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Shroud of Turin, Photograph of the Resurrection

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by God is love, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    Part one
    The History of the Event

    Following this will be the scientific test results that authenticate shroud.

    History records around 33 A.D, a burial cloth of Jesus the Christ.

    It was sundown when Joseph of Arimathea provided a cloth for the body of Jesus Christ. He had to work quickly because Hebrew law forbade burial after sundown. There wasn't time to wash the body. The body was prepared according to Hebrew custom. The shroud was treated with oils and spices. a cloth was wrapped around the face of Jesus. The body was covered with the shroud.

    Three days after as recorded in New Testement

    "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James and salome, had brought spices that they might come and anoint Him. And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. They said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? When they looked they saw that the stone was rolled away."
    Mark 16:1-4 {in bible}
    " they entered in and found not the body of Lord Jesus. They remembered His words and returned from the sepulchre and told all these things unto the eleven..."
    "their words seemed to them as idle tales and they believed them not"
    Luke 24:3,8-11

    "Peter therefore went forth and that other disciple {John} and came to the sepulchre. So they ran both together and {John} did outrun Peter and came first to the sepulchre. He stooping down and looking in saw the LINEN CLOTHES lying, yet went he not in. Then cometh Simon Peter following him and went into the sepulchre and seeth the LINEN CLOTHES and the napkin that had been about His head, not lying with the linen clothes but wrapped together in a place by itself. Then went in also, John, which came forst to the sepulchre and he saw and believed. For as yet they knew not the scripture that He must rise again from the dead. Then the disciples went away again unto their home."
    John 20:3-10

    "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut, the disciples were assembled...came Jesus and stood in the midst and saith unto them, Peace be unto you."
    John 20:19
    "But they were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. He said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet that it is I, myself, handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. When He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet. While they yet believed not for joy and wondered, He said unto them, Have ye here any meat? They gave Him a piece of broiled fish and of an honeycomb and He took it and did eat before them. He said unto them. These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the Psalms concerning me. Then opened He their understanding that they might understand the scriptures and He said unto them. Thus it is written and thus it behoved Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem. Ye are witnesses of these things."
    Luke 24:36-48

    But Thomas {one of the eleven} was not there

    Part 2 "Doubting Thomas" to follow
     
  2. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    "But Thomas, one of the (eleven} was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord but he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the print of the nails and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe.

    After eight days, again, His disciples were within and Thomas with them then Jesus came, and stood in the midst and said Peace be unto you. Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold my hands and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side and be not faithless but believing.

    Thomas answered and said unto Him, my Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed.
    Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed."
    John 20:24-29

    Part 3 "The Shroud's journey to Turin, the flood and fire"
     
  3. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    The earliest record after the New Testement account was in Odessa Turkey, where it was discovered. It was called the "Mandellion" because it contained the image of Christ on it. Because of the persecution towards Christians at the time, a church hid it in a wall.

    In 525 A.D a flood swept through Odessa. Men were sent from Constantinople to repair city walls. The Shroud was rediscovered in the wall. The Shroud was taken to Constantinople where it was unfolded and displayed. It remained there till the 11th century when there was the crusades.

    In 1204 crusaders discovered the Shroud. It came into the possession of the Tucherney family.

    In 1452 It was sold to the Duke of Savoy.

    On June 11th 1502 it was placed in the St. Chapelle chapel at Chambray.

    In 1532 there was a fire. Miraculously the Shroud was preserved but the edges of the cloth were seared {scorched}. Nuns added new cloth to the edges {just the edges were there wasn't the image}. The image was in the center of the cloth.

    It was preserved in a flood and survived a fire.

    In 1578 it was moved to Turin Italy and was placed in a special shrine at Cathedral of St. John the Baptist. It has remained since. It has been displayed periodically.

    In 1898
    An attorney and skilled photographer took a photo of the shroud. When the photograph was developed, the blurred image on the cloth of a face and body, was transformed into the sharp image of a man.

    Instead of a negative appearing on the plate, the image of a positive appeared. This proves that the image on the shroud had the qualities of a photographic negative.

    This is one of a kind in the history of photography.

    In 1978 over 3 million people viewed it. They saw on the cloth two negative impressions, the back of the body and the front of the body.

