Soteriology and the error of Infant Condemnation?

[Novatian]

How could someone be a slave to sin unless God designed them to be so?

FYI: "free will" is a non-answer. A red herring.

Lucifer and his tree of knowledge of good and evil with an agreement instilled sin in him. He also wanted equality with God by stealing. God didn't want his death, a feat of Lucifer the Devil, the accuser of the brethren. God's design, God's son, Satan's design, son of the Devil. Sin is a nature not of God living in us. Jesus came to bring us back into Kingdom living and to overcome sin, as on the cross, instilling His blood with power by obedience to death under the pressure or weight of all our sin combined. And this blood was used to raise Jesus from the dead. Other powers like refining fire and living water also overcome sin. Spirits and sin are the problem. God didn't design it for Himself and His pleasure and glory...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lucifer and his tree of knowledge of good and evil with an agreement instilled sin in him.

So Lucifer designed humans to sin? Who created Lucifer?

And was God:

- okay with what Lucifer was doing, or
- not okay with it but unable to stop him?

He also wanted equality with God by stealing. God didn't want his death, a feat of Lucifer the Devil, the accuser of the brethren. God's design, God's son, Satan's design, son of the Devil.

Again: where did the Devil come from if not from God?

Sin is a nature not of God living in us. Jesus came to bring us back into Kingdom living and to overcome sin, as on the cross, instilling His blood with power by obedience to death under the pressure or weight of all our sin combined. And this blood was used to raise Jesus from the dead. Other powers like refining fire and living water also overcome sin. Spirits and sin are the problem. God didn't design it for Himself and His pleasure and glory...

So...

- God creates the universe, including Lucifer and people.
- Lucifer acts against God's will (how?).
- Lucifer corrupts humanity.
- God is unable to stop all this.
- God sends Jesus to help clean up some of the mess that God has caused.

Is this a fair summary?

 

[blü 2]

God allows free will and does not override it by force. You have not because you ask not.

Looking at the fall of the angels of death and the fall of Adam and Eve God tests us. There is Job and the Our Father. Lead us not into temptation. We don't live in a simulation, matter is real and people choose evil, like the terrorists.

In Genesis 6 God regrets making parts of creation and floods them. Later according to Peter Jesus preaches to them in Hell and they are freed and given gifts.

The consequence of real free choice is that some sin. It makes life hard for us. There is temptation and curse, deception and threat. God doesn't want to lose any souls to Hell.

For some reason, we are blinded and cut off from an open Heaven and grace and truth. It is not automatic. Paul in Acts prays for us to have our eyes opened for repentance and finding our place in God's Kingdom.

People and their behavior arise from a mix of genes and experiences, heredity and environment. The former is not in the control of individuals and the latter only partly in their control, especially when growing up.

I've never understood why a merciful God would send anyone to hell. Why not just cure them instead?

Even Adolf. Why not simply starve Satan out of business?

 

[Novatian]

So Lucifer designed humans to sin? Who created Lucifer?

And was God:

- okay with what Lucifer was doing, or
- not okay with it but unable to stop him?




Again: where did the Devil come from if not from God?


So...

- God creates the universe, including Lucifer and people.
- Lucifer acts against God's will (how?).
- Lucifer corrupts humanity.
- God is unable to stop all this.
- God sends Jesus to help clean up some of the mess that God has caused.

Is this a fair summary?

Lucifer only designed sin.
God wants us to choose for ourselves. So He cannot make the decision for us or against us.
Lucifer came from God, perfect, Satan is his own choice of character, apart from God's will and design.

So...
-God creates Lucifer and people.
-Lucifer has free will and a giant mind and wants more than to be a servant and aims to be like God and to rise up independently. He abandons light and love and pursues a prideful lust for glory.
-Lucifer corrupts the first couple. He entices them to treason, to steal equality with God, to know good from evil and be independent.
-God allows this. God wants the first couple to have complete free choice to enable genuine love. The same freedom was part of the opportunity to have love and a perfect nature, perfect blood... in the Garden of Pleasure. But now there is suffering.
-Jesus is sent after many promises that He will come and save us. For those who accept Him is complete restoration at least two fold.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Lucifer only designed sin.

But God designed Lucifer, so either:

- God foresaw that Lucifer would sin, or
- God failed to foresee that Lucifer would sin.

Which is it?

God wants us to choose for ourselves. So He cannot make the decision for us or against us.
Lucifer came from God, perfect, Satan is his own choice of character, apart from God's will and design.

