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Sola scriptura

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Sola scriptura (Latin by Scripture alone) is one of five important slogans of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It meant that Scripture is the Church's only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines. The intention of the Reformation was to correct the Catholic Church by appeal to the uniqueness of the Bible's authority, and to reject Christian tradition as a source of original authority alongside the Bible or in addition to the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

What are your thoughts on the validity of this doctrine?
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Thanks for the great article, Scott! I was actually just about to go and look that up!

SOGFPP said:
that Scripture is the Church's only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines.
My only thought on the validity of the doctrine would be the one that's probably too popular already, that, as human beings, the amount of ways we could interpret Scripture correctly is endless. (And the amount of ways we could interpret Scripture wrongly is... endlessly endless?)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
FeathersinHair said:
the amount of ways we could interpret Scripture correctly is endless. (And the amount of ways we could interpret Scripture wrongly is... endlessly endless?)
My thoughts exactly.... and the fact that doctrine of sola scriptura is not even in the Bible is just funny to me!

Peace
 

chuck010342

Active Member
Scripture is the holy word of God. I think it goes without saying that Sola Scriptura should be held by anybody within the christian faith.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Nice job chuck.... I always love a debator that uses "it goes without saying".... very well written defense of your position.:rolleyes:

Now, why you're wrong:
1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible
2. The "Word of God" Refers to Oral Teaching Also
"Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).
"When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God" (1 Thess. 2:13)
etc etc....
3. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions
For example:In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based "on Moses’ seat," but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of "teaching succession" from Moses on down.
4. "Proof Text"????
I am sure that you'll pull out "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16–17).
This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14).
5. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding
"If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed" (2 Thess. 3:14).
"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).
6. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position

The Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are "minor" and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the "three-legged stool": Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

www.catholic.com
 
chuck010342 said:
Scripture is the holy word of God. I think it goes without saying that Sola Scriptura should be held by anybody within the christian faith.
The Bible should hold a high place in a Christian's life, but Scripture alone is not enough. Even to understand the Bible, we need outside assistance.
 

Fluffy

A fool
Isn't it impossible to follow the doctrine of sola scriptura since we cannot prevent ourselves from forming subjective conclusions based upon scripture and so we will always be making an authority out of our own minds, effectivly, alongside the Bible.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Fluffy said:
Isn't it impossible to follow the doctrine of sola scriptura since we cannot prevent ourselves from forming subjective conclusions based upon scripture and so we will always be making an authority out of our own minds, effectivly, alongside the Bible.

Yes, it is impossible. We will always bring with us foreign assumptions when we read the Bible, and we will always read those assumptions in. It's natural, and we can only avoid it by knowing what the correct assumptions are...but then we have the problem of "how do we know?" It's not like we can pry open the skull of the authors. Any interpretation falls prey to this. It doesn't matter whether it's a scholar, theologian, layman, clergyman, monk, someone from another religion, whatever. We all do it.

Obviously, some are better than others, but the clergyman tries to preserve what he was taught. The layman often simply reads his assumptions into the Bible (It is funny how godly worship services here in America seem often to represent popular culture more than anything). The scholar tries to reconstruct what he thinks the assumptions were from very sketchy evidence. In all cases, the book often becomes a football for "What I think" when it is the sole authority.

I think you are dead on ;).
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Scott,

I see your claims and raise you one :).

There's another problem with Sola Scriptura. It separates the Bible from Tradition in an effort to make it superior. I think this is, at least in part, the result of some of the schizo nature in Protestantism. While you know it, for the sake of others, the Bible was formed in the following stages (NT here):

1). The books were written.
2). People ascribed authority and importance to them, so they are handed down from one generation to the next (tradition here).
3). They then began to assemble some books together as more important to others, largely in response to heterodox ideas.
4). These assemblies were preserved and narrowed over time, and some books were rejected under the very same authority that had preserved them earlier (the traditional POV on their authority and holiness).
5). Finally the final form of the NT came about, because the process of traditional emphasis and preservation eliminated all the other contenders.
6). These books are then traditionally considered important, and they are passed down from generation to generation. Why do we think they are holy and God's word? Because our predecessors told us to. It is traditional.

As a result of this, those who hold Sola Scriptura set themselves up in a position where if they separate the Bible and tradition, then Tradition is indisputably superior. Without it, there would be no Bible, but there could be Tradition without the Bible. Since the Bible depends on Tradition, while Tradition does not the Bible, then it can only turn out that way if we think about it.

This pressure is unresolvable from a Protestant perspective, and I think it is partially responsible for the extremeties in it. In the end, Sola Scriptura destroys the authority of the Bible if we take it seriously.
 

chuck010342

Active Member
fragmentsofdreams said:
The Bible should hold a high place in a Christian's life, but Scripture alone is not enough.
why not? and says who?


fragmentsofdreams said:
Even to understand the Bible, we need outside assistance.

we do? perhaps you do but not me
 

chuck010342

Active Member
SOGFPP said:
Nice job chuck.... I always love a debator that uses "it goes without saying".... very well written defense of your position.:rolleyes:

I could write the philosophicals psychologial apologetic defense of my position but this way is much easier.

sofpp said:
Now, why you're wrong:

I wish I had a quater for everytime I heard that.

sogfpp said:
1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible

Perhaps so perhaps not but I belive that it is implied.