    Part 4 "the Team of Researchers study the cloth and do tests" to follow
     
  4. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    In October of 1978 a team of researchers from the United states were allowed five days to study the Shroud.

    Classical methods involve:

    1. A deveopment of hypotheses, a question, "How could this have occured?"

    2. Testing the hypotheses

    These are the 4 main hypotheses concerning the appearance of the image on the shroud.

    1.Painting

    2. Image produced on cloth was by direct contact with a body that was coated with some material
    {that would transfer to cloth}

    3. Vapors or liquid from a decaying body were absorbed by or reacted with the cloth.

    4. A heating or scorching phenomenon

    Painting hypothesis tested. These are the results.

    The heated area from the fire of 1532 had not caused any change in color or density of the image. water was dumped on it to stop the fire. The water migrated through the cloth and nothing in the image moved with the water, no color moved.

    This says that chemically there cannot be any of the kinds of painting pigments that would have been available before 1350 on the cloth. This rules out all forms of paint that existed at the time it was first discovered and brought to light.

    In addition another test was done at the Los Alamos National Labatory. The Shroud was put in an image analyzer. The surface of the image on the Shroud isn't uniform like a man made painting. Instead the surface of the image has varying degrees of depth. this creates a three dimensional effect in the shape of a real face and body. Professional artists know this is a painting because paint can't produce a real three dimensional effect.

    92 scientists tested the Shroud and testified that the Shroud is not a painting.
    It resembles a radiation burn

    Vapor Hypothesis

    The image is a result of many individual spots of color that are not connected. If material had diffused by cappilary flow {blood} into the cloth, the color would be continuous. The spots would be blended together.

    This is also true of Hypothesis 2 {direct contact with a body coated with material},
    such as sweat, blood. In Jesus time, a Jew, {Jesus was a Jew and lived as a jew}
    was anointed with oil or the cloth was anointed with oil before burial. In the case of Jesus, there wasn't enough time to anoint Him {as mentioned in bible account, which is why I included bible account}. There was only time to anoint the cloth because they didn't have time to wash the body which they would have done before anointing it. If they had washed and anointed the body, there wouldn't have been evidence of His crucifixtion transferrred to the cloth. This would be needed to show that He had been flogged and crucified as decribed in the gospels.

    The only other Hypothesis that the scientists had is

    The Heating Phenomenon Hypothesis.
    That being that the image was a result of a scorching or heating phenomenon such as a burst of radiation, {a radiation burn}.

    Since the image on the Shroud is like a photographic negative, something of a photographic nature produced that effect on the cloth similar to a photograph.

    Film photography is a result of chemicals reacting to light in such as way as to produce an image.

    Chemicals on the body, sweat, blood, oils reacting to a burst of light.

    The dots of color that makeup the image on the Shroud remind me of a digital camera's pixels, the dots of color that make up a digital image.

    Something of a photographic nature happened while His body was in direct contact with the cloth to have formed that kind of image. Scientists believe something extraordinary must have happened to this body to produce a photographic effect.
    It wasn't the fire because that would have destroyed the cloth.

    The process of a body being restored to life again causes a change may possibly cause this photographic effect. A burst of light that interacts with the body's chemistry and releases a burst of radiation that produces a radiation burn or photograph on the image.

    It was explained by a scientist with these words "Every pore of the body suddenly fired a light like a laser beam for a split second."

    Part 5 "Proving the Image was that of Jesus the Christ" To Follow
     
  5. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    I that I should mention before I continue with the subject heading that the reason carbon dating wasn't mentioned is because it is unreliable, inaccurate.

    Proving that the image on the cloth is an image of Jesus the Christ

    I want to preface this part saying that I personally, do not believe that every image that looks similar to Jesus Christ on something was miraculously produced and therefore authentic. It is possible that a person may have produced the effect such as on a crucifix {a tear or blood stain} or on a statue of the virgin Mary {a tear}. An act of nature may have produced something on a tree or window glass that looks similar to an image of Christ or the virgin Mary.

    However, as scientists have proven with their equipment and tests in the scientific study of the Shroud, there wasn't any materials that existed at the time the Shroud was discovered that any person could have used to produce the image of Christ in the way it was produced on the Shroud. Cameras hadn't been invented yet. There isn't any act of nature that the scientists thought of that could have produced that effect other than a burst of radiation. There weren't any atomic explosions then.