That would still leave God responsible for Satan and Satan's actions.

So...
-God creates Lucifer and people.
-Lucifer has free will and a giant mind and wants more than to be a servant and aims to be like God and to rise up independently. He abandons light and love and pursues a prideful lust for glory.

"Free will" really just means not restricting people from doing what they want to do.

Why would Lucifer want to sin unless God designed him that way?

-Lucifer corrupts the first couple. He entices them to treason, to steal equality with God, to know good from evil and be independent.
-God allows this. God wants the first couple to have complete free choice to enable genuine love. The same freedom was part of the opportunity to have love and a perfect nature, perfect blood... in the Garden of Pleasure. But now there is suffering.

If God allows it, then it's consistent with God's will, no?

-Jesus is sent after many promises that He will come and save us. For those who accept Him is complete restoration at least two fold.

Why would we need saving from anything? What imperfection do you see in God's holy plan?

 

[Novatian]

But God designed Lucifer, so either:

- God foresaw that Lucifer would sin, or
- God failed to foresee that Lucifer would sin.

Which is it?



That would still leave God responsible for Satan and Satan's actions.



"Free will" really just means not restricting people from doing what they want to do.

Why would Lucifer want to sin unless God designed him that way?


If God allows it, then it's consistent with God's will, no?


Why would we need saving from anything? What imperfection do you see in God's holy plan?

God knew from various perfect foresightful arrays that Lucifer would sin, He hated it, and chose the least damaging array with finality of defeat for the workers of iniquity. That is why I mention God choosing to create angels and not create some others. God is wise, but hypothetically, had the power to create angels with so much power that it would injure Him to deal with their fall. Because God is a mighty creator.

God is responsible for creating free will, not for Satan's actions, at least not directly, He is responsible for us especially while we are children.

Free will means having the ability to choose for oneself, to know and choose. Now from good and evil. Animals are free but cannot understand much or repent or change their own nature, Lucifer could. To a lesser extent we also can.

Lucifer was designed perfectly and iniquity was found in him by his independent thinking and choice. He thought about his options carefully, and discorded God's design. This was not God's will but is contained within God's omniscience.

God allowed it, because with us creations, there was no better way amidst the disorder, but this is the least disorderly array of angels and sons of God, from say, many trillions of other options.

We can still come good into God's will.

God is saviour. God didn't want sinners and damnation to have to be. He never hardens or condemns infants.

 

[Novatian]

The cross is the foolishness of God, neither the Father or Son wanted it.

When some of the angels fell, it hurt God, no place was found for them any longer. Hell was created. The fires of Hell bring out the most from the nature of evil, that God can't tolerate in His presence.

God does not wish for us to sin or harden our hearts when He can soften them. In some cases salvation is not evident, because it has not been asked for. Romans 8 mentions God foreknows who will take to His grace. Romans 9 and God uses the way some harden their hearts, in the second place.

 

[Bthoth]

This is rather hubristic thinking, no?

After reading bible and many forms of historical information, i gathered that baptism, of time period was bathing.

Remember the romans created bath houses and civil folk were often cast well above the peasants. IN the first century, bathing was not a standard for the common folk but to clean off the sin of stink, any person could fit in as an equal to the upper class as civilized.

I figure that baptism was not about washing away sins until religious folk took the ritual and created the model but when it was initially used by solid teachers such as jesus, it was about elevating the person to feel equal to others and feel better about themselves? And what could be an immediate fix? Bathing!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God knew from various perfect foresightful arrays that Lucifer would sin, He hated it, and chose the least damaging array with finality of defeat for the workers of iniquity.

So you're saying that God was incapable of making Lucifer better than he turned out to be?

You make God sound incompetent.

God is responsible for creating free will, not for Satan's actions, at least not directly, He is responsible for us especially while we are children.

You just said that God knew what Satan would do, but created him and unleashed him on humanity anyway. This would make God responsible for Satan's actions; we're all responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions.

Lucifer was designed perfectly and iniquity was found in him by his independent thinking and choice. He thought about his options carefully, and discorded God's design. This was not God's will but is contained within God's omniscience.

I presume you don't see the contradiction in what you're saying.

God allowed it, because with us creations, there was no better way amidst the disorder, but this is the least disorderly array of angels and sons of God, from say, many trillions of other options.

We can still come good into God's will.

