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Something I don't understand

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
JayJayDee said:
We are told in the Bible to 'hate what God hates'. (Amos 5:15) He does not hate the sinner but hates the sin. Sexual sin was addressed extensively in the law God gave to Israel. He is a God who does not change. His standards never alter. Where do you get the idea that homosexuality is somehow now acceptable among Christians? Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?
I realize this comment wasn't directed at me, but I want to point out something you may not be aware of. The phrase 'Hate the sin but not the sinner' has been overused in the USA is actually was used in a hateful way by televangelists. Also, the reason that God wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah is commented upon by the prophet Ezekiel, since it is not expressly explained in Genesis. "She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." From this we can deduce that Sodom was mistreating its visitors. I consider this opinion to be seconded by rabbinical seminaries who explain that in Abrahamic culture the sin of Sodom was bad hospitality. Personally I think Sodom was enslaving strangers who came to Sodom for various reasons, but the bottom line is that Ezekiel specifically doesn't say that sex is the problem with Sodom but vanity and arrogance and Genesis says the problem is wickedness. Therefore the claim much trumpeted that it was destroyed for sexual sins is an unfounded claim, biblically speaking.

If I may just correct a couple of things here Brick....First of all, I am not representing the Watchtower Society here at all. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower Society is a Bible Society, used by Jehovah's Witnesses to print and distribute large volumes of literature all over the world. It is a printing facility. We have carefully examined the scriptures...We have a unity of belief that is not found in the fractured churches of Christendom. (1 Cor 1:10)
Thank you for straightening that out, although I think that your approach to unity is the same as that of the fractured churches of Christendom, one that is based upon common doctrines. It is an approach that is doomed to fail in my opinion, but I do appreciate your dedication. I also know there are benefits to being part of a tight knit group like yours that can sing together etc. You could even own all things in common. There are many possibilities.

We have no reason to question our very carefully studied beliefs. We knew what they were when we decided to become Witnesses of Jehovah. Children born to Witness parents are free to choose their own course when they become of age. ...No one is a Witness who does not wish to be. If we disagreed with the teachings, we would not have become Witnesses in the first place....
The Watchtower Society has no 'authority' over any of us. It is the Bible as the word of God that dictates our beliefs and our conduct. Jesus is the head of our brotherhood....
I think that sounds very similar to the approach of the fractured churches of Christianity, just from what I am aware of.

If Jesus gave his disciples the commission to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" then where are the churches of Christendom fulfilling that commission? (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)
I don't want to pull you away from the topic at hand. I can see that you are concerned with the state of the world as it is. I am too.
 

SkylarHunter

Active Member
it comes down to what 'sin' (any kind of sin) represents.

Really, it represents our defiance of Gods right to determine what is right and what is wrong.

It is no different to someone driving 5kmph over the speed limit and being pulled up by the police and issued with a fine, then the same police offer pulling up a person driving 50kmph over the speed limit and issuing the same fine.

It would seem unfair to give a fine to the person who was just 5km over the limit seeing its such a small thing. But its the fact that you were over the speed limit and not being obedient to the road laws.

It doesn't matter to the police that it was only a small number... it was still an act of defiance of the speed limit and therefore merits disciplinary action.


When we likewise defy Gods laws, we are being 'defiant' and for that defiance, we merit disciplinary action.

I have nothing against disciplinary action, as long as it serves a purpose and matches the infraction.

In this case I would be the first to agree, if every single person on the planet was born with the exact same circumstances: a loving family, security, good education, principles, etc. If everyone was truly equal then whatever they became as adults would be entirely their choice. However, people are born into very different situations that will inevitably shape the adult they become.

We all need to be blamed for what we do and be responsible for our actions, but I find myself many times wondering if that person would have been that way if they had come from another background.

There is a part of us that is dictated by our genes but another, very significant part, comes from the things that happen to us.

If you had grown up in a bad neighborhood surrounded by criminals, with negligent parents and no education do you think you would be the same person you are today?
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Skylar Hunter said:
If you had grown up in a bad neighborhood surrounded by criminals, with negligent parents and no education do you think you would be the same person you are today?
I'd still be a hottie no matter what.
 
That depends on your translation of the Bible, in fact, it's kind of dubious that "gay people" were actually being referred to in that sentence since notions and labels of sexuality were very different at the time. I also don't think you can compare being gay to being a criminal, as long as you're only in consensual relationships between two adults, you're not hurting anyone (this goes for anyone regardless of sexual orientation) which is different from killing or hurting others in some way.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I feel that these verses mean not to let these things take your mind away from God, such as lust for someone else or even money and riches, these things in themselves have no true power, again its only when you let them take over your life and take your mind away from God.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I have nothing against disciplinary action, as long as it serves a purpose and matches the infraction.

