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Sunni/Shia question/answer
- Thread starter Farah
- Start date
Google is my Friend...
These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Genesis 25:13-16
These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Genesis 25:13-16
According to Shia Muslims they are the Twelve shia Imams, who are:
1. Imam Ali a.s.
And then, the decedents of Imam Alis a.s. and Lady Fatima a.s. ( the daughter of the prophet Muhammad SAAW) who are:
2. Imam Hassan a.s.
3. Imam Hussain a.s.
4. Imam Ali Ibn ul-Hussain (ZainulAbideen) a.s.
5. Imam Mohammed Ibn Ali (Al Baqer) a.s.
6. Imam Jaffer Ibn Mohammed (As Sadiq) a.s.
7. Imam Mousa Ibn Jaffer (Al Kadhim) a.s.
8. Imam Ali Ibn Mousa (Al Ridha) a.s.
9. Imam Mohammed Ibn Ali (Al Jawad) a.s.
10. Imam Ali Ibn Muhammed (Al Hadi) a.s.
11. Imam Hassan Ibn Ali (Al Askari) a.s.
12. Imam Mohammed Ibn Al Hassan (Al Mahdi) May Allah hasten his reappearance to fill the earth with justice after it has been filled with injustice.
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they have many answers,
Many mentioned the first four Caliphs, followed by Umar bin abdul-aziz, and after that they tend to differ...
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Well I don't prefer to be called other than a muslim
I am not really familiar with what some sects believe. I don't take any piece of information about Islam and accept it unless I am provided with the proof. I really don't pay much attention to what each sect or group believes. Believe it or not, I had to google the word wahabi to have a clear understanding about their beliefs.
As for the hadith, I think it doesn't say anything about who are these 12 people. As I remember, the narrator of the hadith only heard the begging of the hadith and the end of it. He didn't hear anything about these 12 leaders. Many scholars try to say and think who are these 12 leaders. Well actually I don't worry about it because I believe that had this information been important, we would have known it.
I didn't do my proper research on the subject. I hope I don't cross the line but I advise you to do the same. Had it been important, the prophet would have emphasized on it.
As for today's concern, we are not having a caliphate hence we don't have a leader. (that is what I think)
Ok, basically you do not know and you dnt want to know! Thanks for the reply! But when you put up a profile of people, shouldn't you know who they are, I mean what their believe is! You might say they are Muslims... But there are so many Muslims with so many different believes .... The difference starting with Tauhid (believe in Allah), how to do pray...
Dnt get me wrong , All Muslims should be united and avoid trouble between each other but one should know about his own believe and which group he belongs or believes in!
By the way , how is it not important ? The prophet said Islam will stays righteous until they rule the islamic world! Either there is somebody or Islam is not righteous brother. Actually it is very important to know!
So either there is someone who rules , maybe not a khalif but if you say there is than we have to find where and who! If you say there isn't than the Hadith is wrong and followed on that the sahee book is not 100% sahee!
I think our religion is like a puzzle , we have to try to conect all the single pieces until it's one smooth picture, if it doesn't conect , than there is a fault in it and we have to keep looking for the right puzzle!
Anyway , sry to bother you!
Dnt get me wrong , All Muslims should be united and avoid trouble between each other but one should know about his own believe and which group he belongs or believes in!
By the way , how is it not important ? The prophet said Islam will stays righteous until they rule the islamic world! Either there is somebody or Islam is not righteous brother. Actually it is very important to know!
So either there is someone who rules , maybe not a khalif but if you say there is than we have to find where and who! If you say there isn't than the Hadith is wrong and followed on that the sahee book is not 100% sahee!
I think our religion is like a puzzle , we have to try to conect all the single pieces until it's one smooth picture, if it doesn't conect , than there is a fault in it and we have to keep looking for the right puzzle!
Anyway , sry to bother you!
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Sabour
Well-Known Member
No sister it isn't a matter of whether I want to know or not. The matter itself is ambiguous. I don't know if I am missing something but here are the hadith
Sahih Bukhari:
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." [1]
Sahih Muslim :
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."[2]
Sunan Abu Dawood :
The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh." [3]
Sunan al-Tirmidhi :
The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh." [4]
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel"" [5]
I think this is all that we know about the subject. All the rest about the subject are interpretations made by scholars and nothing is 100 % true.
Is that right or am I missing something?
farouk
Active Member
Peace to all.
First and foremost let me quote the hadith from Sahih Muslim.
"Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh".
Farah from what i understood you refered to the above hadith.I am a Sunni and will answer you from my understanding of what i understand from the above hadith.
1.The above hadith refers to Caliphs(Rulers) and not Imams.So if Shia's think this hadith refers to their 12 Imams then they are totally misguided.