    However a resurrection, a body being restored to life could have caused a burst of light or radiation as each atom of the body was restored to life. There hasn't been any such event since so there isn't a way to test this theory.

    Autopsy of the corpse in the image

    The cloth or a photo of the cloth was brought to Professor James Cannon. He is a forensic pathologist at Scotland Yard, who uses his expert knowledge of the human body to examine corpses and help detectives solve crimes.

    He found evidence in the image of the corpse that the body was scourged.
    In the time of Jesus, a Jew was scourged up to 120 times, more than a non Jew which was about forty. A Roman would be doing the scourging would scourge another Roman sometimes less than forty. The Shroud reveals the body was scourged 120 times. Therefore the image of the corpse on the Shroud was that of a Jew. Jesus was scourged.
    "Then Pilot took Jesus and scourged."
    John 19:1

    The marks on the back of the body are exactly the marks that are made by the Roman flagrum {don't know exact spelling}, which had little balls on the end of it.

    The forensic pathologist found marks on the head area that are puncture wounds. These correspond with wounds that a crown of thorns would make. Bloodstains can be seen clearly on the forehead. A crown of thorns was placed on Jesus' head.
    "and put on Him a scarlet robe and when they {the soldiers}, had platted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head and a reed in His right hand and they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews and they spit upon Him and took the reed and smote Him on the head."
    Matthew 27:28-30 {in bible}

    There was also an abrasion found on the cheek in the image of the Shroud.
    "And when they had blindfolded Him they struck Him on the face."
    Luke 22:64 {in bible}

    People who were to be crucified carried their own cross. carrying a cross that is heavy and after being scourged {feeling pain} and perhapps tired, might cause the person to fall on a knee. Jesus carried His own cross
    "And He bearing His own cross went forth into a place which is called in Hebrew Golgatha...where they crucified Him."
    John 19:17-18 {in bible}
    On the shroud you can see that there is an abrasion on the left knee.

    A person would be suspended on a cross by being nailed to it, a nail through the feet and wrists. The Shroud image shows the nail marks in the wrists and feet the accurate way a person was suspended.

    Paintings at that time depicted a nail through the hand which is not accurate. Most paintings did not portray the body or face realistically.

    The painting theory is washed away.

    After the coroner examined the image of the body, the wounds on it determined that the cause of this man's death was crucifixion.

    Further evidence in 1976

    Using the technology of modern science, computer image enhancement, two scientists, John Jackson and Erick Jober, discovered that the density on the image of the Shroud varied in intensity in direct relationship to it's distance from the body. It produced a 3 dimensional likeness of the body within the Shroud.

    Part six "Doubting Thomases" to follow
     
  6. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    Some people do not have faith to believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected. The apostle Thomas didn't either. He said "Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the print of the nails and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe"
    John 20:24-29

    I believe God eanted to give physical evidence to those who doubt as thomas did. That is why He provided a photograph of the resurrection, a photographic image on cloth as a result of the resurrection.

    For hundreds of years the prophets of the old testement foretold the comming of the messiah, who would be born in Bethlaham, who would minister with healings and miracles. He would be rejected and put to death because God required an atonement for sin.

    Non Biblical Accounts

    Anciant Chinese records show that a Nova appeared in April of 4 B.C in the constellation of aquilla, the eagle.

    A new star was recorded at the time or around the time of Jesus' birth in fulfillment of Hebrew prophesy.

    In 1603, Johann Kippur discovered that a Jupiter, saturn, Mercury conjuncture would produce a very bright light.

    Either of these astronomical phenomenons which were proposed at the Roburt McLain Observatory, could have produced the light that the wise men from the east saw in the sky.

    In the 2nd century, Esebius mentions Hegesippus who was a jew who wrote five books called "Memoirs". They show that Hegesippus travelled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate. He mentioned in particular "in every city things according with the preachings of the prophets..."
    Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2

    In the sixth century, Babylonian Talmud
    The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary on the Jewish scriptures, the Tanach {the old testement}. It mentions a claim that His miracles were sorcery. Therefore this is not a biased source. It also mentions that Yeshu {Hebrew word for Jesus} was crucified. It reads "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged {another word for crucified}. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in His favor, let him come forward and plead in His behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in His favor He was hanged on the eve of the Passover."
    The Babylonian Talmud, volume III, Sanhedrin 43a

    37-101 A.D Josephus
    Josephus was an Orthodox Jew who was commissioned by the Romans to write a history of the Jewish people and Rome up until that point. He writes "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man, for He wad a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to Him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. And when Pilot, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned Him to the cross, those that love Him at the first did not forsake Him. {at the first but afterwards they were afraid which is why they did not come forward to plead in His behalf, not wanting a similar fate}. He appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold..."

