Sikhi, other religions & Bhagats

[Satnaam]

Treks Phenji, why not shift our discussion to this seperate thread?

3) Hajj, Ramadan etc are essential parts of Islam but these are rejected outright in Gurmat. This in fact shows that Islam is not the way to reach Waheguru according to Sikhi. The page you talk about is two things:
3.1. We all know that once we learn things it is difficult to de-learn. So the Gurus always spoke in metaphors and also used vocabulary of the persons to explain them. When talking to farmers they explained in agricultural terms (the field became the human body, seeds were good actions and it was watered with Naam - this Shabad can be found on panna 23, SGGS). Besides that several religious concepts of other religions were redefined to explain them. Hindu term Jati means celibacy but in Gurbani it became living the life of a householder BUT in the same time having self control (over your senses). Exactly in the same way, the Gurus saw that there were people reciting 5 Namaz but yet indulging in immoral activities, in a way these 5 prayers proved to be futile. Guru ji then said why not replace these prayers with virtues, atleast they will make you a better person instead of parroting verses over and over again without becoming a better person. Those tuks are Islam Namaz redefined and not an encouragement to recite prayers 5 times.
3.2. Several lines have been misstranslated there. 'Prophet Muhammad' is nowhere mentioned in the Gurmukhi but appears in the English translation somehow.

4) Theres two things there, the Bhagats belonged to either Hinduism or Islam and secondly they lived when Sikhi did not exist yet.
4.1. Lets take one at a time. Was Bhagat Naamdev Ji really a Hindu? Lets see his writings for that, Panna 875 of SGGS is of importance to this discussion:

O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3|| The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. The Gyani is wiser than both of them. The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. Naam Dev serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque.

He may have been born in a Hindu household, much like Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but those lines clearly show he rejected Hinduism.

4.2. Did he really live before Sikhi existed? Thats a misconception created by some historians who did not know where to place the Bhagats exactly, so their date of births are usually messed. If the Bhagats lived before Sikhi then they could not have written in Gurmukhi and there is no guarantee that there writings were not corrupted by the time the Gurus came. Others than that, the language of the Bhagats show influence of the Gurus with words such as Gurmat being used often.

Now there are also historical proofs that the Bhagats were contemponaries of the Gurus and met Guru Ji. One such Gurdwara exists in a town called Ayodhya (where several Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Ji).

The nephew of Guru Arjan Dev Ji also wrote a Janamsakhi which confirms that Bhagats (Bhagat Naamdev is mentioned) went to meet Guru Nanak Sahib on Wahegurus Hukam.

This will take some time to grasp because alot of misconceptions do exist and its much different to what is often said or written... I also used to believe the things you stated for years until I delved even deeper into Sikhi.

 

[GURSIKH]

Satnaam ji ,

let me say i found your views bit narrow , shallow , why are you in rejecting others mode , Sikhi teaches us to look for faults within instead of wasting time in belittle others
[SIZE=+1]ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਚੰਗੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]हम नही चंगे बुरा नही कोइ ॥[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Ham nahī cẖange burā nahī ko▫e.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]I am not good; no one is bad.[/SIZE]



,Sikhi is for Unity of Mankind ,not for further divisions . For Guru there is no difference bw Hindu Puja AND Muslim Namaaj all goes to same God .

ਦੇਹਰਾ ਮਸੀਤ ਸੋਈ ਪੂਜਾ ਔ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਓਈ ਮਾਨਸ ਸਬੈ ਏਕ ਪੈ ਅਨੇਕ ਕੋ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਉ ਹੈ ॥
देहरा मसीत सोई पूजा औ निवाज ओई मानस सबै एक पै अनेक को भ्रमाउ है ॥
The temple and the mosque are the same, there is no difference between a Hindu worship and Muslim prayer; all the human beings are the same, but the illusion is of various types.

and do you consider janamsakhis as authentic source ? and all Historians as baseless ? show me single historic evidence that shows Guru Nanak ji was Samkaali of Bhagat Namdev ji .



blessings

 

[Satnaam]

I suggest you to read history before calling me shallow or narrow minded, my dear brother.

