Something I don't understand

[SkylarHunter]

My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

 

[Thana]

Well, The bible doesn't really go into specifics. But it does tell us how merciful and just God is, And I trust that. So I would say, Whatever punishments there are will be fair and just.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It has nothing to do with gay people as we know them today. It's a mistranslation.

Read here: Malakoi is NEVER used in the Bible to mean gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans.

 

[JayJayDee]

My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul goes on to say..."that is what some of you were"......past tense. Some needed help to change their lifestyle to one that was acceptable to a God.

We can all avail ourselves of God’s holy spirit. This is a powerful force for change. Our loving heavenly Father never fails to respond when sincere requests are made for holy spirit to assist with making this change. Jesus assures us that the Father will “give holy spirit to those asking him.” (Luke 11:13) Persistence in prayer is necessary, though, as indicated by his words: “Keep on asking, and it will be given you.” (Matthew 7:7) This would be especially true when bringing powerful sexual desires under control.

Some Christians in the first-century congregation at Corinth were previously in the category of “men kept for unnatural purposes” and “men who lie with men.” Yet, they changed. The blood of Christ cleansed them, and they became acceptable in God’s sight. Some today need to make similar changes.

Does this mean that becoming a Christian will automatically cure a person of all deviant desires or confusion over gender? Not necessarily. Persistent application of Bible principles has enabled some to live fulfilling lives. Even so, these Christians often have had to wage a day-to-day struggle against wrong desires. Such ones thus serve God despite having a figurative “thorn in the flesh.” (2 Corinthians 12:7) As long as they continue to battle wrong inclinations and maintain Christian conduct, God views them as faithful servants and as clean in his eyes, despite their "orientation".

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

Homosexuality makes one into a thief. Their desire for same sex relationships makes them steal something that God says does not belong to them. No unnatural sexual relationships are acceptable to our Creator. Sin is what created these problems at the start. Jesus came to rid us of that sin.

The only way to facilitate lawful sexual relations in God's eyes, is to be married. Marriage is God's arrangement; it is the formation of a new family unit with a male and female capable of bringing children to birth in that family. There is nothing in the Bible's definition of marriage that allows for same sex couples to legalize their relationship, so they must by definition be viewed as fornicators. No fornicators or adulterer will inherit the kingdom. So there is no way to legitimize homosexuality in God's eyes. Sex is for the production of children first and foremost. No homosexual couple can bear children with each other.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

What makes you think they don't? The wages of sin is death. We all pay those wages whether we live a righteous life or not, so what is the point of living the life that Jesus recommended?

Those who have proven faithful to death will be assured of their reward. But those who know what is right and yet deliberately fail to do it, will have no such assurance. You are right when you say that God judges us all individually, but we can be certain that he will never approve of someone who is deliberately wicked or who looks for ways to justify errant behaviors.

I am fairly certain that man's definition of "wicked" and God's may be very different. God does not tolerate deliberate and wilful sin....period. He never has.

If we take some steps down a wrong path, we have choices to correct our course and gain forgiveness if we are repentant, but if we choose a path in direct opposition to God's stated commands, we will not receive his forgiveness.

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

It isn't the sin that is unforgivable...it is sometimes the sinner who cannot let go of his wrong desires. Those who make sacrifices for God will get the reward. He knows how big the sacrifice is. It is the same with those Christians who wish to marry and cannot find a suitable mate. They sacrifice their desires too. It is not only homosexuals who have to do this.

Those who want to satisfy their present desires by breaking the laws of God, will not inherit the kingdom. Do you think that God is unjust? Is he asking too much?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Paul goes on to say..."that is what some of you were"......past tense. Some needed help to change their lifestyle to one that was acceptable to a God.

We can all avail ourselves of God’s holy spirit. This is a powerful force for change. Our loving heavenly Father never fails to respond when sincere requests are made for holy spirit to assist with making this change. Jesus assures us that the Father will “give holy spirit to those asking him.” (Luke 11:13) Persistence in prayer is necessary, though, as indicated by his words: “Keep on asking, and it will be given you.” (Matthew 7:7) This would be especially true when bringing powerful sexual desires under control.

Some Christians in the first-century congregation at Corinth were previously in the category of “men kept for unnatural purposes” and “men who lie with men.” Yet, they changed. The blood of Christ cleansed them, and they became acceptable in God’s sight. Some today need to make similar changes.