God is saviour. God didn't want sinners and damnation to have to be. He never hardens or condemns infants.

If God condemns anyone, he's condemning his own abilities as a creator.

 

[Novatian]

So you're saying that God was incapable of making Lucifer better than he turned out to be?

You make God sound incompetent.




You just said that God knew what Satan would do, but created him and unleashed him on humanity anyway. This would make God responsible for Satan's actions; we're all responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions.




I presume you don't see the contradiction in what you're saying.



If God condemns anyone, he's condemning his own abilities as a creator.

Lucifer had what he needed to be a perfect angel, as in Hebrews 6:6, he had everything and knowledge. In those times, there was no blood of Jesus. As God created him, he turned out well. He was able to choose for himself and chose evil. If God used some other resource whether in knowledge or presence and power, it may have made him turn out better for longer. But it could have ended off more disastrously.

Consider that God could simply not have made Lucifer. I'd say God saw this would end up worse in the long run. Something outside God's power, free will. And more than an animal Lucifer had knowledge and understanding of God and angels and natural laws... He could choose surrender to God or independence, to love or to hate... It is not a matter of God's ability, Satan was perfect then in free choice chose evil intent...

If God feels He is responsible for us, maybe that is why He persisted with Israel and gave us His Son.

In omniscience, God knew evil would come about, and it was not what He wanted, but He could form it in His hand but disliked it. Suffering comes to be useful. If we share in Christ's sufferings, we share in His glory. Lost souls when found bring joy. So Lucifer/Satan was foreknown and taken into account in God's omniscience. God cannot make him right, because that would be like forcing romance on a lover against her will. God won't do it.

Satan's strength is in his stubborn prideful heart.

Unless one surrenders to God, they miss salvation. They are independent, and God wants interdependence. God cannot make or force you to choose Him and His way so, no, if He condemns someone, it has been their choice, or perhaps they were deceived...

 

[Novatian]

Little ones, fetuses through to children, if they die, are taken into the light of life. But the same people or even their identical twins, may miss out on eternal life if they die much later. Something happens inside in response to grace as we get older, we lose childlike trust. It is not that God hardens our hearts and predestines some of us to go to Hell.

Infant condemnation shows a misunderstanding, beyond that is infant salvation, and there is no predestiny to Hell. In Jesus' blood is prevention and cure for sin. For anyone who asks or is asked for.

I'd say John Calvin misunderstood salvation/soteriology.

 

[F1fan]

I think God gives us a free choice, that was the way it was in the beginning with Adam, now we have sin living in us and blindness.

Just as God designed it to happen.

God can give us vision and salvation, for the Greeks who first read Acts and met Paul, some of them directly benefited from spiritual vision and others indirectly.

Given the rise of Islam it doesn't seem to have been enough. Your God is either incompetent, or a sociopath. As you state God had regrets for some of what he created, and that indicates a flawed God who can't foresee the consequences of what he is doing, much like Adam.

Adam was a simple creature compared to a glorious angel leading the Heavens of sons of God and angels in worship. His knowledge of many things were vast, God, light, love, himself, other angels, truth what it is, how it works, to find and use and it's progression in hearers, and he knew deception by nature, and had the ability to choose his own nature and character. He was persuasive. He perfectly loved the glory and power of God and still does, but no longer the person and character of God. That was his fully independent choice, it is at the root of what sin is. And it is the root of evil and his character. The accuser leads us to sin and deceived Adam and Eve and they sinned. Adam didn't know so much, he was naive and could not determine his own nature, but was free to make decisions. It is not God's fault. God wanted him to be tested. We don't need to know of Satan for our normal interests.

Indeed, Adam was not able to make wise decisions, so when God (via the Satan that God created) tempted him and Eve the were too naive to resist, thus a setup by God.

Preferably Adam would have learned a nature of obedience in the presence of Satan, and as we grew over generations we would no longer be subject to temptation. And could have the power Satan had and never choose evils or to hate God or to change our nature towards cold hearts...

Adam learned afterwards, but it was too late. God is not reasonable, but flawed. God must have not undrstood the consequences of how he set up A&E.

I suppose regarding Genesis 6, God sometimes engages things, within creation, and history, in time, space and human hearts and souls and bodies, and wants to experience us. In this case He seems to act without omniscience, and part of what happens in the moment and grand scheme is up to a conversation, with Methuselah, Noah, Abraham, or Moses. He enters our finite minds.