If you read my post I said Guru Arjan Dev Jis nephew did write a Janamsakhi which says Guru Nanak Sahib and Bhagat Naamdev were Samkalis (contemponaries). You can visit Ayodhya town and see GURDWARA GURU KA BAGH where the Bhagats (including Bhagat Naamdev) met Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Read Gyani Gurdit Singhs book where he proves beyond doubt that Bhagats were contemponaries of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and met him. Bhagat Kabir met Guru Nanak Sahib on many occasions, one such place is Magaar in Uttar Pradesh (India) where a Gurdwara is being constructed now.

Guru Granth Sahib says idol worship, Hajj, Ramadan are invalid so basically those religions are invalid too.

Do not quote Dasam Granth here, lets discuss only with Guru Granth Sahib tuks, right?

 

[Satnaam]

I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.
(M5, 1136, Guru Granth Sahib)

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.
(Bhagat Kabeer, 477, Guru Granth Sahib)

I have stopped fasting on Ekadashi; why should I bother to go on Teerath to sacred shrines?

(Bhagat Naamdev, 718, Guru Granth Sahib)

O brother, why worship idols of gods and goddesses, what can you ask of them and what can they give to you?
What is the use of washing stones, which themselves drown in water?

(M1, 637, Guru Granth Sahib)

I have searched many Shastars and Simrtis, they do not show the way to God, but contemplation on God is invaluable.

(M5, 264, Guru Granth Sahib)

 

[Satnaam]

There is a difference between criticising individuals and criticising ideologies. We are taught to respect all human beings not all ideologies. I won't respect Nazism, but in the same way I don't respect Islam which teaches to kill infidels, subdue them and the crimes committed by them following in their Prophets footsteps.

Can you call Gurbani shallow and narrowminded if it condemns basics of Islam such as Hajj and Ramadan?

 

[GURSIKH]

satnaam ji

so you have no source to show that Bhagat Naam Dev ji was Contemporary of guru Nanak Dev ji ? (except janamsakhi even that you are unable to produce )


dear the Janam patri /Kundli (Teva ) of Bhagat Naam dev is still preserved in his village Narsi bahamani in Maharastra , i visited that place few years ago .

Namdev was born on Sunday the eleventh day of the light half of the month of Kartik in the Shaka year 1192, A.D. 1270

source Full text of "The Sikh Religion Vol VI"

there are numerous other evidence like his Contemporary Emperor was Tughlak and there is no confusion about Bhagat jis birth date ,All historians are unanimous .

 

[Breathe]

Dear Satnaam jī,


ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
- SGGS jī, ang 1350


ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.
ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.
ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.
ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||
- SGGS jī, ang 141

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥
I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ||4||4||13||
- SGGS jī, ang 479


ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਸੋਈ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ मुसलमाणु सोई मलु खोवै ॥
One who cleanses himself of impurity is a Muslim.
- SGGS jī, ang 662

ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||
- SGGS jī, ang 897

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He administers justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||
- SGGS jī, ang 1136

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕ ॥
Hindus and Muslims have the same One Lord and Master.
- SGGS jī, ang 1158


Just some food for thought.

Your brother. :namaste

 

[Satnaam]

Gursikh, I request you to study Gurmat more deeply.

Janamsakhi by Guru Arjans nephew, his name is Mehervaan Sodhi if you didn't know and this is a quote from his book. I also mentioned Gurdwara Guru Ka Bagh in Ayodhya, have you visited it? Again I doubt you have.

ਤਬ ਅਯੁਧਿਆ ਵਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੈਠਾ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਉ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਕਉ ਆਗਿਆ ਆਈ ਪਾਰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਜਿ, ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਹਦੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਡਾ ਭਗਤ ਹੈ, ਸੁ ਅਯੁਧਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ I ਤੁਮ ਜਾਇਕਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤ ਕਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰ ਪਾਵਹੁ, ਜਿ ਤੁਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਅਧਿਕ ਪਛਾਨਹੁ I ਅਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਰਹੁ I ਮੇਰੀ ਜੋ ਉਸਤਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਨਤਾ ਹੈ I ਤਬ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪਾਰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਾਥ ਸਭਿ ਭਗਤ ਮਿਲੇ I ਮਿਲ ਕਰ ਮਿਲਣ ਆਏ I ਨਾਮਾ, ਜੈਦੇਉ, ਕਬੀਰ, ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ, ਰਵਿਦਾਸ, ਸਧਨਾ, ਧੰਨਾ, ਬੇਣੀ