Does this mean that becoming a Christian will automatically cure a person of all deviant desires or confusion over gender? Not necessarily. Persistent application of Bible principles has enabled some to live fulfilling lives. Even so, these Christians often have had to wage a day-to-day struggle against wrong desires. Such ones thus serve God despite having a figurative “thorn in the flesh.” (2 Corinthians 12:7) As long as they continue to battle wrong inclinations and maintain Christian conduct, God views them as faithful servants and as clean in his eyes, despite their "orientation".



Homosexuality makes one into a thief. Their desire for same sex relationships makes them steal something that God says does not belong to them. No unnatural sexual relationships are acceptable to our Creator. Sin is what created these problems at the start. Jesus came to rid us of that sin.

The only way to facilitate lawful sexual relations in God's eyes, is to be married. Marriage is God's arrangement; it is the formation of a new family unit with a male and female capable of bringing children to birth in that family. There is nothing in the Bible's definition of marriage that allows for same sex couples to legalize their relationship, so they must by definition be viewed as fornicators. No fornicators or adulterer will inherit the kingdom. So there is no way to legitimize homosexuality in God's eyes. Sex is for the production of children first and foremost. No homosexual couple can bear children with each other.



What makes you think they don't? The wages of sin is death. We all pay those wages whether we live a righteous life or not, so what is the point of living the life that Jesus recommended?

Those who have proven faithful to death will be assured of their reward. But those who know what is right and yet deliberately fail to do it, will have no such assurance. You are right when you say that God judges us all individually, but we can be certain that he will never approve of someone who is deliberately wicked or who looks for ways to justify errant behaviors.

I am fairly certain that man's definition of "wicked" and God's may be very different. God does not tolerate deliberate and wilful sin....period. He never has.

If we take some steps down a wrong path, we have choices to correct our course and gain forgiveness if we are repentant, but if we choose a path in direct opposition to God's stated commands, we will not receive his forgiveness.



It isn't the sin that is unforgivable...it is sometimes the sinner who cannot let go of his wrong desires. Those who make sacrifices for God will get the reward. He knows how big the sacrifice is. It is the same with those Christians who wish to marry and cannot find a suitable mate. They sacrifice their desires too. It is not only homosexuals who have to do this.

Those who want to satisfy their present desires by breaking the laws of God, will not inherit the kingdom. Do you think that God is unjust? Is he asking too much?

That verse has nothing to do with homosexuality. It wasn't translated as "homosexual" until the 1950s and much older translations of the Bible translate it as "effeminate". The Greek word "malakoi" basically means "effeminate" in terms of a man being "soft" or "cowardly". It has nothing to do with homosexuality. So that word being used in that verse is more correctly interpreted as saying that a man should be strong, courageous and have perseverance, like a warrior. Really, this reflects more on the sexism and macho attitudes of Greco-Roman culture than anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malakia

 

[JayJayDee]

It has nothing to do with gay people as we know them today. It's a mistranslation.

Read here: Malakoi is NEVER used in the Bible to mean gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans.

I question that statement.

Sexual sin was very specifically covered in the law God gave to Israel. Homosexual acts were also spoken about specifically.

From the Complete Jewish Bible...

"Leviticus 18:22 “You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

These were the scriptures that Paul used to write his letters to the congregations. God has not changed his mind about these things.

Romans 1:26-27 CJB "This is why God has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural; and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion."

How can you make these verses say something else?

If homosexual acts were an abomination back then, they must be an abomination today.

You can be gay or a Christian but I do not believe that the Bible allows you to be both. :sorry1:

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I question that statement.

Sexual sin was very specifically covered in the law God gave to Israel. Homosexual acts were also spoken about specifically.

From the Complete Jewish Bible...

"Leviticus 18:22 “You are not to go to bed with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

These were the scriptures that Paul used to write his letters to the congregations. God has not changed his mind about these things.

Romans 1:26-27 CJB "This is why God has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural; and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion."

How can you make these verses say something else?

If homosexual acts were an abomination back then, they must be an abomination today.

