Terror groups vow to attack US targets

[Djamila]

ok, i have a question, cause i'm really not sure. what if Israel just let all the Palestinians move into Israel and become citizens? like the Israeli Arabs now? would that work, and what would objections on both sides be?

The right of return was not honored, either in 1948 or in 1967. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees still live in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and they number, today, in the millions.

Isreal is already desperate to manipulate its demographics to ensure a Jewish majority, this was largely the reason they vacated the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and moved out of the territory - so its Muslim and Christian population wouldn't impact Jewish demographics.

This is why non-Jews in cities like Jerusalem are basically banned from buying homes or passing their existing homes on to their children.

Roughly 80% of Israel's territory, today, was claimed through absentee land confiscation. This meant if the Palestinians were not in their homes - and this included cases as broad as whole towns evicted during the 1948 and 1967 wars, and as narrow as families literally losing their homes while away on vacation - Israel could claim them. That's 80% of Israel's territory, 88% according to the left-wing elements in its government. If they allowed Palestinians to return, they'd be reduced practically to the amount of land they were actually given by the United Nations in 1948.

So that would be the opposition on the Israeli side.

On the Palestinian side there would be no opposition. The right of return is one of the basic, guaranteed human rights they've been pushing for since 1948.

 

[darkpenguin]

personaly i hope isreal prevails!

 

[ayani]

thank you, Djamila. and of course there's no way anyone could make Israel budge on this issue. i remember one cleric / leader suggesting that the state of Israel be dissolved, and just let everyone- Muslim, Jew, Christian- live there in general. everyone would be able to visit holy sites and move about freely. no more bulldozing or suicide bombings going off. i kind of liked that idea. get rid of Israel's weapons, get the Palestinians out of the ghettos, allow people the right to worship and movement and housing.

 

[ayani]

personaly i hope isreal prevails!

ok. but for what reasons? prevails against what, or whom? Israel already has lots of weapons and helicopters and tanks and funds and land. what about the other people in that region? why shouldn't they have housing and food and freedom of movement? is there no way to let everyone have these basic things? is nationalism really more important that human life, on both sides?

 

[darkpenguin]

ok. but for what reasons? prevails against what, or whom? Israel already has lots of weapons and helicopters and tanks and funds and land. what about the other people in that region? why shouldn't they have housing and food and freedom of movement? is there no way to let everyone have these basic things? is nationalism really more important that human life, on both sides?

with what they are doing and hopefully without ousiders influence, who in gods name is america to tell people/countries what to do, oops my mistake they are the world police after all, how silly of me to forget that!

 

[greatcalgarian]

There will never be any agreement on who is more right in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, if you could not find an arguement against Israel or Palestinian go here to find an answer:
[FONT=Verdana, Sans-serif]PRO CON SUMMARY
What are the solutions to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict?[/FONT]

T A B L E <IMG height=0 width=10 src?http: www.israelipalestinianprocon.org space.gif?> O F<IMG height=0 width=10 src?http: www.israelipalestinianprocon.org space.gif?> C O N T E N T S
I. Introduction to the Conflicthttp://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/summary.html#introhttp://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/summary.html#intro VII. [URL="http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/summary.html#refugees"]RefugeesII. Early Conflict VIII. 1967 / Palestinian ResurgenceIII. Zionism (Jewish Nationalism) IX. The Peace ProcessIV. Palestinain Nationalism X. SettlementsV. British Involvement XI. Israeli Wall / FenceVI. Israeli Statehood XII. Jerusalem

[/URL]http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/summary.html

 

[jewscout]

Right of return for palestinians is ridiculous and flies in the face of the 2 state solution. You won't have a jewish state and a palestinian state, you will have 2 palestinian states. Israel will have millions of palestinians who hate and dispise not only the State but also Jews in general. there will be war and anarchy and more killing and death.

It's like Communism. On paper it looks nice. In practice it's a big pile of crap.