2.No where in any hadith books will you find our beloved Nabi(SAW) mentioned the names of these 12 Caliphs.Hence for anyone to start naming Caliphs is mere guess work and conjecture.Sunni beliefs is not based on conjecture and hence this is not a major issue so far as our foundational beliefs is concerned.
3.In order to understand this hadith then one has to look at other hadith to see how it all fits in together.Let me give you some other hadith that will shed light on the above hadith.
Yunus ibn Maysurah Al-Jiblani said: "The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said:
"This matter will be in Al-Madina, then in AsSham, then in the Al-Jazirah, then in Iraq, then in Al-Madina, then in Bayt Al-Maqdis (Jerusalem). And when it comes to Bayt al-Maqdis, then it will be in its homeland. And it will never go away from a people and afterwards return to them." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab Al-Fitan)
Abdullah ibn Hawalah Al-Azdi said: "The Messenger of Allah(SAW) placed his hand over my head and said:
"O Ibn Hawalah! When you see that the Khilafah (Caliphate) has settled (has its seat or capital) in the Holy Land (Palestine), then the earthquakes, tribulations and great events will have drawn near. The Hour, on that day, will be closer to the people than my hand is to your head." (Abu Dawud)
Based on Huzaifah, Allah's Messenger (SAW) said, "Prophecy will remain among you as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a caliphate according to the manner of prophecy as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a distressful kingdom which will remain as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a proud kingdom which will remain as long as Allah wishes it to remain, then Allah Most High will remove it. Then there will be a caliphate according to the manner followed during the prophethood (by the prophet)." Then he stopped. Habib said: "When Umar ibn AbdulAziz became caliph I wrote to him, mentioning this tradition to him and saying, "I hope you will be the Prince of the Faithful Believers after the distressful and the proud kingdoms." It pleased and charmed him, i.e. Umar ibn AbdulAziz." (Al-Tirmizi, Ahmad, Bayhaqi in Dala'il Nubuwwah)
Based on Abu Saeed Al Khudri, the Prophet (SAW) said, "Allah never sends a prophet or gives the Caliphate to a Caliph but that he (the prophet or the Caliph) has two groups of advisors: A group advising him to do good and exhorts him to do it, and the other group advising him to do evil and exhorts him to do it. But the protected person (against such evil advisors) is the one protected by Allah." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)
The Prophet (SAW) said: The Khilafah in my Ummah after me will be for thirty years. Then there will be Mulkan aduudan (hereditary rule) after that. [Tirmidhi]
The Prophet (SAW) said:
The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allah wills it to be. Then Allah will raise it when He wills to raise it [meaning the prophet will die]. Then there will be the khilafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allah wills it to last. Then Allah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then Allah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it.Then there will be a khilafah upon the Prophetic methodology. Then he (the Prophet) was silent. (Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)
Finally
There are plenty of hadith i can give you but what is the point because we will never know when this prophecy of 12 Caliphs will be filfulled until the Mahdi arrives.
Yes the Mahdi will be one among the 12 Caliphs prophesied.
Peace
Farouk
Thank you faroq for the information, so as far as I know from these Hadith,there must be someone right now as well because it clearly says that! According to sunni ulema is the Mahdi a khalifa? And who is the khalifa right now? And the Mahdi already born? My point is the according to those Hadith there is always a khalifa until the gudge ment day, but because there is only 12 of them than one of them has to be somewhere now and will live till gudge ment day! Right or what is your opinion?
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Sabour
Well-Known Member
Can I please know what makes you think that ?
Again, I am replying to your post for the sake of the other RF members, and I must say that your attitude will only harm you…
Now look how are you unsuccessfully struggling to hide the undeniable truth that this Hadith Fits ONLY AND ONLY the twelve Shia imams.
As if you have not read the Quran, where prophets have been described as Caliphs and and Imams.
And just reflect to find how weak this point is.
If the Hadiths in which the prophet SAAW is talking about the ahlul-bayt imams (s) were about Umar and Yazid your answer and the answer of your scholars will be different.
Before showing that you are wrong as the prophet (s) has indeed mentioned the names.
Let me before that say that: No Muslim can deny that he named Imam Ali, and his two sons peace be upon them all. And these Imams, in their turn have named the remaining imams.
And if you have really done your homework you will find that the prophet (s) has mentioned their names, and in one hadith he told Jabir Ibn Abdullah al Ansari that he will live to see imam Baqer a.s. and the prophet asked Jabir to deliver his Salam to imam Baqer a.s.