You can be gay or a Christian but I do not believe that the Bible allows you to be both. :sorry1:

I notice that you completely ignored what I posted about the real meaning of the word and are trying to distract by dredging up other verses. I clearly showed to that the verse from 1 Corinthians has nothing to do with homosexuality. Since you have chosen to skip over that, I'll accept your concession.

But if you want to get into the other verses, sure. I'll knock those down for you, too.

Let's look at the Leviticus 18:22 verse.

It's not as clear as you like to think. Lets look at it:

Analysis of Leviticus 18:22

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." 2
In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V'et zachar lo tishkav mishk'vey eeshah toeyvah hee."

• The first part of this verse is literally translated as "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman" Many, probably most, theologians, Bible translations and biblical commentators agree that the verse is directed at men who engage in at least some form of anal sex with other men. But they do not agree on the full scope of the forbidden activities. For example:
  • The Living Bible greatly widens the scope of the original Hebrew to include all homosexual acts by both men and women. They confuse the matter further by not differentiating between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior. They render the first part of this verse as: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden."
  • On the other hand, many religious liberals have interpreted the beginning of this verse as referring only to sexual activities between two males during a Pagan temple ritual. If there were a liberal translation of the Bible, it might say "Ritual anal sex between two men in a Pagan temple is forbidden."
• The second part of this verse explains what type of sin this transgression falls under. There are two types of sin in the Mosaic Code:
  1. Moral sin is produced by rebellion against God. This seems to be the interpretation of most biblical translations imply when they translate the Hebrew "toeyvah" in this verse into English words such as "abomination," "enormous sin," or "detestable."
  2. Ceremonial uncleanliness is caused by contact with a forbidden object or by engaging in a behavior which might be quite acceptable to non-Hebrews, but which was forbidden to the Children of Israel. Eating birds of prey, eating shellfish, cross breeding livestock, picking up sticks on a Saturday, planting a mixture of seeds in a field, and wearing clothing that is a blend of two textiles are examples of acts of ritual impurity which made a Child of Israel unclean. These were not necessarily minor sins; some called for the ancient Israelite to be executed or expelled from the tribe.

Religious conservatives and Bible translators tend to interpret this transgression as a moral sin. The King James Bible is typical; it calls sex between to men to be an "abomination." However, others interpret it as a ceremonial uncleanliness -- as an impurity, ritual impurity, or act that results in ceremonial uncleanliness.
​

The verse is, unfortunately, incomplete. Its precise meaning is ambiguous. The phrase "lay lyings" has no obvious interpretation. Attempts have been made to make sense out of the original Hebrew by inserting a short phrase into the verse. For example:

1. The Net Bible® translation 3 inserts two words to produce "And with a male you shall not lay [as the] lyings of a woman." A man must not have sexual intercourse with another man as he would normally have with a woman. i.e. anal intercourse between two men is not permitted. From this literal, word for word translation, they produce a smoother English version: "You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman."
2. An alternative translation would insert a different pair of words to produce: "And with a male you shall not lay [in the] lyings of a woman." That is, two men must not engage in sexual behavior on a woman's bed. Presumably, they must go elsewhere to have sex; a woman's bed was sacred and was to be reserved for opposite-gender sexual behavior.

Leviticus 18:22 and homosexuality; all views
Info on different translations of that verse: Translations and interpretations of Leviticus 18:22; all views
Info about the Hebrew word translated as "abomination": The Mosaic Code; Hebrew word To'ebah

So it's unclear exactly how that verse should be interpreted. Is it a condemnation of males taken the passive sex role with another male? Is it condemning anal sex in general between males? Or is it just saying that guys shouldn't have sex with each other in a woman's bed? Furthermore, is a ritual or moral law? It's simply not clear.

(If it is properly understood as a blanket condemnation of male-male anal sex, that still would not be a blanket condemnation of male-male sexual activities since there's many other ways for males to have sex with each other. Not all gay men practice anal sex and choose to have sex in other ways.)

So that's not a clear condemnation of male homosexuality in general. (Notice it says nothing about female homosexual activity. Curious.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Now lets move on to Romans 1.

Firstly, we should keep this in mind:

As stated by Dr. R.S. Truluck:


"Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro-choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on. Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said."