 

[jewscout]

Isreal is already desperate to manipulate its demographics to ensure a Jewish majority, this was largely the reason they vacated the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and moved out of the territory - so its Muslim and Christian population wouldn't impact Jewish demographics.

another reason for the pull out from Gaza was that Gaza was a financial and logistical drain on Israel and the influx of weapons to terrorists were costing the lives of innocent israeli citizens.

 

[ayani]

thank you, Djamila. and of course there's no way anyone could make Israel budge on this issue. i remember one cleric / leader suggesting that the state of Israel be dissolved, and just let everyone- Muslim, Jew, Christian- live there in general. everyone would be able to visit holy sites and move about freely. no more bulldozing or suicide bombings going off. i kind of liked that idea. get rid of Israel's weapons, get the Palestinians out of the ghettos, allow people the right to worship and movement and housing.

jewscout what about this ^ idea? does that sound feasible?

 

[jewscout]

jewscout what about this ^ idea? does that sound feasible?

put quite frankly, i would sooner die.

with the dissolving of israel, how do you deal w/ the Jewish Question, which still exists in many places? How do you deal w/ the nearly 70 years of anti-jewish brainwashing in the Palestinian territory as well as the rest of the middle east, where Mein Kampf is a best seller and Protocols of the Elders of Zion is published like it's accurate history? Where do the jews of England and France go with the rising tide of antisemitism? What of the remaining jews in the Arab world who are still victims of hate? The remaining jews of Ethopia who were held ransom by the Ethopian government?

how will this region deal with the continual influx of religious jews who wish to live in the Eretz Yisrael?

How do you deal with a fight that has gone from logisitics to personal over the course of nearly 100 years?

Israel exists for a reason.

people seem to forget that.

 

[ayani]

but Jews were emigrating to what was then called "Palestine" before and during the years of the Holocaust. how would the dissolving of the Israeli state hurt more than help? the issue seems to be not with Jews or Judaism but with the Isareli military's use of violent force. the military is an extension of the nationalist state, and it gets alot of non-involved Jews looking bad and being the target of anti-semitism from those who can not distinguish between the violent tactics of Israel's military and a flesh-and-blood Jewish civilian. wouldn't dismantling the military-state infrastructure help?

 

[jewscout]

but Jews were emigrating to what was then called "Palestine" before and during the years of the Holocaust. how would the dissolving of the Israeli state hurt more than help? the issue seems to be not with Jews or Judaism but with the Isareli military's use of violent force.

on the contrary. the issue is militant terrorism. If Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa Martyrs brigade and others stopped fighting, put away their arms, and wanted genuine salaam this violence would end.

Fighting in this region was going on years before the Israel was established. And for the record:

The Mandate's second decade was even more dismal than the first. While Jewish refugees came to Palestine before 1939, the British White Paper of May, 1939 (four months before the outbreak of World War II) cut off the escape route from Europe. By this document, the British government did several things. First, it limited the right of Jews to purchase land in Palestine to a very small area. Still more grave, in 1939, was the provision limiting Jewish immigration to 15,000 a year for five years, after which there would be a "review" involving an Arab veto, with the clear implication that all Jewish immigration--to the Jewish National Home--would then halt. Thus, at the moment of greatest peril and desperation for European Jewry, did the British cut off to all but a handful the refuge of Mandatory Palestine. Jews could leave the Reich until late in 1941 (and the ports of Romania were open until the end of the war); but from wherever Jews fled, they had to have a place that would take them in. As many as a million Jews, it has been estimated, might have made it safely to Palestine even after the war broke out, if not for the British White Paper. And even before May, 1939, how many Jews, among the tens of thousands who left Palestine in the 1920s and early 1930s, and among the hundreds of thousands who might have come but remained in Europe during that same period, were discouraged from coming, or from staying, by fears for their safety given the Arab attacks and the negligence or indifference or hostility-with a handful of glowing exceptions--of the British authorities in Palestine. Not everyone is a hero, and until the late 1930s it was not clear that the alternative to Palestine was certain persecution and death.

http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2001MAY/may9.htm

if israel were dissolved you would be sentencing millions of jews to death.

who would defend the jews there? America? Syria? Jordan?

gracie, with all do respect, you seem to be working under the belief that once israel is out of the picture everything will be ok for jews...the violence was going on before Israel even existed, as was the rampant hatred of the jews coming to the British Mandate.

