Tao Vs Dharma

[wizanda]

Since the Tao can be ascribed as being the way, and the logic that was there from the beginning of reality, through the Tao all things were made.

We find more or less the same thing with Dharma, that it is the right way, the logic there from the beginning of reality.

Find them more or less the same, other than that Dharma claims to be the right way; with Adharma being its opposite....

Whereas the Tao is the logic; yet seems to be more grounded in being neutral...

Like Dharma, and Adharma are two sides of the Yin and Yang; whereas the Tao is the middle line.

So what are your thoughts on their similarities first, and then their differences?

 

[Kartari]

I wrote a 15 page paper in college on the interplay of Daoism and Buddhism in China during the formative five centuries of Chinese Buddhism. The short answer: the two religions were so mutually receptive to one another that by the 6th century CE, the common Chinese citizen could not discern a difference between Daoist and Buddhist priests: they both performed similar rituals, meditated similarly, the same Chinese term was even used for both Daoist and Buddhist temples. The significant differences which lingered were but a few. For one, Daoism remained a very loose and unaffiliated group of independent religious movements while Buddhism was more organized. And despite the similarities in practice and behavior, their ultimate goals remained different: Buddhists sought nirvana or the cessation of dissatisfaction, while Daoists sought immortality and life extension.

 

[psychoslice]

Both cannot be conceptualized, but only experienced, any form of belief, or idea, is not what it is, so the best thing is to say nothing, and even that is too much.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Mmmmm, perhaps it's only the phrasing, but are you sure both paths speak of a beginning to reality? Implying there also might be an end? The eternal Dharma and the Tao (no difference for me) both have a beginning and an end? Subject to time? Don't think so. Or perhaps you speak of the long-lasting but not eternal nature of maya, the "unreality" apprehended by our senses?

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. while Daoists sought immortality and life extension.

But are the Daoists not considered practical people taking life as it comes?

 

[Kartari]

Hi Aupmanyav,

But are the Daoists not considered practical people taking life as it comes?

My understanding is that Chinese culture more broadly is rather pragmatic. Naturally, Daoism (one of China's native religions) would be pragmatic as well, and we can certainly see that quality in it.

Nonetheless, immortality and life extension have been fundamental goals of Daoists since the inception of their earliest teachings and practices. From classical times, we find evidence of early Daoists using various practices and techniques, herbs and potions, and working with qi (energy) to enhance longevity. With yin and yang in perfect balance, it is believed that immortality is possible, that imbalance is what leads to disease and death.

 

[Kartari]

I should also note another distinction between Daoism and Buddhism. The Dao (the Way) is indeed described as the "source" of all things, as wizanda has noted in the OP. The Dao is thought of as an omnipresent mystery within Daoism. When Buddhists first encountered this concept, they found it odd, as there was no parallel in Buddhism. Though early Chinese Buddhists borrowed terminology from Daoists when translating the sutras into Chinese and used the term dao for dharma, the dharma was not thought of as a source or omnipresent mystery in Buddhism but simply as the way of the Buddha.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks Kartari for your posts. Never really went deep into Dao (probably because of being a Hindu, no discussion about what exists and what does not. No Brahman, Dhammakaya, Tathagatagarbha, Bodhikaya). Now I will check your other posts, could be interesting for me.

 

[Kartari]

I love studying eastern religions in general. The opportunity arose for me to delve more deeply into Chinese and Japanese religions, and I took them. I want to do the same with India one of these days, the birthplace of my favorite eastern religion Buddhism. I've learned a bit already, but would love to really study Hinduism more deeply, as well as Jainism and Sikhism.

Daoism is a really fascinating study. Very simple yet profound. I had always wondered why it bore so much similarity to Buddhism, and then I learned this was because the two religions blended a lot many centuries ago in China. Speaking of pragmatism, one of the ways Daoism influenced Chinese Buddhism was to bring it more down to Earth and make it more pragmatic. Buddhism was more intellectual and nuanced in northern India, but when it encountered and exchanged with Daoism, it took on the idea of naturalness (ziran). The Daoist sage is described as natural, while Buddhism did not say that about Buddhas before. I think we can see the pragmatism in Chinese orders such as the Shaolin, who took up martial arts with simple peasant tools to defend themselves for instance (while Buddhists died out in India in part due to Muslim invaders in the 13th century CE). The Shaolin monks were of the Chan (Meditation) Buddhist school, which in turn made it to Japan where it was mispronounced as Zen.

I could go on... I'll stop myself now. A pleasure.

 

[wizanda]

Never really went deep into Dao

The Tao Te Ching is only 81 poems, takes no time to read; yet years to digest.

Subject to time?

Neither is subject to time, they're both timeless.

are you sure both paths speak of a beginning to reality?

Both speak about being before things were formed, everything was made from them....

Thus to me it is the logic/wisdom that has been used to program this reality.

Implying there also might be an end?

They don't have an end, as logic/wisdom will always exist; even if this reality doesn't.

Or perhaps you speak of the long-lasting but not eternal nature of maya, the "unreality" apprehended by our senses?

Though Maya has been coded with this logic, it also has flaws, and thus will be removed and replaced with a better version; not sure that ultimate logic, can ever be replaced with a better version.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Tao Te Ching is only 81 poems, takes no time to read; yet years to digest.