Now lets look at some important words in the passage:

Some important words in Romans 1:26-27:

It is important to understand the precise meaning of certain key words in Verses 26 & 27, as expressed in the original Greek:
About the words "vile affections:" The Greek phrase translated as "vile affections" in the King James Version of the Bible has also been translated into English as:
"vile affections and degrading passions" (Amplified Bible)

"dishonorable passions" (English Standard Version)
"degrading passions" (New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, & New Revised Standard Version)
"shameful lusts" (New International Version)
"shameful desires" (New Living Translation)
"evil things" (Living Bible)
"shameful affections" (Rheims New Testament)
"immoral, unnatural drives" (The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English) In the original Greek, the phrase probably does not mean "passions" or "lust" as people experienced in normal, day-to-day living -- the type of emotion that one encounters in a marriage or sexually active relationship. It seems to refer to the "frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music." 2 It seems to describe the results of ritual sexual orgies as performed in many Pagan settings at the time. Paul seems to be referring here to Pagan "fertility cult worship prevalent in Rome" at the time. 4 Vestiges of this type of sex magic are still seen today in some Neopagan religious traditions. The Wiccan "Great Rite" is one example. However, in modern times, such rituals are restricted to committed couples in private.



About the words "exchanged," "leaving," "change," and "abandoned:" These words are important, because they precisely describe the people about whom Paul is talking. From the text, he is obviously writing about women with a heterosexual orientation, who had previously engaged in only heterosexual sex, who had subsequently "exchanged" their normal/inborn behaviors for same-sex activities. That is, they deviated from their heterosexual orientation and engaged in sexual behavior with other women. Similarly, he describes men with a heterosexual orientation who had "abandoned" their normal/inborn behaviors and engaged in same-sex activities. In both cases, he is describing individuals with a heterosexual orientation, who were engaging in same-sex behavior -- in violation of their natural desires. In normal life, these are very unusual activities, because heterosexuals typically have a strong aversion to engaging in same-sex behavior. However, with the peer pressure, expectations, drugs, alcohol and other stimulants present in Pagan sex rituals at the time, they appear to have abandoned their normal feelings of abhorrence and engaged in same-sex behavior.

About the word "natural:" "The operative term in Paul’s original Greek is "phooskos", meaning "inborn", "produced by nature" , "agreeable to nature". 1 This term, and the corresponding phrase "para physin" described below, are open to interpretation:

To many religious liberals, gays, lesbians, mental health therapists, and human sexuality researchers, homosexual and bisexual orientations are normal, natural, and inborn for a small percentage of human adults. For gays, lesbians and bisexuals with these orientations, opposite-sex behavior would be abnormal and unnatural.

To most religious conservatives, and perhaps to Paul himself, all same-sex behavior is abnormal and unnatural, no matter by whom it is done and regardless of the nature of their relationship.

About the word "against nature," "unnatural," etc: The Greek phrase "para physin" is commonly translated into the English as:

"unnatural and abnormal" (Amplified Bible)

"contrary to nature" (English Standard Version)

"against nature" (King James Version, Rheims New Testament)

"sin with each other" (Living Bible)

"unnatural" (New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version)

"immoral, unnatural drives" (The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English) These do not seem to be an accurate translations. They may demonstrate prejudice on the part of the translators. "Unnatural" implies that the act is something that is to be morally condemned. M. Nissinen defines "para physin" as:

"Deviating from the ordinary order either in a good or a bad sense, as something that goes beyond the ordinary realm of experience." 3
​

The word "unconventional" would have been a more precise word for translators to use. The phrase "Para physin" appears elsewhere in the Bible:
In 1 Corinthians 11:14, Paul uses the phrase to refer to long hair on men as unusual and not ordinary.

In Romans 11:24, Paul used it to describe God's positive actions to bring Jews and Gentiles together.

About the phrase "just reward:" Romans 1:27 refers to the idolaters receiving a recompense or penalty for "their error which was due." (NKJ, ASV, etc). This appears to be a reference to the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) which was epidemic among such Pagan fertility cults at the time. The general availability of condoms would only occurr millennia in the future from Paul's era.

So, it seems that we can interpret that passage as referring to people who are taking part in religious fertility rituals that involve sexual practices - wild, frenzied orgies, if you will

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Lets look at the context:

The context in which Verses 26 & 27 appear:

It is important to analyze the preamble to the verses quoted above:
Romans 1:7 says that Paul is writing his epistle "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints...": That is, his letter is written to all of the Christians in Rome. Recipients of his letters would be submerged in the Roman culture, where homosexual behavior was both widespread and acceptable by society.