Exactly the book you mentioned is the cause of confusion. Sikh Religion was written by Max Arthur Macauliffe when? In 20th century, 400 years after Guru Nanak Dev, so how could you use it as a source in a sensible discussion? Give me an older source mentioning Bhagat Naamdev was born before Guru Nanak Dev Ji? I gave you Mehervan Janamsakhi Quote plus Gurdwara so thats two proofs.

What historians are unanimous? New ones? What is their base? Give me base details. Janam patris are forged (just like the fake Patreh of the Gurus, fake handwritings of Guru Gobind Singh made for money by priests as written in our Granths), but a Gurdwara can't be.

 

[Satnaam]

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
- SGGS jī, ang 1350

This is again a wrong translation. Anyone who has knowledge of Gurbani Grammar (Gurbani viakarn) will know this, ਕਹਹੁ has an aunkar as last letter which means it is third person command. ਮਤ behind the verb does not mean 'not' but faith because if it meant not it would be in another order. Gurbani translations by Bhai Randhir Singh confirm this. Besides if we take this translation to be true then it is in DIRECT conflict with other Gurbani quotes (which is impossible for Dhur Ki Bani), so we have to see which Tuk has been wrongly translated (the above one in this case).

Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebs [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery of the Creator.
M 1, 1021, SGGS.

I have searched many Shastars and Simrtis, they do not show the way to God, but contemplation on God is invaluable.
M 5, 265, SGGS

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥
It is difficult to be called a Muslim; if one is truly a Muslim, then he may be called one.
ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥
First, let him savor the religion of the Prophet as sweet; then, let his pride of his possessions be scraped away.
ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥
Becoming a true Muslim, a disciple of the faith of Mohammed, let him put aside the delusion of death and life.
ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥
As he submits to God's Will, and surrenders to the Creator, he is rid of selfishness and conceit.
ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
And when, O Nanak, he is merciful to all beings, only then shall he be called a Muslim. ||1||
- SGGS jī, ang 141

Show me where it says 'Disciple of Prophet Muhammad' in the original Gurmukhi? Where is religion of Prophet mentioned? Can you read Gurmukhi or do you blindly rely on translations, brother? The description of a Muslim is actually Islam REDEFINED according to Gurmat, that is also why Gurbani redefines the 5 prayers of Muslims and substitutes them with virtues.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੋਊ ਸਮਝਾਵਉ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੩॥
I teach both Hindus and Muslims. ||4||4||13||
- SGGS jī, ang 479

The Gurus also taught to atheists, doesn't mean they were right. Anyone, good or bad can be a student, does not show the students religion is right.

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਸੋਈ ਮਲੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥
One who cleanses himself of impurity is a Muslim.
- SGGS jī, ang 662

Muslim here is used in the sense of 'submitter to God' not follower of Islam. Because Gurbani rejects Hajj Ramadan Circumcision 5 Namaz etc so Islam is also rejected BUT a Muslim is someone who submits to God.

ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||
- SGGS jī, ang 897

The Gurmukhi does not say Muslim god or Hindu god. It just says Allah and Paarbrahm is the same. Allah is a word for God that predates Islam, so this does not mean that Gurbani is justifying Islam.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਨੇਬੇਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He administers justice to both Hindus and Muslims. ||1||Pause||
- SGGS jī, ang 1136

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਏਕ ॥
Hindus and Muslims have the same One Lord and Master.
- SGGS jī, ang 1158

So? No one is denying that Waheguru created all humanity or all human beings have one God. But the point of discussion here is wheter their religions are True. Ofcourse he administers justice to both Hindus Muslims but also Buddhists Atheists, that is Hukam it is the same for all, everyone is subject to birth death BUT doesn't mean their actions or religions are right.

Show me where Gurbani says that following the Quran or other scriptures can lead you to God? Much of your problems are caused because you rely on internet translations of Gurbani which often put things out of context and write words that are not even there.

