "Lilith Fair" a few years ago, and the name "Lilith" was clearly chosen to represent female empowerment.

This revisionist view of Lilith is based primarily on a work called the Alphabet of Ben Sira, which portrays Lilith as Adam's first wife who was rejected because she wanted to be on top during sexual intercourse. Lilith was replaced with Eve, a more submissive second wife. The complete story is presented here. Many modern commentators describe this as part of the Talmud or midrash, or at least a traditional Jewish source, and claim that this story reflects the traditional rabbinical understanding of the roles of men and women. Feminists reject the negative characterization of Lilith's actions in this story. They claim Lilith was a hero who was demonized by male-chauvinist rabbis who did not want women to have any sexual power.

Judaism 101: The Role of Women

and...

The Alphabet of Jesus ben Sirach (Alphabetum Siracidis, Othijoth ben Sira) is an anonymous medieval text attributed to Jesus ben Sirach, the author of the Wisdom of Sirach. It is dated to anywhere between A.D. 700 and 1000. It is a compilation of two lists of proverbs, 22 in Aramaic and 22 in Hebrew, both arranged as alphabetic acrostics. Each proverb is followed by an Haggadic commentary. The work has been characterized as satirical, and it contains references to masturbation, incest and flatulence.

....The text is best known because of its reference to Lilith, and it is the fifth of Ben Sira's responses to King Nebuchadnezzar.

Alphabet of Sirach - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[NeedingGnosisNow]

Lilith was created as Adams equal but she ran off, got turned into a demon,birthed 100 more demons and ate human babies. she would also rape men if they slept alone in a dwelling. she is no role model for women!

 

[Maureen]

lol. Some of you are missing the point.

The Sky Is Blue.

Lilith was not in the bible, why? Someone wrote the bible and left her out maybe? Or she didn't exist at all? Oh. Wait. There were two women in the garden of eden supposedly. Eden is in the bible. So is the ark. But Mary Magdelene was a whore too. Supposedly. Then again, maybe she was Jesus' love interest. After all he was a man, was he not? Why would he not feel emotion, ie love? Oops. Wait. That would not go over so well back in the day, would it? They made her a whore.
And Lilith supposedly evil.

See the conflict just with discussing it? Coulda woulda shoulda, maybe, if, perhaps.
Which is why I take everything written in the bible with a huge grain of salt. Huge.

 

[Tarheeler]

lol. Some of you are missing the point.

The Sky Is Blue.

Lilith was not in the bible, why? Someone wrote the bible and left her out maybe? Or she didn't exist at all? Oh. Wait. There were two women in the garden of eden supposedly. Eden is in the bible. So is the ark. But Mary Magdelene was a whore too. Supposedly. Then again, maybe she was Jesus' love interest. After all he was a man, was he not? Why would he not feel emotion, ie love? Oops. Wait. That would not go over so well back in the day, would it? They made her a whore.
And Lilith supposedly evil.

See the conflict just with discussing it? Coulda woulda shoulda, maybe, if, perhaps.
Which is why I take everything written in the bible with a huge grain of salt. Huge.

There aren't two women in the Bible; there are two separate creation stories. If you hold that there are two women, then there must also be two men, two worlds, two universes, two Edens......

We'll probably never know why the editor chose to leave both accounts, but he did.

You can read into it whatever you like, people have been doing it from the beginning. But it doesn't make it true.

Was the Bible written at a time when men were the dominate sex in society? Sure.
Were women often delegated to subservient roles both in the Bible and in society? Yep.
Does that prove a conspiracy spanning thousands of years? No.

 

[Maureen]

There aren't two women in the Bible; there are two separate creation stories. If you hold that there are two women, then there must also be two men, two worlds, two universes, two Edens......

We'll probably never know why the editor chose to leave both accounts, but he did.

You can read into it whatever you like, people have been doing it from the beginning. But it doesn't make it true.

