Sppon bending and miracles

[JerryL]

from http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=230868#post230868

Bill Bixby then did the very same things himself to show it was a hoax.

It was the inability to reproduce the event ... not the ability. If the appearance of the event would have been reproduced, the reproducer would have been a million dollars richer.

Obviously self-contrary

Oh, now they're "people". They're not "scientists"? So when a scientist makes a goof, and publishes it, he's a "person", but when he's "right", he's a "scientist"?

The point of my sentance was that you were entierly off-topic. It's interesting that you've not even responded on the topic of the setance.

If the scientific community ever believed that a plesiosaur was something other than a reptile, then they were wrong. I'm not aware that they ever did.

Tell me: why did "many people" think that? Personal observation, or were they taught that by reputable scientists?

Because people don't like thinking. They would rather a simple, pat answer than a complex reality.

None ... not a one ... and they never will, either; not in this dispensation. Had Paul been there, or Peter, or one of the Apostles; and it was, say, 70 AD, they may have just bankrupted NBC.

Which falls back to your hypocracy (oops, I'm going on the orignial thread's topic here). You accept one claim with no proof while proudly declaring your skepticism of far more mundane claims.

If you were to heat a metal spoon to around I'd say 87 degrees F you would be able to easily bend it.

What? Where are your getting your information on metalurgy from? Are you at all confused that you can put a spoon in boiling (>200F) water without it bending when you try to manipulate weights with it (for example: stir something)?

87F will not make any spoon material I'm aware of more pliable than "room temperature" (usually around 78).

 

[Ryan2065]

What? Where are your getting your information on metalurgy from? Are you at all confused that you can put a spoon in boiling (>200F) water without it bending when you try to manipulate weights with it (for example: stir something)?

So you are saying that if you left a spoon in a boiling pot of water for say 30 mintues (then it would be the same temperature as the water) that it would be very hard to then bend the spoon? Have you ever actually seen a spoon bending party? Penn and Teller aired one as they did a BS on spoon bending. You could see alot of the people shaking they were trying to bend the spoon so hard. Ok, here is how you bend a spoon. Pick up a spoon. Hold it in your hand for like an hour. Then using your hands, bend it. That is exactly what is done at spoon bending parties. They never use their minds, they only use their hands, and then say that they were able to do this because of their minds.

Or are you saying that spoon bending is real and that the mind really does aid the hands in bending the spoon?

 

[JerryL]

So you are saying that if you left a spoon in a boiling pot of water for say 30 mintues (then it would be the same temperature as the water) that it would be very hard to then bend the spoon?

It would be about the same as at room temperature. Recall that the spoon, and the pot containing the boiling water (presuming steel pots) are generally the same material (http://fantes.com/stainless_steel.htm)

Or are you saying that spoon bending is real and that the mind really does aid the hands in bending the spoon?

Nope. I'm saying that a 90-degree spoon has the same tensile strength as a 70-degree spoon.

 

[Fatmop]

<<misinterprets Jerryl's Thread>>
<<responds By Attacking Strawman>>
<<quote-mines>>
<<smug Conclusion>>

 

[michel]

I'd dearly love to know what this thread is all about.

 

[JerryL]

Tests for hoaxes.
Temperature at which stainless steel changes tensile strength.
Reliability of claims.

Take your pick.

 

[Ryan2065]

Tests for hoaxes.
Temperature at which stainless steel changes tensile strength.
Reliability of claims.

Take your pick.

I think he is trying to say that spoon bending with the mind is real and that there are no tests against it to prove that it isnt.

 

[Valjean]

Michel,

Spoon-bending was made famous by the Israeli magician Uri Geller decades ago, who denied his "tricks" were magic and attributed them to some physio-magnetic abnormality.

Geller could take a piece of metal like a spoon, hold it in his fingers, and it would droop like a Dali stopwatch. He could hold it by one end, lightly stroke it with a finger, and it would break in two. He claimed mechanical devices often failed spontaneously in his presence. He could never wear a watch. Coins in his pocket would be removed looking like they'd been melted.

His famous Nemesis was The Amazing Randi. A professional magician who claims real magic does not exist and that all tricks have a logical, though carefully concealed, explanations. Randi can duplicate Geller's thaumaturgy and has some huge sum of money held in escrow somewhere to be awarded to anyone who can demonstrate a real magical or supernatural event.

 

[michel]

Ah, so I take it you might consider yourself as a skeptic?

 

[Valjean]

As far as I know, the prize remains unclaimed...

 

[JerryL]

I think he is trying to say that spoon bending with the mind is real and that there are no tests against it to prove that it isnt.

No. I'm not. I'm saying that the claim that spoons bend more easily when warmed up by body heat is a false claim. I make no positive claim as to what's happening at spoon-bending demonstrations; only that a reduction in tensile strength as the result of heating to 90-100F is not it.