Romans 1 is concerned with "Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous religious worship and rituals." 2 This is not often mentioned today. Rather, verses 26 and 27 are broken out of the longer passage and cited by themselves to condemn same-sex behavior. Verses 21 to 28 include the following topics:
Verses 21-23: The people had once been Christians. But they had fallen away from the faith, and returned to Paganism. They made images of Pagan gods in the form of men, birds, animals and reptiles for their religious rituals. The latter were probably held in Pagan temples.

Verse 24: Next, they engaged in heterosexual orgies with each other as part of these pagan fertility rituals.

Verse 25: Next, they worshipped the images that they had made, instead of God, the creator. Paul is specifically condemning idol worship here.

Verse 26: Because of these forbidden practices, God intervened in these fertility sex-rituals and changed the people's behavior so that women started to engage in sexual activities with other women.

Verse 27: describes how God had the men also engage in same-sex ritual activities. They (presumably both the men and women) were then punished in some way for their error.

Verse 28: Again, because they did not acknowledge God, then He "gave them up" to many different unethical activities and attitudes: evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, etc.

Possible conclusions:

Conclusions:

As in virtually all other "hot" religious topics, religious conservatives and liberals take opposite views on this and the other "clobber" passages in the Bible that are often regarded as referring to homosexuality:
Conservative view: The assertion of Bennett Sims, the former Episcopal bishop of Atlanta, is a good example of a viewpoint that is held by many conservative Christians. He believes that these verses have done more to form Christians' negative opinion of homosexuality than any other single passage in the Bible. He writes:

"For most of us who seriously honor Scripture these verses still stand as the capital New Testament text that unequivocally prohibits homosexual behavior. More prohibitively, this text has been taken to mean that even a same-sex inclination is reprehensible, so that a type of humanity known as 'homosexual' has steadily become the object of contempt and discrimination." 1


​

Views by others: Many religious liberals, secularists, homosexuals, and others view this passage as an attack on heterosexual persons who were formerly Christians, who reverted to Paganism, and who engaged in ritual sexual behavior as a part of their newly adopted Pagan services. During these rituals, the Pagans were whipped into such a state of sexual frenzy that they went against their basic heterosexual nature and started engaging in sexual behavior with members of the same sex. Paul condemns such behavior. He concludes that Pagan worship will inevitably leads to other negative behavior:

"...unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, [and] unmerciful."
​

The beliefs that persons of other religions are all morally corrupt and that followers of one's own religion behave on a much higher moral plane was common in Paul's time. The same assertions have been made throughout history. Yet, modern-day studies indicate that followers of no one religion have a monopoly on good behavior. We are unaware of any religion, all of whose members exhibit consistently immoral behavior.

The passage deals with immoral behavior among heterosexuals who have converted from Christianity to Paganism and engaged in behavior which is against their nature. There is no real connection between:
Former Christians in the first century CE who have returned to Paganism and engaged in sexual orgies, and
Persons with a homosexual orientation who have entered into a loving, committed relationship or same-sex marriage and who may members of a Christian denomination, members of another religion, or persons with no religious affiliation.
Having lived in a pre-scientific era, Paul would not have had access to the research in human sexuality which started in the late 19th century and which only became widespread in the latter half of the 20th century. He would have been unaware of the concept of sexual orientation.

Introduction to homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27


This article also covers the cultural setting of those passages: Romans 1 describes ancient shrine prostitution, not modern homosexuals.

Interpretations by theologians and others: Alternate interpretation of Romans 1 and 2

So, as we can see, those passages do not clearly condemn homosexual people and their sexuality in general, when you put them in their proper context and pay heed to the original languages and the cultures they were written in.

So I do not see any reason why a person could not be an LGBT person and also a practicing Christian.

 

[JayJayDee]

It is obvious that you have an agenda here SF. You need these verses to say something different so that scripture is not condemning you. I understand your need to do that, but it is not the only view.

See Does the Greek word malakos refer to homosexual acts? | Christian Studies

There is no getting away from the homosexual role of the "effeminate one".

