1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

State of the dead, the Soul.

Discussion in 'Seventh-day Adventist Church DIR' started by reddogs, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. reddogs

    reddogs Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    271
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Seventh Day Adventist
    Here is a explanation by my friend palehorse...
    "Now, to begin with, I think we can both agree that Matthew 10:28 does not define what a soul is; and I believe that is the question at hand. Or maybe I should ask plainly, what is the question exactly? Exacting answers come from exacting questions.
    While I agree that the NT's usage of soul/psuche (Strong's #5590) is an expanded one that covers various symbolic meanings, however none of the NT references that I'm aware of define what a soul is. That definition is found in the OT.

    Now some points on this verse in question:
    1) By one saying that this verse possibly indicates that the soul is a seperate, dualistic part of a human, than the verse itself states clearly that the soul is NOT immortal; "destroy both soul and body in hell". That alone tells me that the soul, however we decide to define it, CAN be destroyed - thus it is not immortal.
    2) When we look at the various definitions for psuche in the lexicon we find a miriad of possible definitions. How do you decide which one of these definitions fits?
    3) When one reads the entire Matthew 10 (particularly starting at 10:16 onward) account we find that Christ is talking to the apostles in regards to their persecution as they are being sent out to spread the Gospel. He tells them how hard it is going to be (such as in 10:9 how they would be poor (no gold, nor silver, nor brass)). He tells them not to fear those that are going to persecute them, that they would be brought before governers and kings (verse 18) by those that would have them persecuted. Basically, what we find is Jesus warning them but at the same time giving them strength to do His work - that is the theme - not fearing men. He is telling them to stay strong, for though men may be able to kill them ONLY God can determine ones salvation.
    4) I think the crux of your point is going to be "why is body and soul mentioned seperately if they are one and the same as your essay states"? That is a very simple answer; as I stated at the beginning of this reply, the NT expands the means of words used in the OT. Soul in the NT, as we've seen from the Strong's Lexicon #5590, has various meanings. But you'll notice that virtually every definition (in particularly definition #2) shows traits that are associated with the whole being of a person (their feelings, desires, affections, etc). These are parts of the whole person, not some seperate "essense" as the very last definition (2c) would try to squeeze in. As such, the verse simply means [paraphrase] "do not be afraid of those that can kill you, if you are going to be afraid of anyone be afraid of God, for it is He that can destroy you utterly as it is He that decides your salvation".

    Does this make sense for I might not have been very clear? But I think once we look at the entire body of texts the overwhelming conclusion of what a soul is easily found. According to rule #7 we must harmonize less-clear verses with those that are more clear. As such, Gen 2:7 is the clearer verse and it tells us exactly what a soul is.... Bible tells us what a soul is (which we saw in Gen 2:7) and that only God has immortality at this point (1 Timothy 1:17 & 1 Timothy 6:15-16). Let's see those verses quickly:
    1 Timothy 6:15-16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
    1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    To arrive at the conclusion that souls are somehow immortal would take a lot of scriptural proof, and as far as I know, such scriptures simply do not exist.


    (A) verse that tells what a soul is [Gen 2:7], that only God has immortality [specifically 1 Tim 6:16], that man can in fact destroy a human soul (for that is what David was talking about)[Psalms 40:14 specifically]; in light of this it would seem the clearest interpretation that can be derived is that the Bible teaches body/soul/spirit wholism verses body/soul dualism.

    If I may add a verse to further support my the Gen 2:7 verse (for we should never rely on just one verse for any biblical truth) that man is a soul instead of man having a soul;

    1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    This verse supports Gen 2:7 for 1) it is talking about the same event, the creation of man, and 2) it reaffirms that man was made a living soul - not man was given a living soul.

    John 11:25 & 26 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

    I can certainly see where this verse, especially due to the use of the word never, does make it seem that the soul/spirit/something doesn't die. So let's look at this.
    Reading through the verse I see some keys; 1) we see Christ saying He is the resurrection (which we all firmly believe) and 2) He talks of those that were dead. Now since we know that Christ is the resurrection (i.e. - He has the power to resurrect us) and He will resurrect those that died who believed in Him. But then Christ says "And"! Of course "and" means "in addition to". Christ is talking about two groups of believers; in verse 25 He is addressing those that died (the ones He'll raise from the grave), in verse 26 He is addressing those that will be alive when He returns - for they will put on immortality [1 Corinthians 15:53 & 54] and never die.