You make God sound like a human. It's likely the early Hebrews created Yahweh as a representation of humans, for better or worse.

In the beginning, there were no angels, and God could have made angels that would follow Lucifer or greater ones than him, or not made him at all. What do you think, why did God make Lucifer and those who went with him?

God makes mistakes, as you acknowldge in his regrets.

 

[Novatian]

Just as God designed it to happen.

Given the rise of Islam it doesn't seem to have been enough. Your God is either incompetent, or a sociopath. As you state God had regrets for some of what he created, and that indicates a flawed God who can't foresee the consequences of what he is doing, much like Adam.

Indeed, Adam was not able to make wise decisions, so when God (via the Satan that God created) tempted him and Eve the were too naive to resist, thus a setup by God.

Adam learned afterwards, but it was too late. God is not reasonable, but flawed. God must have not undrstood the consequences of how he set up A&E.

You make God sound like a human. It's likely the early Hebrews created Yahweh as a representation of humans, for better or worse.

God makes mistakes, as you acknowldge in his regrets.

God if you want to say designed sin, it was not by pushing it into being, but by observing trillions of options of flow charts of actions of potential beings. And then choosing the best flow chart to create.

Adam was capable of righteous commitments. It was possible he could have done well, as other sons of God must have.

God is omniscient and perfect. The limit is not in God but free willing entities.

YAHWEH is benevolent and his names and works took hundreds of years to instill. They are tested testimonies. Some, ancient history. As I explained, God would design and create, then enter space and time to see and experienced the good of it. He would meet and engage with righteous men like Abraham and Moses and could in engaging conversation, change His mind and the fate of one or many people. And return to the Heavens and the everpresent, different time and space nature of Heaven.

 

[F1fan]

God if you want to say designed sin, it was not by pushing it into being, but by observing trillions of options of flow charts of actions of potential beings. And then choosing the best flow chart to create.

God designd Eden to fall by creating flawed humans who were incapable of obedience. If God really wanted them to obey he would have created them with adequate wisdom, but that was the point of the tree of knowledge, the didn't have the necessary knowledge to resist temptation. It was a set up.

Adam was capable of righteous commitments. It was possible he could have done well, as other sons of God must have.

Speculation. None of this is in the story.

God is omniscient and perfect. The limit is not in God but free willing entities.

Then what happened in Eden was deliberate. All disease is deliberate, including defects and childhood cancers. This begs the question: since a child developing cancer is God's will, is medical care against God?

YAHWEH is benevolent and his names and works took hundreds of years to instill.

According to your beliefs this isn't true. God is a serial killer.

They are tested testimonies. Some, ancient history. As I explained, God would design and create, then enter space and time to see and experienced the good of it. He would meet and engage with righteous men like Abraham and Moses and could in engaging conversation, change His mind and the fate of one or many people. And return to the Heavens and the everpresent, different time and space nature of Heaven.

Who cares, God kills little kids with cancer and defects. That makes him unworthy of praise and respect.

 

[Novatian]

God designd Eden to fall by creating flawed humans who were incapable of obedience. If God really wanted them to obey he would have created them with adequate wisdom, but that was the point of the tree of knowledge, the didn't have the necessary knowledge to resist temptation. It was a set up.

Speculation. None of this is in the story.

Then what happened in Eden was deliberate. All disease is deliberate, including defects and childhood cancers. This begs the question: since a child developing cancer is God's will, is medical care against God?

According to your beliefs this isn't true. God is a serial killer.

Who cares, God kills little kids with cancer and defects. That makes him unworthy of praise and respect.

Your point of view has a hidden bitter bias, there is no reasoning with you.

 

[F1fan]

Your point of view has a hidden bitter bias, there is no reasoning with you.

My point is to expose that you have no factual argument, nor a valid rebuttal. You have conceded. You need facts to offer a reasoned case. Even using the assumptions Christians use to interpret Genesis there is no good argument to a loving and stable God.

 

[Novatian]

My point is to expose that you have no factual argument, nor a valid rebuttal. You have conceded. You need facts to offer a reasoned case. Even using the assumptions Christians use to interpret Genesis there is no good argument to a loving and stable God.

You have not succeeded at proving I have no factual argument except to yourself. I suppose this argument is 200 years old has played out many times, and there is an old Lutheran and Catholic... explanations you do not want to quote here. If I thought it was necessary I'd look for the old arguments. I would use scholars' not just my thoughts.