    52 A.D Thallus
    One of the first secular writers who mentioned Christ.
    Julius Africanus who wrote about 221 A.D, mentioned Thallus" account of an eclipse of the sun. He writes "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness and the rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness, Thallus in the third book of his history calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."
    Julius Africanus, Chronography 18:1
    Luke 23:44-45 is another record of this episode.
    "and it was about the sixth hour and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened and the veil of the Temple was rent in the midst."

    First century sometime Phlegon
    He was a secular historian who wrote a history named "Chronicles". Julius Africanus preserved a fragment of Phlegon"s "Chronicles" in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse during the crucifixion of Jesus. He writes "During the time of Yiberius Ceasar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon."
    There is also an account of this in Matthew 27:45 of the bible.
    "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour."
    Africanus, Chronography, 18:1

    73 A.D Letter of Mara Barsarapion
    Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century. He mentions in his letter which is now in the possession of the British Museum, that the king of the Jews was crucified.

    120-18- A.D Lucian , a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians.
    Again, another unbiased source
    However he affirmed however that they were real historical people. He writes "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day---the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites and was crucified on that account.
    Luciene, The Death of Peregrine 11-13

    Part 7 "The fireman" to follow
     
  7. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    Jesus the Christ thought of those who wouldn't believe Him as the Messiah and the Son of God when He said "Though ye believe not me, believe the works, that ye may know and believe..." John 10:38 in the bible

    in other words believe in what He has done, His healings, miracles, His Teachings.

    Religeons other than Christian recognize His teachings as good, the Muslims and the Unitarians for example. Confucius taught some of the same principles. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
    Matthew 7:12 in bible

    Jesus added to that "Love your enemies" saying "I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you"
    Matthew 5:44
    I'm not at that level yet so I hope I don't have any enemies.

    His teachings have been recorded, written by Apostles. He was an example, a model of how we should live them. He atoned for sinners, the sins of every person on earth so that when we don't live up to them we could repent and be forgiven and eventually live with Him in God's presence.
    This is enough for those who have the Faith to believe.

    "WE LOVE HIM BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US"
    1 John 4.19 in bible

    I thought people all over the world would appreciate His teachings because He commands believers to "Love the Neighbor as themselves" Everybody would benefit from that, from those who live the religeon, {practice what they preach}.

    As part of loving their neighbor they should:

    1. Speak every man truth to his neighbor
    Ephesians 4:25 in bible

    2. Comfort the feebl minded and support the weak
    Acts 20:34-35 in bible

    3. Bear one another's burdens
    Galatians 6:2 in bible

    4. Visit the sick
    Matthew 25:36 in bible

    5. Clothe the naked
    Matthew 25:36 in bible

    6. Be merciful
    Luke 6:36 in bible

    7. If thy brother trespass against you, rebuke him and if he repent, forgive him.
    Luke 17:3 in bible

    If people are not grateful for these, I wonder why.

    If a Christain did an act of kindness {and they should}, such as donate something to charity, a coat or food or money or provided a place to stay or an organ {organ donation}, a person, the recepient, would benefit from this. The person that benefitted from this benefitted because a Christian was willing to donate. This is true if any person of any religeon donates to charity

    If a Christian were a fireman and saved a life {and many have, as well as those of other religeons}, I would think that the person saved would be grateful, whether the person saved was a Jew or Muslim.

    It would be odd to imagine,
    if a fireman were trying to save a life in a burning building that the person needing to be saved would ask the fireman "What religeon are you? I want to know before you save me whether I accept your beliefs."
    In other words would a rational person want to know whether he/she accepted the person's beliefs that is trying to save him or her before he or she permits the person to save them?