    I must admit, it took me reading that verse about 7 times before it struck me that there are two different groups being addressed by Christ - and recognizing that now puts this verse in perfect harmony with all the other verses contained in my essay.
     
  2. reddogs

    reddogs Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    271
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Seventh Day Adventist
    I'd like to address the Matt 10:28 verse again for I believe there is a small thing you might have overlooked:
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    This marks a definite separation of body from 'soul.'
    I addressed this very point in my above reply; on the surface I would agree - but if what you say is true we'd have to eliminate Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45 from the Bible, which of course we cannot do. Or it there another alternative that will harmonize all of these verses? Yes there is, and the key to that is understanding the definitions of the Greek word psuche, allow me to post those definitions from Strong:


    1) breath

    a) the breath of life

    1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

    a) of animals

    b) of men

    b) life

    c) that in which there is life

    1) a living being, a living soul



    2) the soul

    a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
    c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
    Now, I must agree with definition 2a due to its agreement in harmonizing all the scriptures in play. I cannot agree with definitions 2b or 2c for those are what we are trying to prove in the first place. Also, using those definitions puts disharmony between the verses in question. You see, as I tried to explain earlier, what Christ was telling the apostles was simple; "don't fear those that can kill you, for they can't take away your reward of salvation no matter what they do, they cannot kill (def 2a) your desires, your affections i.e. what is in your heart; but God can utterly destroy you". The verse was not intended to define what a soul is, as such we must lend more weight to those verses that state outright what a soul is; the word psuche was used in this verse to denote those intangible parts of a human that cannot be harmed by man - the seat of the emotions and intellect.

    I'd like to next address the verses from Revelation...
    Revelation 6:9 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...
    Now, you stated that this leads you believe in what is termed today as the "immortal soul". But we should bear in mind certain things when reading any prophetic book ... is the highly figurative language being used. For instance, John also saw strange beasts coming out of the sea, a woman riding a ferocious beast, another woman clothed with the sun, etc. There is all kinds of imagery used in Revelation that is symbolic of a greater truth; the souls under the alter is no exception and hardly constitutes a reliable reference in which one should base a doctrine on. The verse in Rev 18 should be questioned on this premise as well. I could go on to explain exactly what the souls of the martyrs symbolizes but that is a long study that falls well outside the scope of this souls discussion. But let me leave you with one thought, if this verse is to be taken literally (as your position demands) then what honor or purpose is there in stuffing martyred souls under an alter? Is this to be taken literally? Another important question I have for you in this regard - you said that there is no time in heaven...

    Heaven is the eternal house meaning there is no time left...
    ..but when we look at the account of the souls under the altar they ask a question:
    "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Now, if there is no time in heaven why do they ask such a question? It would appear there is a contradiction here, don't you think? Also, there is talk of the 1,000 years in heaven (Rev 20:2-6) and it is mentioned 6 times.

    After reading John 11 I feel there are some things to point out:
    1) Yes, Jesus is speaking to Martha - but He is talking about the death of Lazarus. After checking my parallel Bible I find that the NIV correctly calls this chapter "The Death of Lazarus" for that is the very topic.
    2) Christ says (verse 11) "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth...but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep". When questioned by the disciples it says (verse 14) "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead". As Christ said, Lazarus was dead, utterly and completely dead, and had been dead for 4 days at this point in the chapter. Christ makes no mention as to a "sleeping soul" - Christ makes no differenciation at all in fact.
    3) When Christ does eventually raise Lazarus from the tomb (verse 43), Lazarus comes forward in a regular fleshy body - not as a disembodied spirit; for he is still wearing his graveclothes and bound (as the custom of the day was) hand and foot (verse 44).

