Star Wars Philosophy and the problem with THE FORCE

[The Sum of Awe]

If anyone here is familiar with the Star Wars epic trilogies I'm sure many of us have taken away a multitude of ideas or "borrowed ideas" away from the movie. Some of the issues I've personally found in Star Wars was:

A) The Jedi point-of-view, as explained later by Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Empire Strikes Back and

B) The concept of the force

For now I want to hold off on A) but what has become peculiar to me is that for B) I had a problem with "The Force."

Some issues I have:

1) Midichloreans which are microscopic life forms that exist in all living things and they "speak the will of the force." Well, my thing is these life forms are independent of the host and if that is so, what becomes problematic is the will of the force having two sides both good and bad, apparently it is possible that these life forms can also influence our desire to do evil and of course I have to ask is what is their true purpose?

My other question is what is the will of the force independent from our own will? Or is our will one and the same with the force? Are the midichloreans simply a collective synthetic being?

All of which leads to the problem of morality.......I apologize if it sounds a bit confusing

It is late but will explain more regarding A)

-saving this place for reminder to edit later-

 

[Barcode]

To answer A) I believe Palpatine said it best when referring to the force: "In order to acheive knowledge of the force one must study all of its aspects."

I believe this is the problem of the jedi's point of view.

In "Empire Strikes Back" Luke asks Yoda: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda quickly says: "No, no, no-only {more} seductive"

Yet Yoda doesn't allude whether the light side is more powerful.

 

[DreadFish]

To answer A) I believe Palpatine said it best when referring to the force: "In order to acheive knowledge of the force one must study all of its aspects."

I believe this is the problem of the jedi's point of view.

In "Empire Strikes Back" Luke asks Yoda: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda quickly says: "No, no, no-only {more} seductive"

Yet Yoda doesn't allude whether the light side is more powerful.

Yes, I can agree, on one hand, with Palpatine's perspective but, I believe he only said that so he could seduce Anakin to join him and be his apprentice. I agree with Yoda, on the other hand, because most who follow the dark side do it purely out of selfish desire for power and often get sucked into it and lose control of themselves.

EX.: Anakin joined Palpatine because he wanted to stop death to save his love (selfish intention driven by desire.) Along with also being deceived that the Jedi were actually evil, which he believed because they would not allow him to do what he wanted.

I dont think that one is inherently more powerful than the other.

I think the only thing that separates the "light" from "dark" side is the intention, perhaps?

 

[darkstar]

To answer A) I believe Palpatine said it best when referring to the force: "In order to acheive knowledge of the force one must study all of its aspects."

I believe this is the problem of the jedi's point of view.

In "Empire Strikes Back" Luke asks Yoda: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda quickly says: "No, no, no-only {more} seductive"

Yet Yoda doesn't allude whether the light side is more powerful.

That's actually been addressed in the expanded universe. Jedi have all the power, but their ethical code does not allow for its use.
Sith (dark side force users for this that don't know) take the fast track to power. They gain knowledge only of the techniques to gain power and intimidate or harm others. Thus they are very powerful at first, but they usually don't keep gaining power after a certain point. The sith generally aren't more powerful, but their ethical code allows for much more.

There is actually a group of Jedi that use both light and dark side techniques and are quite powerful and secretive.
Also in the new Jedi order set up by Luke, many ex-sith join the new Jedi order. They bring knowledge of the dark side, have a different set of ethics, and the Jedi are generally able to display much more power while still being the good guys.

Yeah... I know way too much about the star wars universe. But there you have it. It's mostly boiling down to ethics and lack of study that you have to look at. Not the Force itself.

 

[DreadFish]

Sounds like a good explanation to me.

 

[Majikthise]

That's actually been addressed in the expanded universe. Jedi have all the power, but their ethical code does not allow for its use.
Sith (dark side force users for this that don't know) take the fast track to power. They gain knowledge only of the techniques to gain power and intimidate or harm others. Thus they are very powerful at first, but they usually don't keep gaining power after a certain point. The sith generally aren't more powerful, but their ethical code allows for much more.

There is actually a group of Jedi that use both light and dark side techniques and are quite powerful and secretive.
Also in the new Jedi order set up by Luke, many ex-sith join the new Jedi order. They bring knowledge of the dark side, have a different set of ethics, and the Jedi are generally able to display much more power while still being the good guys.

Yeah... I know way too much about the star wars universe. But there you have it. It's mostly boiling down to ethics and lack of study that you have to look at. Not the Force itself.