Was the Bible written at a time when men were the dominate sex in society? Sure.
Were women often delegated to subservient roles both in the Bible and in society? Yep.
Does that prove a conspiracy spanning thousands of years? No.

Relax. It's just a discussion.

 

[Tarheeler]

Relax. It's just a discussion.

I know, I was discussing it.

 

[fallingblood]

lol. Some of you are missing the point.

The Sky Is Blue.

Lilith was not in the bible, why? Someone wrote the bible and left her out maybe? Or she didn't exist at all? Oh. Wait. There were two women in the garden of eden supposedly. Eden is in the bible. So is the ark. But Mary Magdelene was a whore too. Supposedly. Then again, maybe she was Jesus' love interest. After all he was a man, was he not? Why would he not feel emotion, ie love? Oops. Wait. That would not go over so well back in the day, would it? They made her a whore.
And Lilith supposedly evil.

See the conflict just with discussing it? Coulda woulda shoulda, maybe, if, perhaps.
Which is why I take everything written in the bible with a huge grain of salt. Huge.

I don't think we are missing the point. We just don't think your point is valid. Why is Lilith not in the Bible? Because she was a character invented later on in order to explain one aspect of there being two creation stories. Nothing more.

Mary Magdalene is never said to be a whore in the Bible. That is something that was confused much later on, and the official stance of the Church is that she is not a whore. What made her a whore is a misunderstanding, much like the misunderstanding you are presenting in this thread.

I agree, one should take the Bible with a grain of salt. However, misunderstanding the Bible is a different thing.

 

[Father Heathen]

The most intriguing part of the Lilith legend is that she supposedly knew God's hidden name and thus had influence over him.

Wait, so God is like Rumpelstiltskin? Abrahamic mythology just keeps getting wackier.

 

[Maureen]

Maybe i should have put this in conspiracy theories.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Bad Lilith. Refused to stay two steps behind her man. Refused to be on the bottom. Wanted to be equal to Adam. Or so I heard.

The bible doesn't say much about her. It must have been deleted during the transcribe process by the men who thought woman should know her place. Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Which is one of the many reasons why I take the Bible with a grain of salt.


................
So, back to Lilith. Eve was not first woman. Lilith was. And the bible is very silent about her, isn't it? I guess she wanted to be in the parlor with the brandy and "men talk".

Lilith is folklore.

But hey, if you believe she was in the bible, cool. Watch out though, she will eat your baby:faint:

 

[JacobEzra.]

But Mary Magdelene was a whore too. Supposedly. Then again, maybe she was Jesus' love interest. After all he was a man, was he not? Why would he not feel emotion, ie love? Oops. Wait. That would not go over so well back in the day, would it? They made her a whore.
And Lilith supposedly evil.

.

A repentant whore lol, big differences.

And you saying the bible demonizes women is crazy. Especially since a women had a great responsibility, that is, to bring the word incarnate to flesh through her womb

Man, we men are sooo demonizing of women! lol

 

[Me Myself]

A repentant whore lol, big differences.

And you saying the bible demonizes women is crazy. Especially since a women had a great responsibility, that is, to bring the word incarnate to flesh through her womb

Man, we men are sooo demonizing of women! lol

Just beacause one was holy, doesn´t mean you´ll find...

wait how many holy women you see in the bble and how manyholy men?.... Right, I thought so

 

[Splarnst]

Especially since a women had a great responsibility, that is, to bring the word incarnate to flesh through her womb

In other words, a baby factory. But what does Mary do in Gospels besides that? Nothing. She shows up at certain events, she gets dismissed by Jesus, and she gets taken care of at the end. That's it.

 

[Maureen]

In other words, a baby factory. But what does Mary do in Gospels besides that? Nothing. She shows up at certain events, she gets dismissed by Jesus, and she gets taken care of at the end. That's it.

So the bible says. If you believe it.

 

[Splarnst]

So the bible says. If you believe it.

Whether I believe any of it is irrelevant. I was disputing JacobEzra's point that Mary was a great figure for women in the Bible.