Swallowed by Satan

[Quiddity]

A Pew Research Center study of 1,197 LGBT adults released on June 13, 2013, found that 79% of those questioned rated Catholicism as “unfriendly” to LGBT people. Only 4% view our Church as “friendly.” Sadly, I think this has more to do with a false perception of the Church, rather than to what the Church actually teaches. Essentially, the purpose of the Church is relatively simple: “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation.” (CCC #845)

Swallowed by Satan, Joseph Sciambra

Former gay porn star has quite a bit to say about what it was like for him. I've been following his work for months now and he is very active in all matters dealing with LGBT. Take a look...

 

[omnifarious]

A Pew Research Center study of 1,197 LGBT adults released on June 13, 2013, found that 79% of those questioned rated Catholicism as “unfriendly” to LGBT people. Only 4% view our Church as “friendly.” Sadly, I think this has more to do with a false perception of the Church, rather than to what the Church actually teaches.

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. - Leviticus 18:22

"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. - Leviticus 20:13

Which church?

 

[Quiddity]

Which church?

Which Church what?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I know. It's very sad. I view the Church's teachings on LGBT people to be problematic and I have my disagreements with them, but the official teachings aren't as bad as most people think they are. (It wouldn't hurt if they were expressed in a more compassionate and clear way, as well!) That's not to say that some LGBT people haven't had genuine bad experiences with the Church. Surely they have. But I think culture plays a larger part in it. It is officially countercultural to be a faithful Christian who lives a chaste life (no matter the sexual orientation).

 

[Quiddity]

Homophobia exists in Catholicism........no doubt. Unfortunately, it takes some work to muddle through all the hateful things SOME Catholics say versus what the Church actually says.

Truth be told, no matter how much sugar and snowflakes you put on some words, it's not going to be taken well. What is a nice way of telling someone that you don't agree with certain acts the they do? How do you explain such a disagreement?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Truth be told, no matter how much sugar and snowflakes you put on some words, it's not going to be taken well. What is a nice way of telling someone that you don't agree with certain acts the they do? How do you explain such a disagreement?

Honestly, I'm probably the wrong person to ask. Lol.

 

[Quiddity]

Honestly, I'm probably the wrong person to ask. Lol.

Ok....I'm up to hearing out if you are up to it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok....I'm up to hearing out if you are up to it.

I support committed, loving gay relationships. Gay culture certainly does have a lot of problems, though, and I think a lot of those problems are due to it being underground for many decades because of homophobia. So I disagree that gay and lesbian people should always have to remain celibate. I couldn't bring myself to telling some of the many long term gay and lesbian couples that have been together for many decades and take their relationships more seriously than most straight people do that they should split up. I couldn't do that in good conscience.

That's really the one sticking point I have with the Church. It's not only about gay and lesbian relationships but also about transgender people, but I'm a transsexual who is transitioning (female to male).

So this puts me in a rather difficult place.

 

[Quiddity]

I support committed, loving gay relationships. Gay culture certainly does have a lot of problems, though, and I think a lot of those problems are due to it being underground for many decades because of homophobia. So I disagree that gay and lesbian people should always have to remain celibate. I couldn't bring myself to telling some of the many long term gay and lesbian couples that have been together for many decades and take their relationships more seriously than most straight people do that they should split up. I couldn't do that in good conscience.

That's really the one sticking point I have with the Church. It's not only about gay and lesbian relationships but also about transgender people, but I'm a transsexual who is transitioning (female to male).

So this puts me in a rather difficult place.

Yes, it does.

It's a difficult thing to digest and I can't see how it can be meshed with Church teaching. Although there is nothing per say wrong or sinful about two gay men that live together, it does raise a flag in the say way that a male and female moved in together. I'd even argue it's even worse with gay males. Do you disagree that the acts themselves are sinful or is your beef simply with the relationship mechanics?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's a difficult thing to digest and I can't see how it can be meshed with Church teaching.

That's why I said I find the Church teaching on that to be problematic.

Although there is nothing per say wrong or sinful about two gay men that live together, it does raise a flag in the say way that a male and female moved in together. I'd even argue it's even worse with gay males. Do you disagree that the acts themselves are sinful or is your beef simply with the relationship mechanics?

No, I don't agree that all homosexual sex acts are wrong. I can see how anal sex would be sinful, but there are other ways for gay men to be intimate and not all gay men are interested in anal sex in the first place.

 

[Quiddity]

That's why I said I find the Church teaching on that to be problematic.