So, as we can see, those passages do not clearly condemn homosexual people and their sexuality in general, when you put them in their proper context and pay heed to the original languages and the cultures they were written in.

So I do not see any reason why a person could not be an LGBT person and also a practicing Christian.

Can I just ask you.....for what purpose did God create sex? What role does sex play outside of legal marriage? What was God's law respecting the use of one's sexual organs? Is its primary purpose to produce pleasure with the added bonus (or imposition) of pregnancy in heterosexual couples?

Or does the Bible portray God's gift of sex for the production of children in a God ordained marriage which he made pleasurable for a man and his wife to ensure the production of the next generation? The pleasure was the bonus, not the primary purpose. What higher purpose does it serve in homosexual couples?

Gays and lesbians cannot enter into scriptural marriage. Therefore their sexual activity is regarded by God as fornication. Sexual sin was very serious in Israel. God's law was specific....fornicators and adulterers were put to death. (Ex 20:22; Num 25:1, 9; 1 Cor 10:8)

One of the reasons I believe that female homosexual activity is not mentioned in the Bible is that for women, the sacred "seed" of life is not deposited in the body's sewerage outlet, or other places for which it was not designed. If you wonder why God would deem this an "abomination"....there you have it. Semen is meant to transmit life, not to be used in such a degraded or disrespectful way.

I am sorry for those who are trying to justify their activities by misapplying scripture, but the scriptures themselves are very clear about how God views unnatural and unlawful sexual activity. Unnatural is referring to any sexual act that is outside of God's ordained marriage arrangement. This is what I believe.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Paul goes on to say..."that is what some of you were"......past tense. Some needed help to change their lifestyle to one that was acceptable to a God.

Christians often have had to wage a day-to-day struggle against wrong desires. Such ones thus serve God despite having a figurative “thorn in the flesh.” (2 Corinthians 12:7) As long as they continue to battle wrong inclinations and maintain Christian conduct, God views them as faithful servants and as clean in his eyes, despite their "orientation".

Those who have proven faithful to death will be assured of their reward. But those who know what is right and yet deliberately fail to do it, will have no such assurance. You are right when you say that God judges us all individually, but we can be certain that he will never approve of someone who is deliberately wicked or who looks for ways to justify errant behaviors.

Those who want to satisfy their present desires by breaking the laws of God, will not inherit the kingdom. Do you think that God is unjust? Is he asking too much?

Thanks for you answer. It's not a matter of finding God unjust. Given his superiority I'm not entitled to judge him, and since I'm imperfect and he's perfect I'm sure I don't see things the same way he does.

My question was not about gay people, I only mentioned that as an example. My point is putting all people in the same box independently of their level of sin.

We are all imperfect but we have to fight with ourselves to avoid committing sins, but since we are imperfect, committing sins is unavoidable.

Imagine this: in an airplane you have:
- a nursing student who lives with her boyfriend and stopped believing in marriage after her mother's third divorce.
- a pedophile looking for his next victim. He likes girls younger than 15 and so far has been smart enough to avoid being caught.
- a plumber who works really hard to support his widowed mother and send his little sister to school; every saturday night he gets drunk with a few friends and sometimes hooks up with a girl.
-a banker on his way to an offshore where he keeps the money he's been stealing for years (some of his victims lost everything they had)

The plane crashes and they all die without repenting of their sins. Since none of them was obedient to God, none enters the Kingdom. Although their sins are all different and with very different consequences, in the end it doesn't matter. It's like they were all the same, they deliberately sinned therefore they all have the same reward. That's what I don't understand.

Maybe I just like to see the good in people but I like to think that God is kind enough to see what each one has inside instead of focusing exclusively on our sins.

 

[SkylarHunter]

It has nothing to do with gay people as we know them today. It's a mistranslation.

Read here: Malakoi is NEVER used in the Bible to mean gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans.

Did you convert? I was under the impression you were a satanist not long ago.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is obvious that you have an agenda here SF.

Oh, and your intentions are pure, right? Bigotry and being judgmental is such a pure intention, huh?

You need these verses to say something different so that scripture is not condemning you. I understand your need to do that, but it is not the only view.

See Does the Greek word malakos refer to homosexual acts? | Christian Studies

I already pointed out that it means "effeminate". That was how it was understood in the ancient world. You are trying to stretch it and make it mean something else.