What are you (boths) replies to the condemnation of Hajj, Ramadan, Circumcision, Quran in Gurbani quotes given? How still could Islam lead to God?

There is a difference between saying that Hindus Muslims are equal and there is only One god for them (or anyone) and in saying that their religions lead to God (while Gurbani clearly states otherwise).

 

[GURSIKH]

Gursikh, I request you to study Gurmat more deeply.

thanks for your request satnaam ji and i will try to learn

Janamsakhi by Guru Arjans nephew, his name is Mehervaan Sodhi if you didn't know and this is a quote from his book.
ਤਬ ਅਯੁਧਿਆ ਵਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੈਠਾ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਉ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਕਉ ਆਗਿਆ ਆਈ ਪਾਰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਜਿ, ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਹਦੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਬਡਾ ਭਗਤ ਹੈ, ਸੁ ਅਯੁਧਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ I ਤੁਮ ਜਾਇਕਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਗਤ ਕਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕਰ ਪਾਵਹੁ, ਜਿ ਤੁਮ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਅਧਿਕ ਪਛਾਨਹੁ I ਅਰ ਮੇਰੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਰਹੁ I ਮੇਰੀ ਜੋ ਉਸਤਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਾਨਤਾ ਹੈ I ਤਬ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪਾਰ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਸਾਥ ਸਭਿ ਭਗਤ ਮਿਲੇ I ਮਿਲ ਕਰ ਮਿਲਣ ਆਏ I ਨਾਮਾ, ਜੈਦੇਉ, ਕਬੀਰ, ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ, ਰਵਿਦਾਸ, ਸਧਨਾ, ਧੰਨਾ, ਬੇਣੀ

can you kindly provide any link to this book of Janamsakhi ?

Exactly the book you mentioned is the cause of confusion. Sikh Religion was written by Max Arthur Macauliffe when?

its not only Macauliffe even all Marathi sources are stating Bhagat jis birth in1270 .

What historians are unanimous? New ones? What is their base? Give me base details. Janam patris are forged (just like the fake Patreh of the Gurus, fake handwritings of Guru Gobind Singh made for money by priests as written in our Granths), but a Gurdwara can't be

i know many Gurudwaras built for the same purpose



satnaam ji ,you wanna prove before Guru Nanak sahib ji no one was Puran (Perfect ) ?

sat nam :namaste:

......

 

[Satnaam]

Brother, why do you limit yourself to internet knowledge or books on internet? Don't mind but if you want to increase your knowledge you will have to get hold of books that are not available on net too. For example I would discourage you against using Srigranth.org as your only source for translations, it is wrong at many places and even by clicking on Prof Sahib Singh teeka (Punjabi) on the site you can see that many english translated verses are in direct contradiction with Prof Sahib Singhs translation (not that Profs is unflawed).

Secondly, the date of births of many Bhagats are disputed. Some place Bhagat Kabirs birth in 1398 others in 1440. We have to see our own Granths, and the verses written by Bhagats (influence of Gurus) to see whats true and what not. Therefore I'd suggest you to read Gyani Gurdit Singhs book which has ALL historical proofs and proofs from Bhagat writings.

According to Marathi Granths Guru Nanak Ji and Bhagat Naamdev did meet, you can read Naamdev Jivan Charitar and few more granths for that. Secondly we have Punjabi proof in the form of Meherban Janamsakhi, thirdly the said Gurdwara in Ayodhya exists and has a history which tallies with the given account.

I won't answer your question about anyone before Guru Nanak Sahib being perfect or not because that is not part of the discussion. Lets first see if the Bhagats were contemponaries of the Gurus or not.

Please comment on what I say and stop adding new points of discussion till one is not resolved. Dhanvaad.

 

[Satnaam]

show me single historic evidence that shows Guru Nanak ji was Samkaali of Bhagat Namdev ji .

GurSikh brother, you asked me this. I showed you several sources. Now tell me what your doubts are.

 

[Treks]

Satnaam ji apologies for the late reply.