    You see, that is what makes our coming ressurection a true miracle - that Christ performs another act of creation and brings us to life. There is no indication in the Bible that a disembodied soul/spirit returns to reanimate a dead body - the soul IS that dead body.
    At this point I need to make something very clear for I think this point has been lost; the question being asked here is what is a soul, and not what is the meaning of the Greek word for soul in the NT. That seems to be the hangup. Are we discussing the meaning of psuche or are we trying to define what constitutes the soul. In light of the direct references (Gen 2:7 and 1 Corinthians 15:45) we know what a soul is - it is the body. The NT's psuche, is an expanded, and somewhat poetic, description for the untangible parts of a whole person such as the feelings, the desires, etc. These same attributes are also given to the heart and the mind because they help to make up a whole person.

    If someone says that any part of Lazarus (or ourselves for that matter) isn't 100% dead when Christ says he is dead and doesn't further qualify His statement, then that means we are falling under the belief of the very first lie ever recorded in the Bible -
    Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    We most certainly and surely die; 100% and completely. You saw my essay, as such, you know why I come to this conclusion.

    If I may add one small observation - and I'm in no way aiming this at you; just maybe the whole of Christiandom: it is the belief that some part of us doesn't truly die that is causing spiritualism & occult practices and religions to blossom. We teach our kids that the soul doesn't actually die and that leaves that child wide open to adopting beliefs and curiosities about contacting those spirits. I walk through the local Christian book store and I see tons of books talking about the "rise in the occult in the USA" but none them, not one, has been able to define "why" it is happening. I can tell you why for I was one of them; before coming to Christ I was Wiccan for over 8 years. And during that time I was involved with such things as evocation and invocation (which are common occult practices) but here is the shocking thing - most of the time I was doing these things with interested Christian-raised young adults. Why were they interested, easy, they were taught from a young age that they don't surely die. (I know this last part was well off topic so please don't feel you have to respond to this part. It's just that I don't see the perspective of an enduring soul/spirit taught in the scriptures and I see Satan's lie as it has crept into the church.)
     
  3. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,395
    Ratings:
    +1,616
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    tl;dr

    But yeah, if I caught the drift, we are created in the triune image of God, with a mind/soul (Father), body (Son) and spirit.

    Spirit is immortal--but impersonal--it is merely the force that animates the inanimate matter of our bodies, and it returns to God from which it came upon death. It is not "us" that survives, merely the force that made our bodies alive.

    Bodies are mortal--and personal--that part of us is always destroyed after death as our bodies are recycled into the universe.

    Souls--which are definitely personal, the part of us that makes us "us"--can be either saved and spend eternity in the presence of God, or they can be destroyed at the judgment (burned up in the Lake of Fire).
     
  4. reddogs

    reddogs Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    271
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Seventh Day Adventist
    Only God is immortal, scripture is clear...

    New International Version
    who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    New Living Translation
    He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.

    English Standard Version
    who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

    Berean Study Bible
    He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

    Berean Literal Bible
    alone having immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one of men has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

    New American Standard Bible
    who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

    King James Bible
    Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Christian Standard Bible
    who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see, to him be honor and eternal power. Amen.

    Contemporary English Version
    Only God lives forever! And he lives in light that no one can come near. No human has ever seen God or ever can see him. God will be honored, and his power will last forever. Amen.

    Good News Translation
    He alone is immortal; he lives in the light that no one can approach. No one has ever seen him; no one can ever see him. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    the only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; no one has seen or can see Him, to Him be honor and eternal might. Amen.

    International Standard Version
    He alone has endless life and lives in inaccessible light. No one has ever seen him, nor can anyone see him. Honor and eternal power belong to him! Amen.

    Only God is immortal, mankind is not immortal:

    1 Tim 6:14 ... our Lord Jesus Christ 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    God will take the saints to heaven and allow them to eat of the tree of life, the wicked will perish as they are consumed in the Lake of Fire.

    Revelation 2:7 King James Version (KJV)

    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 22 King James Version (KJV)

    1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
     
    #4 reddogs, Nov 12, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  5. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,395
    Ratings:
    +1,616
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    Yeah, that's what I said--but I managed to squeeze it into two sentences.
     
  6. reddogs

    reddogs Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2010
    Messages:
    271
    Ratings:
    +34
    Religion:
    Seventh Day Adventist
    Souls are just people, like 'how many souls on the ship'.
     
Loading...