In this case I would be the first to agree, if every single person on the planet was born with the exact same circumstances: a loving family, security, good education, principles, etc. If everyone was truly equal then whatever they became as adults would be entirely their choice. However, people are born into very different situations that will inevitably shape the adult they become.

We all need to be blamed for what we do and be responsible for our actions, but I find myself many times wondering if that person would have been that way if they had come from another background.

There is a part of us that is dictated by our genes but another, very significant part, comes from the things that happen to us.

If you had grown up in a bad neighborhood surrounded by criminals, with negligent parents and no education do you think you would be the same person you are today?

you make some very good points and i agree that circumstances do play a large part in how we turn out.

But the amazing thing about humans, is that even though we inherit the traits and mental inclinations of our parents, we can re-program ourselves. With the right motivation and support it can be done.

We know that reprogramming is possible because there are examples of people who have changed bad habits and improved their life by not following in their parents footsteps.

My own family are full of very 'interesting' characters. But i bucked the trend and chose a different path.... i became a Jehovahs Witness...the only person in my family to do so. So i know its possible not to be forever dictated to by the past.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

Retributive justice isn't really how God works. If there can be said to be punishment for sin, it is self-imposed. Those who see clearly know instinctively that they are looking into a mirror anytime they set eyes upon another being. Harming another causes one to grow ignorant of these connections, and harm himself in the process.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
JayJayDee said:
I disagree. As an apostle chosen by Christ, he had all the authority he needed to write what the Holy Spirit directed him to record. (2 Tim 3:16)

Sexual sin was still a very important topic of discussion by NT writers. (Col 3:5; 2 Pet 2:9, 10; Mark 7:21-23)

Paul also wrote...."But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

I don't think we are left in any doubt about how God feels about these things....do you?
Sorry I missed this earlier. Right, but among Christians in general Paul's authority has been debated constantly down through the centuries. Secondly he does appear to waffle on the Law and is sometimes talking about other things like something he calls Law of Sin and possibly another kind of Law in addition to laws and covenants of the Jews.

For the references you mention notice he says in Col 3:5 "Put to death whatever belongs to your earthly nature..." which does not focus upon sex. 2 Peter 2:9-10 doesn't specifically highlight sex, either. Mark 7:21-23 is about how evil comes from the heart and is not obtained from an outside source. It has no focus upon sexual sins either.

On the contrary, Paul is clear and unequivocal in his condemnation of sexual sin.
He is equally vocal about idolatry. All sin is serious but some sins carried the death penalty. The law was specific about what penalties applied to which sins.
I'm not the last word on this and respect your opinion, but I would partly disagree. He is very much against idolatry but is softer on sexual things, because he understands that these come due to the weakness of the law in the flesh. Idolatry is a much bigger problem, and that is because its not merely about stone statues but about the seduction of Christians by other systems, other powers, other ways of life. He himself complains of the war of the law of sin within himself, and he says it fights against the law of the spirit.

With Paul sex is about as bad as wasting time, just doing nothing at all. He would have you diligently working all the time. By all reports that is something you JW's do very well, and I think you understand how much easier it is to stay busy and stay out of trouble when you are with a group of people who are busy doing something. I'd much rather be doing something good than just sitting around trying not to sin, and it is easier to stay busy with other people. Perhaps one of the biggest problems Christians have today is that they are lonely.

Jesus did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. He was sent exclusively to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". So it was to those Jews who had lost their way through bad shepherding that Jesus was sent, initially. Paul upheld all the teachings of his master and unlike his fellow apostles, he was an educated man who was used in a mighty way to preach to people of the nations, as well as to his fellow countrymen. He contributed more to NT scripture than any other writer.
He is merely repeating what the law in Leviticus had stated all along. Homosexual activity has always been a sin to the Creator for all the reasons already stated.
Well that is a difficult interpretation to follow. Possibly it is too advanced for me, and also I have seen a lot of debates about it. I'm fairly sharp but when comes to arguments about wayward shepherding I'm mostly focused in the present and am more concerned about the present state of things. I think that the Jews are fine and don't need our help, and I think that we (inclusive of you and me and a bunch of other people but not you in particular) are in dire straights and turmoil. Things aren't right, and things aren't great.
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I feel that these verses mean not to let these things take your mind away from God, such as lust for someone else or even money and riches, these things in themselves have no true power, again its only when you let them take over your life and take your mind away from God.

Put simply.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

The Law was made for a purpose. It is designed to qualify one to live a time frame of an eternity. However, as humans we can't consider things with a scope of eternity. Only God can.

So the question boils down to, what is the effect of homosexuality to a human from the perspective of surviving an eternity?