His famous Nemesis was The Amazing Randi. A professional magician who claims real magic does not exist and that all tricks have a logical, though carefully concealed, explanations. Randi can duplicate Geller's thaumaturgy and has some huge sum of money held in escrow somewhere to be awarded to anyone who can demonstrate a real magical or supernatural event.

This does tie in to one of my claims... that the ability to reproduce an effect does not mean that you have the same cause.

Let's take floaters for example. They are highly-charged structures which "levitate" as the result of ionic breese. The effect could be duplicated with magnets, or with wires, or with enough air current.

The fact that I can do the same effect (make the structure float) with wires does not mean that it was done with wires in the other circumstance. It simply emans it *can* be done with wires.

I'm not a believer in spoon bending. But I also don't think that the standard (can the effect be reproduced) disproves anything... it only opens up the possability of an alternate explanation. The next step would be devising a test which eliminates the ability of the "trick" to work without interfering with the claimed process (which can be difficult when the original claim is nebulous).

 

[Valjean]

Temperature has nothing to do with spoon-bending. A good spoon-bender can hold a large, hardened *******-file, length of re-bar or fire-poker lightly in his fingers and you can watch it droop as if it were clay.

 

[Valjean]

Hey! There is a perfectly innocent, common metal-shaping tool whose name contains a synonym for an illegitimate child. Who's responsible for deleting it? :tsk:

 

[meogi]

Hey! There is a perfectly innocent, common metal-shaping tool whose name contains a synonym for an illegitimate child. Who's responsible for deleting it? :tsk:

RF is responsible. It has auto-filter's set for certain words.

 

[Fatmop]

Show me spoon bending. Links. This seems interesting.

 

[michel]

Obviously self-contrary

Obviously not. Re-read my post. I said it was a "snippet" between the 10 disciplines on NBC's Million Dollar Challenge. Bill Bixby didn't get a dime for it, as it wasn't the main theme of the program, and not included in the challenge. It would be stupid to put up one million dollars for anyone who can bend a spoon on live TV.

 

[michel]

If the scientific community ever believed that a plesiosaur was something other than a reptile, then they were wrong. I'm not aware that they ever did.

But you ARE aware of the question I asked you that you didn't answer, aren't you? (You should be, since you deleted it.) But I'll ask it again: How did the common people come to view a plesiosaur as something other than a reptile, if they weren't taught that? Please don't dance around my point. If you've got something to say to me, say it clearly.

Because people don't like thinking. They would rather a simple, pat answer than a complex reality.

Yeah --- it's called Occam's Razor.

Which falls back to your hypocracy (oops, I'm going on the orignial thread's topic here). You accept one claim with no proof while proudly declaring your skepticism of far more mundane claims.

I believe your question to me was: Did Bill Bixby recreate any miracles on NBC? To which I replied NO ... neither did the 'experts' recreate the results of their craft. What's your point? That God's miracles and some water dowser's claim are synonymous?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

RF is responsible. It has auto-filter's set for certain words.

Must not have a large data-base of words.

I believe your question to me was: Did Bill Bixby recreate any miracles on NBC? To which I replied NO ... neither did the 'experts' recreate the results of their craft. What's your point? That God's miracles and some water dowser's claim are synonymous?

But whos to say these "experts" were for real, and not actors. There a relativly few real metaphysicist and occultist. Easily over 90% of the so called fortune tellers are greedy frauds, and are damned good a reading body language to sound convincing.

I've been trying that spoon bending all day and body heat seems to not work that well. Some of the spoon benders bend the spoons far too quickly for body heat to heat the spoon much higher than room temperature. It is possible that some spoon benders have some sort of magic prop on them to aid in doing things that seem to require mind power. I can use my M5, go up to any group of strangers, and in just 5 minutes, convience them I have great pshychic abilities. Stacking four pennies vertically on top of each other seems impossible, but I can do it with that little device. To the observer, it appears I roll my eyes in the back of my to fall into a trance, I slowly stack the pennies, and hover my hand above them for a few seconds, then I fall out of the trance, and the pennies also fall. But in reality, I roll my eyes up for show, as with my hand, and the "pennies" are responding to a type of magnetical pull from the M5. It's very possible spoon benders use a similiar device.

 

[michel]

But whos to say these "experts" were for real, and not actors. There a relativly few real metaphysicist and occultist. Easily over 90% of the so called fortune tellers are greedy frauds, and are damned good a reading body language to sound convincing.

There were 10 top experts in their respective fields. The only two I can remember were the Aura Reader and the Water Dowser. I can't remember anyone else.

I just know that not one of them were able to perform their metaphysical skills before a live audience.

I don't even remember any names. Just Bill Bixby, who hosted the show.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Just for a perspective, my great-uncle was what they called a 'water-witch' (a dowser) and he not only could perform before an audience, he pretty much had to, since his 'skills' were used for helping people find places to put wells. I can't claim to 'read' auras, but I can see them, and I don't know why anyone would have trouble doing so in front of an audience.