No, I don't agree that all homosexual sex acts are wrong. I can see how anal sex would be sinful, but there are other ways for gay men to be intimate and not all gay men are interested in anal sex in the first place.

I see.......yeah, it's pretty much a stalemate and I'm sure it's not news to you that the Church isn't going to bend on this.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I see.......yeah, it's pretty much a stalemate and I'm sure it's not news to you that the Church isn't going to bend on this.

Not anytime soon, at least. It's kind of like the whole women priest thing. I don't see that changing anytime soon because most of the people who loudly support that are feminist types who also hold very radical beliefs besides that. So that is shooting themselves in the foot and it so it is understandable why the hierarchy is not interested in listening to them. The Church is very embattled in modern Western culture. It's the same when it comes to many pro-gay people, who are also calling for things that are pretty radical. All I'm saying is that gay and lesbian people are just as capable as having loving, committed relationships as straight people are and the culture with its moral decay is misleading people of all groups. Gay culture is screwed up but so is "straight culture". The culture, period, is a big fat mess that encourages "I'll do what I want" hedonism and nihilism (which I do reject after being immersed in such thinking for awhile; it didn't get me anywhere and made me feel like I was dead).

The Church's dealings with the transgender/transsexual issue has similar yet different problems. The hierarchy's view of trans people has been tainted by right-wing bigots like Paul R. McHugh, who has advised the Church on that subject and has done much harm to us by spreading lies about us much as Paul Cameron has spread lies about gay men in order to dehumanize them and justify bigotry.

I think the hierarchy is a bit afraid to appear as "giving an inch" when it comes to this whole subject because of the whole sordid "culture war" thing, and the Church wants to be seen as a bulwark of "traditional values". I understand all that, but they also need to understand the harm being done.

When you are an LGBT person who has come to an acceptance of yourself as God made you (all the evidence points to that people are born with the gender identity and sexual orientation they have and cannot change it) and are also a practicing Christian, you tend to find yourself in a no-man's land where you aren't accepted by the religious and you're not accepted by the secular LGBT movement. We're kind of off on our own and neither side seems to want to listen to us. So we just wait, hope, pray and shake our heads in sadness as both sides lob rhetorical and legal bombs at each other.

 

[Quiddity]

One thing is clear, we don't see the unfolding of Church teaching the same. Much of this stems from a profound miscomprehension of the development of dogma that has taken place in the history of the Church. Certain things can't change and if just one of these teachings change......it's game over....say good bye to Catholicism. So one has to be careful on what it is they are saying changes in Catholicism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

One thing is clear, we don't see the unfolding of Church teaching the same. Much of this stems from a profound miscomprehension of the development of dogma that has taken place in the history of the Church. Certain things can't change and if just one of these teachings change......it's game over....say good bye to Catholicism. So one has to be careful on what it is they are saying changes in Catholicism.

Dogmas are articles of theological faith, such as the Nicene Creed. I'm looking, but I can't see anywhere that says the Church's teachings on sexual matters fall into the category of dogma. If you can find a source from the Church that declares such matters to be dogma, please let me know. It's a rather nebulous area and theologians aren't sure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/books/review/22STEINFE.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Roman Catholic dogma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this article, it falls under doctrines, which aren't the same as dogma: The Three Ds

This is an interesting article: A Catholic case for same-sex marriage | OnFaith

 

[Quiddity]

Dogmas are articles of theological faith, such as the Nicene Creed. I'm looking, but I can't see anywhere that says the Church's teachings on sexual matters fall into the category of dogma. If you can find a source from the Church that declares such matters to be dogma, please let me know. It's a rather nebulous area and theologians aren't sure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/books/review/22STEINFE.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Roman Catholic dogma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to this article, it falls under doctrines, which aren't the same as dogma: The Three Ds

This is an interesting article: A Catholic case for same-sex marriage | OnFaith

It is nebulous, you're right. The Church normally doesn't define unless it has to. Probably the best place to start is John Henry Newman and the development of doctrine. It won't take you to a clear "this sexual act is wrong and this one is ok"........but it will at least show you authentic developments vs those that are not. Normally, the one's not approved get flushed out anyways.

I'll see what I can find.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is nebulous, you're right. The Church normally doesn't define unless it has to. Probably the best place to start is John Henry Newman and the development of doctrine. It won't take you to a clear "this sexual act is wrong and this one is ok"........but it will at least show you authentic developments vs those that are not. Normally, the one's not approved get flushed out anyways.

I'll see what I can find.

Thanks.