No one is qualified for an answer to this question. The chances are, if you don't have the conscience when violating God's design purpose for something, or you don't have the conscience when doing something which God considers as an abomination, perhaps you won't be able to survive the eternity called the Kingdom of God, as in the end you need to live with Him in such an eternity.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The Law was made for a purpose. It is designed to qualify one to live a time frame of an eternity. However, as humans we can't consider things with a scope of eternity. Only God can.

So the question boils down to, what is the effect of homosexuality to a human from the perspective of surviving an eternity?

No one is qualified for an answer to this question. The chances are, if you don't have the conscience when violating God's design purpose for something, or you don't have the conscience when doing something which God considers as an abomination, perhaps you won't be able to survive the eternity called the Kingdom of God, as in the end you need to live with Him in such an eternity.

Well, that's certainly a novel interpretation that I've never heard before. :sarcastic
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

I believe Paul has a short list of sins that are common to man but there are many more. The criteria is do you believe in committing sin or being saved from sin. If one doesn't believe in being saved from sin, he isn't a Christian and does no belong in the Kingdom of God.

I believe this to be true. However it is not much consolation if the punishment is light and the person does not enter the Kingdom of God.

I believe they do.

I believe that is true most of the time but when the world ends it is black or white, the person loves sin or he doesn't.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
That verse has nothing to do with homosexuality. It wasn't translated as "homosexual" until the 1950s and much older translations of the Bible translate it as "effeminate". The Greek word "malakoi" basically means "effeminate" in terms of a man being "soft" or "cowardly". It has nothing to do with homosexuality. So that word being used in that verse is more correctly interpreted as saying that a man should be strong, courageous and have perseverance, like a warrior. Really, this reflects more on the sexism and macho attitudes of Greco-Roman culture than anything else.

Malakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe that does not corresond with the OT law which does consider homosexuality a sin and to my knowledge being somewhat efeminate is not a sin.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Well, that's certainly a novel interpretation that I've never heard before. :sarcastic

There are alot you never heard of. Humans are with very limited knowhow though their arrogance says otherwise.

In another thread;

The Kingdom of God is an eternity built for God, angels and humans to live there forever. Law is a setup to qualify angels and humans for entering such an eternity. Humans are expected to fail in front of a judgment by Law. God however sent Jesus to provide an alternative for human salvation.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

SkylarHunter,
Good question!, Think about it this way, all sinners that continue to practice their immorality will receive the same punishment, but there is a big IF that goes with this thought. No matter what a person has done in the past, if he stops practicing this sin, the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus can easily cover his sin. But notice what Hebrew 10:26&27,says; if we continue your practice after you have learned that it is bad, there is NO ransom for us. Jesus died so that all men could live, but everyone must take advantage of this Free Gift if he wants to get into The Kingdom of God, by making an effort to obey God's will, and then when we fail, to not give up, but to keep praying to God for forgiveness, and continually trying to do better. Remember none of us is perfect, we will continue to sin, but our sins are not charged to us if we ask God for forgiveness, for then we are under the protective care of Jesus' Ransom Sacrifice, Matt 20:28, 2Cor 5:14&15, Rom 8:34, Hebrew 10:16&17.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Law was made for a purpose. It is designed to qualify one to live a time frame of an eternity. However, as humans we can't consider things with a scope of eternity. Only God can.

So the question boils down to, what is the effect of homosexuality to a human from the perspective of surviving an eternity?

No one is qualified for an answer to this question. The chances are, if you don't have the conscience when violating God's design purpose for something, or you don't have the conscience when doing something which God considers as an abomination, perhaps you won't be able to survive the eternity called the Kingdom of God, as in the end you need to live with Him in such an eternity.

I don't believe a person who has not repented sin will enter the Kingdom of God.

I don't believe there is any Biblical support for this belief.
 
J

johnpeter1970

Guest
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

Answer:

There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. (Luke 13:1) And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? (Luke 13:2) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3) Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? (Luke 13:4) I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:5)
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?
God hates immorality, that's why. And immorality in any form hurts people. It hurts parents. It hurts children, and families in general. It tears them apart.

I don't think we should be second guessing God, the creator of the universe. He sees the whole picture. We do not.

Blessings,

Katie
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I don't believe a person who has not repented sin will enter the Kingdom of God.

I don't believe there is any Biblical support for this belief.
Yes there is support. It's already been stated. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

But there is hope fo sinners. REPENT or perish. Luke 13:3,5

Blessings,

Katie
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?


God's ultimate plan is to build an eternity where humans and angels will live with Him happily forever. A sin is defined as a sin in terms of how to maintain such an eternity. We humans have no idea about what affects such an eternity. In the end you need to live with God in eternity. God will not be happy at all if you practice an abomination in His eyes.
 
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