 

[Djamila]

^ That's exactly it. And don't you think the fears of those living in this "mandate", ie Palestine, were founded? Did they not lose everything and witness the creation of a state for European immigrants?

 

[jewscout]

^ That's exactly it. And don't you think the fears of those living in this "mandate", ie Palestine, were founded? Did they not lose everything and witness the creation of a state for European immigrants?

that's funny because when you walk the streets of Israel, you see people from all parts of the world.

The jews were willing to accept a large Arab minority in a much smaller jewish state, as set up by the UN partition of 1947. The Arab world wanted no such state to exist next door to them and their leadership called for the slaughter of jews and they came against Israel in mass.

Do you think that the fears of the Jewish settlers there were founded as well?

or were the Arab leaders justified in their calls for mass genocide? Or was that just a big joke they weren't letting us in on?

 

[Djamila]

Of course it was wrong...

But if you drive across town, and start building a home on someone else's lawn - they're going to be angry. They might even kill you.

But that you brought on yourself. If they kill you, maybe it's right - maybe it's not.

But you brought it on yourself. And it is not something you can use to take even more of their lawn.

 

[Hamish]

I believe that both countries Israel and Palestine are represented by governments that were elected by the people. It is about time that other countries stop adding fuel to the fire and give assistance where it is needed most.

 

[Djamila]

I believe that both countries Israel and Palestine are represented by governments that were elected by the people. It is about time that other countries stop adding fuel to the fire and give assistance where it is needed most.

Welcome, by the way. I know a Hamish.

 

[Hamish]

Thank you, it must be difficult to see the middle east in such turmoil, maybe the answer is in the question WHAT IS BEST FOR THE PEOPLE?

 

[ayani]

on the contrary. the issue is militant terrorism. If Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa Martyrs brigade and others stopped fighting, put away their arms, and wanted genuine salaam this violence would end.

and yet such groups, who use violent tactics against unarmed civilians claim that they are relatiating in response to Israeli aggression. and the point remains that these terrorists can not and will not distinguish between the violent actions taken by the Israeli military and individual Jews. so while the existence of the state of Israel may not in itself be creating more danger for Jews, the practices and policies of the Israeli government towards Palestinians makes life dangerous the world over for individual jews and Jewish communities. it's become an international issue and more fire for anti-Semitism.

gracie, with all do respect, you seem to be working under the belief that once israel is out of the picture everything will be ok for jews...the violence was going on before Israel even existed, as was the rampant hatred of the jews coming to the British Mandate.

i think i see what you mean... yes, anti-Semitism was and will be a problem. but my point is that right now, Israel does not seem to be doing alot to improve the world's image of Jews. and again, how many people around the world are now unable or unwilling to mentally and emotionally seperate zionism, Israeli military tactics, and Jews?

 

[!Fluffy!]

Since when do violent, ignorant, brutal, bigoted fundamentalist extremists need an excuse to hate? Anyone who believes Israel can do anything to dissuade the "Death to Israel" extremists from hating them is unbelievably naive.

Mein Kampf is still on the best seller list in most of the Middle East. That tells me everything I need to know, as well as the extremely hateful, violent, bloody, primitive gory propaganda spewing out of the anti-semitic media if you would care to look at it firsthand and judge for yourself, rather than filtering it through the rose colored glasses of the idiotic American MSM.

If Americans and the West in general continues on this path of contrived blindness and ignorance (tarted up as political correctness) the blood of millions of Jews will be on our hands, and Western Europe and America could very well be Door Number Two in the big genocide game these sick barbarians are playing. And they can't wait to get their hands on "nuclear power".

Jihadists who have no compunction about blowing themselves up and setting people on fire certainly wouldn't hesitate to nuke a few million infidels, mutually assured destruction be damned. There is no deterrance with suicidal madmen. Israel is the only window of sanity in their part of the world, and if we withdraw our support it will be to our own shame.