I've always understood that theological issues and social issues where viewed as being on different levels. For example, if I deny the Trinity, Christ's sacrifice and the need for redemption, I'm obviously not a Catholic anymore but that's not necessarily true if I support gay marriage or even women's ordination (well, as long as I'm not a bishop who ordains a woman). Actually, the only social issue I know of being raised to the level of "you agree or you're out" is abortion.

To me, it's about finding out what is essential to the Faith, because I certainly don't want to damage Holy Mother Church. I believe strongly in the Church and I would say that I'm actually a moderate traditionalist.

 

[Quiddity]

Although, I will note that history shows that if the flock or clergy is pushing for the Church to clarify on this or that, you see the issue start to move upward in the ranks. If you don't see it move, chances are that most Catholics are clear about it and it will never make it up through the ranks. It's true that this issue is complex and nebulous but not every part of it is. Living with someone with whom you are attracted to and not married is not a good idea (whether gay or not). Most Catholics are clear on this and chances of such an issue making it up through the ranks is very low. So, although there is homophobia, hate, and just flat out malice toward people with SSA (and LGBTQ), it doesn't necessarily follow that the Church can't uniformly agree with said people minus the hate and malice.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

A Pew Research Center study of 1,197 LGBT adults released on June 13, 2013, found that 79% of those questioned rated Catholicism as “unfriendly” to LGBT people. Only 4% view our Church as “friendly.” Sadly, I think this has more to do with a false perception of the Church, rather than to what the Church actually teaches. Essentially, the purpose of the Church is relatively simple: “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation.” (CCC #845)

Swallowed by Satan, Joseph Sciambra

Former gay porn star has quite a bit to say about what it was like for him. I've been following his work for months now and he is very active in all matters dealing with LGBT. Take a look...

I was Catholic for a good solid week...lol. I was interested in Catholicism aroud age 16 or so...My 2nd-3rd day of attending mass, I was having a conversation with an older gentleman after mass about thinking of converting, the only problem I had at the time was the abuse scandal, and we got to talking about that, and he said "yeah... it's due to the influence of those perverted homosexuals," or something along those lines, and that kind of disheartened me for a while. (I was a closeted bisexual at the time) I only went to mass a couple of more times after that, and eventually stopped going. I really liked the ritual of Catholicism though. (and admittedly still do, even though I'm not really religious.)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Although, I will note that history shows that if the flock or clergy is pushing for the Church to clarify on this or that, you see the issue start to move upward in the ranks. If you don't see it move, chances are that most Catholics are clear about it and it will never make it up through the ranks. It's true that this issue is complex and nebulous but not every part of it is. Living with someone with whom you are attracted to and not married is not a good idea (whether gay or not). Most Catholics are clear on this and chances of such an issue making it up through the ranks is very low.

Yes, of course. I don't encourage adultary or fornication. The real issue for me is gay marriage, if it is at all possible that gay relationships could be hold to the same standards of straight relationships. That's what I'm trying to understand in this whole debate. It doesn't seem to be very clear.

It seems to really come down to the whole reproduction issue. But then infertile straight couples seem to throw a kink into that argument and it seems to fall apart there. At that point, it seems to come down to "well, at least the parts match" as if to gloss over the fact that an infertile straight couple is in the same boat as a gay couple when it comes to reproduction.

So, although there is homophobia, hate, and just flat out malice toward people with SSA (and LGBTQ), it doesn't necessarily follow that the Church can't uniformly agree with said people minus the hate and malice.

Yes, there are ways to state those views politely. But I think we should be careful to use reason in these arguments.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was Catholic for a good solid week...lol. I was interested in Catholicism aroud age 16 or so...My 2nd-3rd day of attending mass, I was having a conversation with an older gentleman after mass about thinking of converting, the only problem I had at the time was the abuse scandal, and we got to talking about that, and he said "yeah... it's due to the influence of those perverted homosexuals," or something along those lines, and that kind of disheartened me for a while. (I was a closeted bisexual at the time) I only went to mass a couple of more times after that, and eventually stopped going. I really liked the ritual of Catholicism though. (and admittedly still do, even though I'm not really religious.)

I'm sorry that happened to you. That's why, if you feel called to something, you shouldn't let flawed humans cause you to doubt it. They are sinners in need of God's grace, too. At the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is God's. Many Saints have had conflicts with the Church. Joan of Arc was branded a heretic and burnt at the stake but then she was rehabilitated by the Church about 25 years after her death. It took about 500 years for them to finally recognize her as a Saint. Tsk tsk.