One of the reasons I am a huge fan of the Star Wars universe is the grey ethical areas. Lucas borrowed alot from ancient myth and legend rooted deep in human experience and psychology.
I've always had a problem with the Jedi being described as good. Seems to me the Jedi are like the superhero that the city calls on when the villain causes trouble. The Jedi are also, IMO, obsessed with omen and prophecy and will use their power to influence events in their favor. There's the whole issue of the clone army that has always bothered me. The clones are living thinking beings but the Jedi will throw thousands of them into battle without hesitation using them like you would a droid. Then there's the whole ecthical arguement of how droids are treated.

Well I want to get much deeper into this but the kids are with friends, the old lady is out doin' her thing an I promised a friend I'd have a couple of scorpion bowls with him tonight. Be back later.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Personally, I like that midichlorians were introduced as an attempt at a naturalistic explanation for the force. I find it adds to, rather than detracts from, the idea of the force.

I think it could've been a need addition: the idea that what was originally science could turn into quasi-religion over time.

Of course I know that the physics of Star Wars maybe improbable in our eyes but as the youngest species in our galaxy I dont know if Space flight of that kind is improbable or theoretically impossible.

I'm not talking about hyperdrive or anything like that. I'm talking about the way that Star Wars fighters fly.

Actual space fighters would move like these:

[youtube]tWl1ZteUS8U[/youtube]
Babylon 5 vs Earth Alliance - YouTube

Jump to 2:00 to see the best example of what I'm talking about.

 

[Riverwolf]

Personally, I like that midichlorians were introduced as an attempt at a naturalistic explanation for the force. I find it adds to, rather than detracts from, the idea of the force.

Well, I would say something, but then again, who am I, one of the few who liked Jar Jar, to talk about someone not minding the midiclorians?

 

[Barcode]

Yes, I can agree, on one hand, with Palpatine's perspective but, I believe he only said that so he could seduce Anakin to join him and be his apprentice. I agree with Yoda, on the other hand, because most who follow the dark side do it purely out of selfish desire for power and often get sucked into it and lose control of themselves.

EX.: Anakin joined Palpatine because he wanted to stop death to save his love (selfish intention driven by desire.) Along with also being deceived that the Jedi were actually evil, which he believed because they would not allow him to do what he wanted.

I dont think that one is inherently more powerful than the other.

I think the only thing that separates the "light" from "dark" side is the intention, perhaps?

I am inclined to agree but one could argue that Anakins conversion to the darkside was initially a self-less attempt since the power he wanted to achieve was to "stop people from dying" {see Star Wars Episode 2}.

 

[DreadFish]

I am inclined to agree but one could argue that Anakins conversion to the darkside was initially a self-less attempt since the power he wanted to achieve was to "stop people from dying" {see Star Wars Episode 2}.

True, maybe his motivation was not entirely selfish. But had he not lost his mother or run the risk of losing his wife, he probably would not have thought about trying to stop people from dying.

I dont mean "selfish" in a necessarily negative way, but simply the attempt to accomplish something because it would prevent him from losing someone he loved. So it was driven by that selfish desire to stop death that he fell to his emotions and desire.

Also, part of his conversion was because he started seeing the Jedi order in a negative light because they would not allow certain things, and then Palpatine propagated false information to make Anakin think they Jedi were in fact malignant and selfish and trying to gain power and control.

So I guess we could say that it was a mix of selfless and selfish desires.
I think ultimately, he was simply deluded, and as a result could not perceive things clearly and fell victim to these various factors

 

[DreadFish]

BTW, on the topic of Star Wars... I am starting to watch the Star Wars Holiday Special. Probably wont have much time for it tonight, but it promises to be absolutely terrible (AND has Bea Arthur (AND AND Harvey Korman)), so I have to at least try it


Should be nothing less than... Something..... I'll let yall know how it went.

 

[Riverwolf]

BTW, on the topic of Star Wars... I am starting to watch the Star Wars Holiday Special. Probably wont have much time for it tonight, but it promises to be absolutely terrible (AND has Bea Arthur (AND AND Harvey Korman)), so I have to at least try it


Should be nothing less than... Something..... I'll let yall know how it went.

Just a fair warning, George Lucas is personally ashamed of that one, and has even gone out of his way to make sure nobody saw it.

To put that in perspective, he considered Jar Jar Binks okay, he considered having Darth Vader yell "NOOOO!" okay, he considered killing off Chewbaca okay, he considers the Clone Wars cartoon okay, yet he's personally ashamed of the holiday special.

With that said... well, good luck.