3) Hajj, Ramadan etc are essential parts of Islam but these are rejected outright in Gurmat. This in fact shows that Islam is not the way to reach Waheguru according to Sikhi. The page you talk about is two things:

3.1. We all know that once we learn things it is difficult to de-learn. So the Gurus always spoke in metaphors and also used vocabulary of the persons to explain them. When talking to farmers they explained in agricultural terms (the field became the human body, seeds were good actions and it was watered with Naam - this Shabad can be found on panna 23, SGGS). Besides that several religious concepts of other religions were redefined to explain them. Hindu term Jati means celibacy but in Gurbani it became living the life of a householder BUT in the same time having self control (over your senses). Exactly in the same way, the Gurus saw that there were people reciting 5 Namaz but yet indulging in immoral activities, in a way these 5 prayers proved to be futile. Guru ji then said why not replace these prayers with virtues, atleast they will make you a better person instead of parroting verses over and over again without becoming a better person. Those tuks are Islam Namaz redefined and not an encouragement to recite prayers 5 times.

3.2. Several lines have been misstranslated there. 'Prophet Muhammad' is nowhere mentioned in the Gurmukhi but appears in the English translation somehow.

Sikhi is critical of useless elements of other religions (I say that frankly in the Sikhi DIR) and suggests corrections in perception and thinking. This same lens should be used by Sikhs to look at Sikhi. Does Sikhi really measure up against the wisdom in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Were the Guru's really seeking to destroy the other religions and replace them with Sikhi, or were they teaching people how to get rid of their outmoded thinking? Was it right to then build up just another comparable religion?

Thanks for your observation on the tuks which have been mistranslated, I'll have a look at them in more depth.

4) Theres two things there, the Bhagats belonged to either Hinduism or Islam and secondly they lived when Sikhi did not exist yet.
4.1. Lets take one at a time. Was Bhagat Naamdev Ji really a Hindu? Lets see his writings for that, Panna 875 of SGGS is of importance to this discussion:

((snip))

He may have been born in a Hindu household, much like Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but those lines clearly show he rejected Hinduism.

4.2. Did he really live before Sikhi existed? Thats a misconception created by some historians who did not know where to place the Bhagats exactly, so their date of births are usually messed. If the Bhagats lived before Sikhi then they could not have written in Gurmukhi and there is no guarantee that there writings were not corrupted by the time the Gurus came. Others than that, the language of the Bhagats show influence of the Gurus with words such as Gurmat being used often.

Now there are also historical proofs that the Bhagats were contemponaries of the Gurus and met Guru Ji. One such Gurdwara exists in a town called Ayodhya (where several Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Ji).

The nephew of Guru Arjan Dev Ji also wrote a Janamsakhi which confirms that Bhagats (Bhagat Naamdev is mentioned) went to meet Guru Nanak Sahib on Wahegurus Hukam.

This will take some time to grasp because alot of misconceptions do exist and its much different to what is often said or written... I also used to believe the things you stated for years until I delved even deeper into Sikhi.

I don't know enough about this matter to really comment further, sorry. Other members with more learning have done so. I'm grateful for everyone's contributions.

 

[Satnaam]

No problem Just waiting for Gursikh or Breathe to reply with some proofs so this useful discussion can be continued.

 

[Breathe]

This is again a wrong translation. Anyone who has knowledge of Gurbani Grammar (Gurbani viakarn) will know this, ਕਹਹੁ has an aunkar as last letter which means it is third person command.

This does not really make much difference; because all it then says is "He does not say.".

And besides, it is a wrong translation, why are wrong translations so widespread, even being used in gurdwārās, where there are bilingual folk? Where are the 'better' translations?

ਮਤ behind the verb does not mean 'not' but faith because if it meant not it would be in another order.

Well, no, because that's in the English translation. There is nothing saying that it must follow the same word order.

Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji translates it to "Say not that the Vedas and Muslim books are false. False is he, who reflects not on them."

The meaning is the same. Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa Ji's translation is just more... poetic.

Gurbani translations by Bhai Randhir Singh confirm this. Besides if we take this translation to be true then it is in DIRECT conflict with other Gurbani quotes (which is impossible for Dhur Ki Bani), so we have to see which Tuk has been wrongly translated (the above one in this case).

I don't think this is the case.

Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebs [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery of the Creator.
M 1, 1021, SGGS.