In this reply I will mention this Hadith :
Al-Juwayni (محمد بن حمويه الجويني الشافعي
in his Farai’d as-Simtayn,(فرائد السمطين , reports the Following Volume 2, page 313:The Prophet (s) said: “I am the chief of the Prophets and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al Mahdi.”
الجويني عن عبد الله بن عباس، قال: قال رسول الله (ص
So why don’t you fear Allah and mention the Mutawatir Hadiths of the Thaqalyan (the two weighty things) and ‘the Hadith of the Arc’ in which the prophet compared his household members to the arc of Noah, whoever embark in it will be saved and whoever will leave it will be doomed .
Finally, based on the fact that the first caliphs have forbid the writing of the hadith until the secod hijri century after the death of all the companions-for the sake of hiding the truth and not for the protection of the Quran as they unsuccessfully tried to convince the masses- any logical person must depend on the Hadith of Ahlul-bayt a.s. where they commanded their Shia to defy the ban order and to write the Hadith of the prophet and his Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Based on all of this, the ones who dismiss the Hadith of the prophet to be ambiguous and must be ignored have only exploited their true selves.
May Allah guide those who deserve to be guided to the religion of Muhammad and his infallible progeny.
Many Shia books were written during the times of the Imams, and some were shown to the imams for approval of their authenticity.
However the idea of claiming that a book other than the Quran is certainly authentic in all of its content is wrong...
through the centuries books have been transcribed by many transcribers... mistakes are possible.
However, mistakes in the Shia hadith books are rare...and there are rules
to be applied in dealing with them.
farouk
Active Member
Peace to all.
Never heard from Farah.Hope she is ok.
Shia Islam
What about Nahj-ul-Balagha.It is a collection of Sermons, Letters and miscellaneous Sayings left as a memorial from Hazrat Ali (RA).
Is this book authentic?
Are there any mistakes in this book?
Note if there are any mistakes and doubts then can you list them out so that i can study it.
Tks in advance.
Peace
Farouk
seeking4truth
Active Member
The question of Califs in Islam can be solved by looking for God's hand in the affairs of Muslims.
Throughout their history there have been differences of opinion and splits according to different allegiances. God supports those who struggle(jihad) to follow the right path and the example of the Prophet Muhammad as long as there are such.
There have always been claimants to be the Calif.
How many communities today claim to follow a Calif?
How many are following the teachings and example of the Prophet?
1 Rashidun Caliphs (632–661)
2 Umayyad Caliphs (661–750/1031)
2.1 Caliphs of Damascus (661–750)
2.2 Emirs of Córdoba (756–929)
2.3 Caliphs of Córdoba (929–1031)
3 Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr (684-692)
4 Abbasid Caliphs (750–1258/1517)
4.1 Caliphs of Baghdad (750–1258)
4.2 Caliphs of Cairo (1261–1517)
5 Other Caliphates (909–1269)
5.1 Fatimid Caliphs (909–1171)
5.2 Almohad Caliphs (1145–1269)
6 Caliphs under the Ottoman Empire (1451–1924)
7 Sharifian Caliphate (1924)
8 Ahmadi Caliphate (1908–present)
Throughout their history there have been differences of opinion and splits according to different allegiances. God supports those who struggle(jihad) to follow the right path and the example of the Prophet Muhammad as long as there are such.
There have always been claimants to be the Calif.
How many communities today claim to follow a Calif?
How many are following the teachings and example of the Prophet?
1 Rashidun Caliphs (632–661)
2 Umayyad Caliphs (661–750/1031)
2.1 Caliphs of Damascus (661–750)
2.2 Emirs of Córdoba (756–929)
2.3 Caliphs of Córdoba (929–1031)
3 Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr (684-692)
4 Abbasid Caliphs (750–1258/1517)
4.1 Caliphs of Baghdad (750–1258)
4.2 Caliphs of Cairo (1261–1517)
5 Other Caliphates (909–1269)
5.1 Fatimid Caliphs (909–1171)
5.2 Almohad Caliphs (1145–1269)
6 Caliphs under the Ottoman Empire (1451–1924)
7 Sharifian Caliphate (1924)
8 Ahmadi Caliphate (1908–present)
farouk
Active Member
Too many claimants but very few fits the profile.
Now what the heck you could just add my name as well.
9. Farouk Caliphate (1938-present)
Bottom line we will never know who the 12 are until the Mahdi confirms it.At present its just conjecture and you could add your name to the list as well.
Peace
Farouk
The prophet (s) said: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate"...
Reading Nahj-ul-Balagha is a must.
The most famous commentaries/explanations of this great book were written by Sunnis.
Read it.
farouk
Active Member
Tks for the info but are their any mistakes in this book or is this book 100% authentic.
Peace
Farouk