There is no getting away from the homosexual role of the "effeminate one".

The word had nothing to do with homosexuality, as I've already pointed out.

I am sorry for those who are trying to justify their activities by misapplying scripture, but the scriptures themselves are very clear about how God views unnatural and unlawful sexual activity. Unnatural is referring to any sexual act that is outside of God's ordained marriage arrangement. This is what I believe.

Obviously that is not true, as I've already pointed out.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Also, JayJayDee, you seem to be more into the OT than you are into Jesus' teachings in the Gospels. He rebuked the death penalty for people seen as sinners. I find it telling that I rarely see you quoting Jesus and instead focus on the OT or Paul's writings.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is obvious that you have an agenda here SF. You need these verses to say something different so that scripture is not condemning you.

I was thinking the opposite, since you represent the Watchtower Society here. You have an entire system of interdependent beliefs all of which depend upon particular choices about how to view each and every scripture verse in the NT. Plus you would be outcast if you rejected any of the teachings, especially if you rejected the authority of the society.

My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

The simplest answer is that murder is the worst mistake (sin). Second to that is anything that harms another person, and this comes from the reasoning that people are made in the 'Image of God' which is to say that people are the most important things in existence. There is some disagreement about what Paul means in his letters and also about what authority he has, but having sex is not really very important on the scale of importance. Idolatry for example is more important than sexual errors, though it is sometimes symbolized as prostitution of the body of Christ (where prostitution is something looked down upon). You have to look at the context sometimes to know if Paul is talking about sex or idolatry. Additionally its not clear whether the Christian way of life is to reject Jewish living or not, based on reading these ancient sources. Paul seems conflicted, sometimes upholding the law, sometimes saying it is supplanted. In this passage he appears to uphold the stipulation of obedience to Jewish law, yet StFrank has a point in that he isn't actually talking about homosexuality here.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It has nothing to do with gay people as we know them today. It's a mistranslation.

Read here: Malakoi is NEVER used in the Bible to mean gay, lesbian, bisexual or trans.

I agree.:yes:

 

[Pegg]

My question is for Christians only.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it says "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I don't understand why a gay, a thief and a swindler would merit the same punishment (in this case not entering God's kingdom). I'm not defending anyone, but it seems to me that homosexuality doesn't cause harm to others, while greed many times leads to dishonesty and a swindler is clearly dishonest and taking advantage of other people for his own gain.

I always had this idea that God will apply justice according to the sin committed by each person, but if the sins are not all the same and the consequences vary a lot, how come they all get rewarded the same way?

It makes me wonder if a thieve and a murderer will get the same punishment. Both are wrong, but one is a lot serious than other. Do all sinners have the same value to God? Doesn't he look at how serious someone's actions are rather than punishing everyone the same way?

it comes down to what 'sin' (any kind of sin) represents.

Really, it represents our defiance of Gods right to determine what is right and what is wrong.

It is no different to someone driving 5kmph over the speed limit and being pulled up by the police and issued with a fine, then the same police offer pulling up a person driving 50kmph over the speed limit and issuing the same fine.

It would seem unfair to give a fine to the person who was just 5km over the limit seeing its such a small thing. But its the fact that you were over the speed limit and not being obedient to the road laws.

It doesnt matter to the police that it was only a small number... it was still an act of defiance of the speed limit and therefore merits disciplinary action.


When we likewise defy Gods laws, we are being 'defiant' and for that defiance, we merit disciplinary action.

 

[JayJayDee]

Oh, and your intentions are pure, right? Bigotry and being judgmental is such a pure intention, huh?

There is no bigotry SF. I hold no ill will towards you or anyone else.

We are told in the Bible to 'hate what God hates'. (Amos 5:15) He does not hate the sinner but hates the sin. Sexual sin was addressed extensively in the law God gave to Israel. He is a God who does not change. His standards never alter. Where do you get the idea that homosexuality is somehow now acceptable among Christians? Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?

"In the same manner, Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." (Jude 7)

I already pointed out that it means "effeminate". That was how it was understood in the ancient world. You are trying to stretch it and make it mean something else.

The link I gave you clearly shows the homosexual role of "the effeminate one". How many gay and lesbian couples are not sexually active? If they are not "married" in God's eyes, then they are committing fornication. Jesus said, "Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” This is talking about a heterosexual, legally married couple." (Matt 19:3-6)
How can you read that any other way?