I have searched many Shastars and Simrtis, they do not show the way to God, but contemplation on God is invaluable.
M 5, 265, SGGS

This doesn't mean that the texts are false.
It could also, perhaps more likely, mean that there is more to God.

Show me where it says 'Disciple of Prophet Muhammad' in the original Gurmukhi? Where is religion of Prophet mentioned?

It doesn't say "Disciple of the Prophet Muhammad", but it does say "Muslim ḏīn". Dīn. Religion. The Muslim religion.

Can you read Gurmukhi or do you blindly rely on translations, brother? The description of a Muslim is actually Islam REDEFINED according to Gurmat, that is also why Gurbani redefines the 5 prayers of Muslims and substitutes them with virtues.

I can read Gurmukhī script, sister, but I can't speak Sant Bhāṣā or Old Punjabi. I am, however, able to determine quite well when something is not accurate.

The Gurus also taught to atheists, doesn't mean they were right. Anyone, good or bad can be a student, does not show the students religion is right.

Even if you do not believe another student's religion is right (and I think this goes against Gurbāṇ&#299, a Sikh should let his words be kind. Slandering and speaking coldly of a religion is not kind.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖੀਆ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਤਿਨ ਦਇਆ ਪਈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
The Gurmukhs are the happy soul-brides; their minds are filled with kindness.

Muslim here is used in the sense of 'submitter to God' not follower of Islam. Because Gurbani rejects Hajj Ramadan Circumcision 5 Namaz etc so Islam is also rejected BUT a Muslim is someone who submits to God.

I understand that, they are not required, but they work for some people.

The Gurmukhi does not say Muslim god or Hindu god. It just says Allah and Paarbrahm is the same. Allah is a word for God that predates Islam, so this does not mean that Gurbani is justifying Islam.

But it uses terms used by both religions. To show inclusiveness.

What are you (boths) replies to the condemnation of Hajj, Ramadan, Circumcision, Quran in Gurbani quotes given? How still could Islam lead to God?

By bhakti.

 

[Poeticus]

By bhakti.

I don't mean to interrupt, but when you say that Muslims can get closer to God by utilizing "bhakti"...you mean the word in a metaphorical sense, right?

 

[Breathe]

I don't mean to interrupt, but when you say that Muslims can get closer to God by utilizing "bhakti"...you mean the word in a metaphorical sense, right?

Yup.

 

[Satnaam]

Word Kahuh is an order. Just like Japoh (meditate as instruction). Kahuh means declare those Paths wrong. Show me one tuk in Gurbani which has word 'Mat' after a verb and it means 'not'?
Example of word 'Mat' being religion:

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
Rama, Mohammad, eighteen Puranas (Books of the Hindu faith), and Quran say a lot about their own religions but I do not follow any one of them.
Also notice that the word ਮਤ appears at the end. If it meant “do not” it would’ve appeared before the word ਕਹੈਂ and the meanings would’ve been “do not say”.

1. Wrong translations are widespread because of wrongful translations being available widely and other translations are not there in English. Bhai Randhir Singhs translation seem more correct. Every scholar agrees that Gurbani is written according to a set of grammar rules, Viakarn, how can you ignore that?
Both Manmohan Singh and Sant Singh are wrong, and many of their translations are in fact, many of them are confusing and contrasting to accepted translations.

2. 'Perhaps' is what you think, but what is the truth? Gurbani is clearly rejecting the essentials of those religions:

"I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan…I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines….I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers….I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim. My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. (Ang 1136)

"Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny. If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2|| If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman? She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3|| Give up your holy books (Quran and Hadiths), and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly. Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have have been lost in hypocrisy. ||4||8||" (Ang 477)

"The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe, O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety of the heart." (Ang 727)

"I have no quarrel with anyone. I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests." ||1||Pause|| (Ang 1158)

"Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written, I reject; I do not accept any of it. ||3||" (Ang 1159)

"If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong? According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||" (Ang 1349)

"The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan. The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. ||3|| What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque? If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? ||4||" (Ang 1349)

"Kabeer, I was going on a pilgrimage to Mecca, and God met me on the way. He scolded me and asked, ""Who told you that I am only there?""||197|| (Ang 1375)"