 

[DreadFish]

Just a fair warning, George Lucas is personally ashamed of that one, and has even gone out of his way to make sure nobody saw it.

To put that in perspective, he considered Jar Jar Binks okay, he considered having Darth Vader yell "NOOOO!" okay, he considered killing off Chewbaca okay, he considers the Clone Wars cartoon okay, yet he's personally ashamed of the holiday special.

With that said... well, good luck.

Killing off Chewbaca!?! On what grounds do you speak such words?? I have not seen Chewbaca killed in anything

I watched the beggining, it is delightfully terrible so far

But must attend to other matters now. Will watch more later.

 

[McBell]

Killing off Chewbaca!?! On what grounds do you speak such words?? I have not seen Chewbaca killed in anything

I watched the beggining, it is delightfully terrible so far

But must attend to other matters now. Will watch more later.

Yes, in the "Official" book series Chewbacca dies.

 

[Riverwolf]

Killing off Chewbaca!?! On what grounds do you speak such words?? I have not seen Chewbaca killed in anything

The book Vector Prime, book one of The New Jedi Order series. The author wrote the manuscript, and sent it in to the publisher. They, however, wanted various characters to be killed off, and sent a list of people they wanted to kill to George Lucas for approval. (Supposedly, at the top of the list was Luke Skywalker.) Lucas sent back a list of people they couldn't kill, and Chewie wasn't on the list.

He didn't even die in real combat; a moon (or something) crashed into Kashyyyk and destroyed the planet.

This was back in 1999, the same year Phantom Menace came out. That year is the year where Star Wars essentially died, and as far as canon goes, I ignore everything made after that.

 

[DreadFish]

........



:thud:

 

[McBell]

The book Vector Prime, book one of The New Jedi Order series. The author wrote the manuscript, and sent it in to the publisher. They, however, wanted various characters to be killed off, and sent a list of people they wanted to kill to George Lucas for approval. (Supposedly, at the top of the list was Luke Skywalker.) Lucas sent back a list of people they couldn't kill, and Chewie wasn't on the list.

He didn't even die in real combat; a moon (or something) crashed into Kashyyyk and destroyed the planet.

This was back in 1999, the same year Phantom Menace came out. That year is the year where Star Wars essentially died, and as far as canon goes, I ignore everything made after that.

The 1999 novel Vector Prime by R. A. Salvatore (the first in the New Jedi Order series) marks Chewbacca's last chronological appearance in the Star Wars universe. Chewbacca dies when he sacrifices his life to save Han's son Anakin from a collision between the planet Sernpidal and one of its moons.
Source

 

[Riverwolf]

The 1999 novel Vector Prime by R. A. Salvatore (the first in the New Jedi Order series) marks Chewbacca's last chronological appearance in the Star Wars universe. Chewbacca dies when he sacrifices his life to save Han's son Anakin from a collision between the planet Sernpidal and one of its moons.
Source

And I do feel the need to point out that it's not renowned Forgotten Realms author Salvatore's fault; it was the editors'.

 

[McBell]

And I do feel the need to point out that it's not renowned Forgotten Realms author Salvatore's fault; it was the editors'.

The concept of killing such a character was the decision of the book editors (said to include Randy Stradley, a then-editor at Dark Horse Comics[1]), who sent a list of characters they would like to kill to George Lucas, with Luke Skywalker at the top of the list. The response was what characters they couldn't kill, and Chewbacca wasn't on the list, hence his selection. This is covered – in some detail – in the round table interview with the series editors published at the end of the final New Jedi Order novel, The Unifying Force. Opinion was sharply divided as to whether this death of a beloved character was an effort to boost sales and interest in the new series, or if it served the dramatic purpose of declaring that not even the core characters were necessarily "safe" anymore. However it was George Lucas who told R.A Salvatore to kill Chewbacca, not R.A. Salvatore himself.

Source

 

[Barcode]

True, maybe his motivation was not entirely selfish. But had he not lost his mother or run the risk of losing his wife, he probably would not have thought about trying to stop people from dying.

I dont mean "selfish" in a necessarily negative way, but simply the attempt to accomplish something because it would prevent him from losing someone he loved. So it was driven by that selfish desire to stop death that he fell to his emotions and desire.

Also, part of his conversion was because he started seeing the Jedi order in a negative light because they would not allow certain things, and then Palpatine propagated false information to make Anakin think they Jedi were in fact malignant and selfish and trying to gain power and control.

So I guess we could say that it was a mix of selfless and selfish desires.
I think ultimately, he was simply deluded, and as a result could not perceive things clearly and fell victim to these various factors

Interesting analysis