SOGFPP said:
2. The "Word of God" Refers to Oral Teaching Also
"Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

have not read? when Jesus was in dialouge with the Pharasiees? when he talked about there traditions?

"
SOGFPP said:
When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God" (1 Thess. 2:13)

This quote supports sola scripture
etc etc....
SOGFPP said:
3. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions
For example:In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based "on Moses’ seat," but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of "teaching succession" from Moses on down.

Jesus didn't support them. Jesus said, "They like to seat at moses seat BUT DON"T DO AS THEY DO"

SOGFPP said:
4. "Proof Text"????
I am sure that you'll pull out "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16–17).
This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14).

SOGFPP said:
Paul makes reference to oral tradition but does he say to follow it?
5. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding
"If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed" (2 Thess. 3:14).
"Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).
6. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position

Remeber who Paul is speaking to

SOGFPP said:
The Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are "minor" and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion.

Amen

SOGFPP said:
Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned.

Which is why the Catholic Church burned so many at the stake. Remember?
Different denominations are not bad, we are worship the same God, Same Jesus, Same Holy Spirit. Are you saying all divisions are condemned then what would you say about the trintiy?

SOGFPP said:
The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the "three-legged stool": Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

www.catholic.com

The only thing you need to arrive at truth is GOD
 

chuck010342

Active Member
Fluffy said:
Isn't it impossible to follow the doctrine of sola scriptura since we cannot prevent ourselves from forming subjective conclusions based upon scripture and so we will always be making an authority out of our own minds, effectivly, alongside the Bible.

umm no, you trust your own mind to reveal truth? "Truth is what God chooses to reveal" like Jesus says.
 

chuck010342

Active Member
No*s said:
Scott,

I see your claims and raise you one :).

There's another problem with Sola Scriptura. It separates the Bible from Tradition in an effort to make it superior. I think this is, at least in part, the result of some of the schizo nature in Protestantism. While you know it, for the sake of others, the Bible was formed in the following stages (NT here):

1). The books were written.
2). People ascribed authority and importance to them, so they are handed down from one generation to the next (tradition here).
3). They then began to assemble some books together as more important to others, largely in response to heterodox ideas.
4). These assemblies were preserved and narrowed over time, and some books were rejected under the very same authority that had preserved them earlier (the traditional POV on their authority and holiness).
5). Finally the final form of the NT came about, because the process of traditional emphasis and preservation eliminated all the other contenders.
6). These books are then traditionally considered important, and they are passed down from generation to generation. Why do we think they are holy and God's word? Because our predecessors told us to. It is traditional.

As a result of this, those who hold Sola Scriptura set themselves up in a position where if they separate the Bible and tradition, then Tradition is indisputably superior. Without it, there would be no Bible, but there could be Tradition without the Bible. Since the Bible depends on Tradition, while Tradition does not the Bible, then it can only turn out that way if we think about it.

This pressure is unresolvable from a Protestant perspective, and I think it is partially responsible for the extremeties in it. In the end, Sola Scriptura destroys the authority of the Bible if we take it seriously.

Your forgetting the fact that the Holy Spirit is guiding all of this so that we know that the Bible is true
 
chuck010342 said:
why not? and says who?




we do? perhaps you do but not me
Most obviously, one needs help to understand the language, either by learning Greek and Hebrew or using a translation. Then, one needs to learn more about the history and cultures of the ancient Near East to better understand what is going on. The assistance of other Christians is vital to being able to learn from their mistakes and avoid the problems that they ran into.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
chuck010342 said:
Your forgetting the fact that the Holy Spirit is guiding all of this so that we know that the Bible is true

The Holy Spirit's working through Tradition kind of settles the point in my favor. Why didn't He inspire the authors to collect it? Why did He use Tradition? If it's good enough for the Spirit, it's good enough for me ;).
 

chuck010342

Active Member
fragmentsofdreams said:
Could you cite that?

You know I could of sworn that the phrase "Truth is what God chooses to reveal" came from scripture but when I searched for it I couldn't find it in those exact words and for that I apologize but the idea is in scripture.

John 17: 17

17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

God reveals truth thru his word as the above passage states. So Truth is indeed what God reveals.
 

chuck010342

Active Member
fragmentsofdreams said:
How do you know that the Holy Spirit is guiding all of this?

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, .

Scripture came from God.
 

chuck010342

Active Member
No*s said:
The Holy Spirit's working through Tradition kind of settles the point in my favor. Why didn't He inspire the authors to collect it? Why did He use Tradition? If it's good enough for the Spirit, it's good enough for me ;).

God used the tradition to make the scripture hence the scipture comes from God not from the traditions of Men. How do we know that Men used the right traditions to form scripture?
 
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