3. Deen nowhere refers to Islam in Gurbani, deen refers to Dharam, truth. Show me one place in Gurbani where it says Islam is deen? If Gurbani preached Islamic deen then it would say follow the Quran or do Namaaz but Gurbani doesn't say so, instead it refines the Quran and Namaaz. Muslim deen are not related in the original; "hoe musalim dheen muhaanai maran jeevan kaa bharam chukaavai - Become a true Muslim by following the guidance of truth only. Only then one can be free from the delusion of life and death." Again if Gurbani wanted Muslims to be true Muslims it would tell them to follow Sharia, Quran, do Namaaz but Gurbani says REPLACE your Namaaz with virtues, do not go on Hajj, reject circumcision so how can it in another place say be a good Muslim? In that ligth you have to re-see the wrongful translations of Gurbani because internal contradictions are not possible.

4. You can read Gurmukhi, then I'd suggest you to read Teekas and not rely on translations only. On SriGranth (the website you rely on) click on Prof Sahib Singh teeka and see what he has to say about Namaz, wheter its the Islamic Namaaz or redefined with virtues.

5. Slandering a religion? Is saying 'Hitler was bad' slandering Nazism or Hitler? There is a difference between gossiping, backbiting and stating the truth. Historically Muhammad massacred tribes, kept concubines and I can't respect him as a prophet nor his religion.

6. How does Halal, Jaziya work? How does slaying infidels work for people? How does killing innocents in the name of God be helpful in your journey to realise God?

7. It is to show that both Allah and Paarbrahm are the same God, not Allah - the hater of the non-Muslims or Paarbrahm who doesn't like the Malechas (non-Muslims). All beings have one God BUT using those words for God does not justify those respective religions, it is just to say that there is no point in being divided when there is only one God (not different ones as claimed in those religions, such as Allah the one who punishes infidels etc)

 

[GURSIKH]

GurSikh brother, you asked me this. I showed you several sources. Now tell me what your doubts are.

Sat sri akaal ,Bhai

All biographies of Bhagat Naam dev (sikhi as well as Marathi ) depict Bhagat Namdev ji s birth in 13 century (1270 exactly ) .

Hindu bhagats and poets, and Punjabi officials -



and
i confirmed there is no Gurudwara in Ayodhya dedicated to Meeting BW Guru Nanak and Bhagat Namdev ji .
neither Puratan janam Sakhi nor Bhai Gurdass ji or Suraj Parkaash Granth mention any such meetings
and you know janamsakhi s are not taken as taken as Historic document due to their mythological contents , but even then you are unable to show your quote belong to jamnam sakhi of meharbaan.




Satnaam ji ,

i agree with Od , your teen typo hate is showing sikhi in bad light ,kindly cool down or take it somewhere else .

Sri waheguru ji ki fateh

 

[Satnaam]

You keep saying all biographies, name the source? It is funny that your only source is new books or internet. Go visit Gurdwara Guru Ka Bagh in Ayodhya first?

I quoted exact passage from Mehervan Janamsakhi, please buy the book and see for yourself.

Sri Bharadwaj says based on facts, ancient Marathi Granths such as “Bhaghat Rasaimat Sindhu”, “Naamdev Jeevan Charitar”, says Guru Nanak Mahaprabhu bhagat Nanak Swami and Naam Dev met at Kumar Teerath. That is why Bharadwaj says Bhagat Naamdev’s time period could not have been before Guru Nanak Jee. This opinion of Bharadwaj is based on research on old granths Naam Dev Charitar. In fact Bharadwaj has even written a book Gyanashwar v Gyan Dev in which he sites many sources and comes to the conclusion that Naamdev and Guru Nanak were contemporaries.

Give me one Marathi Granth saying Bhagat Naamdev didn't meet Guru Nanak Sahib.
Get some knowledge before telling me to go on another forum. You haven't been able to give a SINGLE proof besides some websites (great proof by the way). You will google the above books (Marathi granths) and if you don't find them on internet you will say they don't exist. If you want to debate then do it properly otherwise don't bother replying. Gurbani says Moorkhan Naal Na Lujhiai for a reason.