Poems, as I told you I have difficulty with. I am comfortable with verses like in Gita and other Indian scriptures or 'asha'ar' (Urdu shayari) where the meaning is discerned in two lines. Perhaps some day I will try 'Dao De Jing'. Another problem - if it is only 'the way to live' as in 'Thirukkural', then my interest will be diminished, because I do not want sermons. Let us see.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Neither is subject to time, they're both timeless.
Both speak about being before things were formed, everything was made from them....

Thus to me it is the logic/wisdom that has been used to program this reality.
They don't have an end, as logic/wisdom will always exist; even if this reality doesn't.
Though Maya has been coded with this logic, it also has flaws, and thus will be removed and replaced with a better version; not sure that ultimate logic, can ever be replaced with a better version.

Hi, wizanda,
I may be in over my head here or at least confess to confusion. So, it sounds basically like you're agreeing with me about the eternal timelessness of Reality?

Do not want to take the thread sidewise, either, but I stumble with how the word "logic" fits here. Logic--to me--is a construction based on and informed by the intellect examining thoughts held in the chitta, mind-stuff, (either one's own thoughts or another's), and attempting to discern the All thereby. Intellect is a tool which although a part of the Whole, is incapable of knowing the Whole until what is called the "enlightenment" of that intellect. Dharma, the Tao, the Self, Brahman--Name it what you will--is beyond senses, mind, intellect, ego. On the other hand, I grok the word "wisdom" as jnana (true knowledge). Is the cause of my confusion re your post only one of semantics? Logic and wisdom signify the same concept?

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Poems, as I told you I have difficulty with. I am comfortable with verses like in Gita and other Indian scriptures or 'asha'ar' (Urdu shayari) where the meaning is discerned in two lines. Perhaps some day I will try 'Dao De Jing'. Another problem - if it is only 'the way to live' as in 'Thirukkural', then my interest will be diminished, because I do not want sermons. Let us see.

Aup, a good translation of the Tao is an amazing read, well worth the dip. Think -ayana, not dictums.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am comfortable with verses like in Gita and other Indian scriptures or 'asha'ar' (Urdu shayari) where the meaning is discerned in two lines.

Sassymaa, hidden meanings. One has to search for it. Should I tax my mind (even after being enlightened, tathāgata)?
Never liked cross-words, mind puzzles. Simple questions, simple answers, that is my way.

 

[Unfathomable Tao]

The only thing I would ask the OP is- what is the Tao? I do not say what it is. Laozi was reluctant to say what it is. Good and evil are dualistic and defined to be in opposition. We humans call things that are manifestations of the same universe good and bad. Perhaps we call it so only? Similarly to Buddhists, Taoists like to speak in terms of useful and not useful, rather than good and evil.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Sassymaa, hidden meanings. One has to search for it. Should I tax my mind (even after being enlightened, tathāgata)?

You rogue!
Hey, wait a minute! Yer not even supposed to have a mind anymore! Didn't it dissolve into Cosmic Mind some time back (or so you say )?

Well, be that as it is, since You, Brahman, wrote the Tao muchos años ago, hmmmm, muchos centuries ago, if You don't recall it and You're bored being trapped in Aup's body, You might like to, uhhh, take a dip into that amazing read... and refresh Your memory!! It's wonderful, like all Your Works.

 

[wizanda]

So, it sounds basically like you're agreeing with me about the eternal timelessness of Reality?

Was agreeing that Tao and Dharma are infinite; yet reality as we know it isn't.

what is the Tao?

Though i could never put a single label on the Tao; some names that appear to fit is logical wise simplicity.

Logic and wisdom signify the same concept?

Not always, you could be wise enough to understand; yet completely illogical.

Yet within quantifying what the Tao and Dharma is, these are qualities we could ascribe to them.

Is the cause of my confusion re your post only one of semantics?

Possibly, as the question is meant as a deep one, and not sure any book can give us the answers, only meditating on the topic will help.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Hey, wait a minute! Yer not even supposed to have a mind anymore!

Sassymaa, yes, I am Brahman. I have one foot in Vyavaharika Satya (pragmatic reality) and the other in Parmarthika Satya (abolute reqlity). If I remove my feet from Vyavaharika, the world dissolves, and with it goes all the fun.

 

[Unfathomable Tao]

To be sure we talk about the Tao friend Wizanda, but we have to be careful. Words can brick wall our progress or wall us in. Words are hardly capable of conveying intense feelings, no? The Tao cannot really be put into words. It can be known. It is a mystery.

 

[Sw. Vandana Jyothi]

Was agreeing that Tao and Dharma are infinite; yet reality as we know it isn't.
Though i could never put a single label on the Tao; some names that appear to fit is logical wise simplicity.
Not always, you could be wise enough to understand; yet completely illogical.
Yet within quantifying what the Tao and Dharma is, these are qualities we could ascribe to them.
Possibly, as the question is meant as a deep one, and not sure any book can give us the answers, only meditating on the topic will help.

Tee hee, good luck on quantifying either the Tao or Dharma, Angelic One. No argument at all that it certainly does require meditation to realize all things Tao.

In playing with Aup, I looked up the word 'koan' and was going to tease him with one. And the definition is on point re my "objection" to using logic as a means of attaining enlightenment and therefore, as a definition of Tao. This is my understanding of Truth which is the same for everybody--Hindu, Taoist, Muslim, Christian, et al.

ko·an -ˈkōän/
noun
a paradoxical anecdote or riddle, used in Zen Buddhism to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment.​