The word had nothing to do with homosexuality, as I've already pointed out.

I know that is what you want to believe, but it is not what God's word says.

If you are mistaken, and homosexual activity or illicit sexual conduct of any sort, will lead to God's judgment, then is it not an act of kindness to warn you about such an outcome? Would you rather hear it from fellow humans, or from God as he asks you to account for your actions?

Obviously that is not true, as I've already pointed out.

You are mistaken. There is no allowance for fornication, either homosexual or heterosexual in the Bible. All sexual sin carries a heavy penalty.

The apostle Paul wrote: "Deaden, therefore, your body members that are on the earth as respects sexual immorality, uncleanness, uncontrolled sexual passion, hurtful desire, and greediness, which is idolatry." (Col 3:5)

Any sexually immoral conduct puts one at odds with the Creator. His word could not be more clear about that. We must raise our conduct to God's standards because he will never lower his to suit us. Those are the facts. :sorry1:

 

[kashmir]

It isn't even a question on what the bible says about homosexuality, fornication, and all sexually immoral acts as them all being sins that one will be held accountable with God.

However, it's between said persons and God.
If even said God exists that is.

 

[JayJayDee]

I was thinking the opposite, since you represent the Watchtower Society here. You have an entire system of interdependent beliefs all of which depend upon particular choices about how to view each and every scripture verse in the NT. Plus you would be outcast if you rejected any of the teachings, especially if you rejected the authority of the society.

If I may just correct a couple of things here Brick.

First of all, I am not representing the Watchtower Society here at all. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower Society is a Bible Society, used by Jehovah's Witnesses to print and distribute large volumes of literature all over the world. It is a printing facility.

We have carefully examined the scriptures and we know what they teach about God, his Christ and the coming of his kingdom. We have a unity of belief that is not found in the fractured churches of Christendom. (1 Cor 1:10)

We have no reason to question our very carefully studied beliefs. We knew what they were when we decided to become Witnesses of Jehovah. Children born to Witness parents are free to choose their own course when they become of age.
No one is a Witness who does not wish to be. If we disagreed with the teachings, we would not have become Witnesses in the first place.

The Watchtower Society has no 'authority' over any of us. It is the Bible as the word of God that dictates our beliefs and our conduct. Jesus is the head of our brotherhood.

If Jesus gave his disciples the commission to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" then where are the churches of Christendom fulfilling that commission? (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)

The simplest answer is that murder is the worst mistake (sin)......

There is some disagreement about what Paul means in his letters and also about what authority he has, but having sex is not really very important on the scale of importance.

I disagree. As an apostle chosen by Christ, he had all the authority he needed to write what the Holy Spirit directed him to record. (2 Tim 3:16)

Sexual sin was still a very important topic of discussion by NT writers. (Col 3:5; 2 Pet 2:9, 10; Mark 7:21-23)

Paul also wrote...."But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and the sexually immoral and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death.”

I don't think we are left in any doubt about how God feels about these things....do you?

Idolatry for example is more important than sexual errors, though it is sometimes symbolized as prostitution of the body of Christ (where prostitution is something looked down upon). You have to look at the context sometimes to know if Paul is talking about sex or idolatry. Additionally its not clear whether the Christian way of life is to reject Jewish living or not, based on reading these ancient sources. Paul seems conflicted, sometimes upholding the law, sometimes saying it is supplanted. In this passage he appears to uphold the stipulation of obedience to Jewish law, yet StFrank has a point in that he isn't actually talking about homosexuality here.

On the contrary, Paul is clear and unequivocal in his condemnation of sexual sin.
He is equally vocal about idolatry. All sin is serious but some sins carried the death penalty. The law was specific about what penalties applied to which sins.

Jesus did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. He was sent exclusively to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel". So it was to those Jews who had lost their way through bad shepherding that Jesus was sent, initially. Paul upheld all the teachings of his master and unlike his fellow apostles, he was an educated man who was used in a mighty way to preach to people of the nations, as well as to his fellow countrymen. He contributed more to NT scripture than any other writer.
He is merely repeating what the law in Leviticus had stated all along. Homosexual activity has always been a sin to the Creator for all the reasons already stated.