    Then, why would some people reject Jesus Christ being their Savior, why would they object to Him saving their life if He is offering that to them? He may be the only person who will save if noone else volunteers.

    Whether a person accepts Jesus the Christ as the Son of God or His teachings {which are a benefit to humanity} or not, I would think a person would be gratful to be saved, to have an opportunity to be forgiven.
    Perhapps some do not think they need to be forgiven because they don't believe there is sin.

    I've heard the expression "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth"

    Even if a person doesn't believe there is such a thing as sin and therefore a need to be forgiven if it were an offense to God or doesn't believe God exists, I would think a person would be grateful that there is such an opportunity to be forgiven if sin does exist and God exists and sin is an offense to God. In other words, if you were to discover that there is a God sometime in the future, some how some way, it's good to be prepared and have a way to reconcile with God.

    If you don't believe His divinity, His teachings or His atonement, that is your choice. God has given to you the right to choose but the fact of this matter, the Shroud and the records and accountings of His life upon the earth is, He did in fact exist.

    Perhapps some choose not to accept His existence because they feel they would have to accept His teachings. His teachings are good. They benefit society.

    Whether a person believes His teachings or not as stated before, He did exist. That has been recorded through historical accounts, secular as well as Christian and the Shroud has evidence of the crucifixion. It verifies the accounts and recordings of the crucifixion. They testify of eachother. The written word of the event with the image of it on the shroud, {the photograph for want of a better word.} I also believe it verifies the account of the Resurrection.

    "Just because one doesn't believe in God, the existence of God, doesn't make God of none effect."
    Romans 3:3-4

    Disputing or Debating the scientific evidence the Shroud presents of Jesus the Messiah would be disrespectful if in doing so, He would be ridiculed. That is why I have placed Him with the evidence of His Atoning Sacrifice here in discussion. Look at it for what it proves or look at it for what it represents. His Love for humanity.

    I wanted to share this because {I believe} everybody, one way or another, can benefit in knowing what Jesus Christ has to offer.
    THANKS for letting me share this with you
     
  8. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    I hope Scott, the moderator sees this post. I think he would enjoy reading it.
     
  9. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    Speculation that the Shroud is the same object as the Mandylion is almost entirely baseless, and was cooked up by 20th century proponents of the Shroud to account for the the fact that there is no record whatsoever of the Shroud before the 14th century.

    The Bishops of Troyes denounced the Shroud as a forgery from the very time it became known. It's pretty certain they were right, though venerators of the Shroud are no less tenacious than Creationists in asserting their opinions.

    However, if the Shroud is indeed what its proponents say it is, it certainly ought to be returned to the Church of Constantinople, from which they say it was stolen.
     
  10. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

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    The Shroud of Tourin has been carbon dated. It is not from 1st century. Sorry to dissapoint.

    B.
     
  11. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    I can see how my typo has caused a misinterpretation. In part 4 of the post entitled
    "The Team of Researchers Study the Cloth and Do tests", there is a typo in one of the sentences. The sentence should read "Professionals artists know this is NOT a painting because paint can't produce a real three dimensional effect."

    Another typo in part 4 that I am correcting . The sentence should read "The process of a body being restored to life again causes a change and may possibly cause this photographic effect."

    In part 5 a sentence should read "Then Pilot took Jesus and scourged Him"

    In part 6 a sentence should read "I believe God WANTED to give physical evidence to those who doubt as Thomas did."

    Another sentence in part 6 { within Josephus' account of Jesus the Christ} should read
    "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call Him a man, for He was a doer of wondeful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure."

    In Phlegon' account of the eclipse of the sun during the crucifixion, the sentence should read "During the time of SIBERIUS Ceaser an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon"

    The last correction is the dates of Lucian's writings they are between 120-180 A.D

    As regarding the comments made after my Post.

    As already mentioned in the Post, carbon dating is inaccurate. Scientists {those that are credible} already know this now. This has been determined as a result of tests to know the degree of accuracy in carbon dating. It was discovered that it is not very accurate.

    Tests using carbon dating were done. A mummy tested with carbon dating was dated to be modern and a modern object was dated to be anciant. One of the reasons that carbon dating is due to a thing called "plaque". An anciant object will acquire environmental plaque that alters the age.

    So I am not disappointed, I haven't a reason to be disappointed knowing carbon dating is inaccurate. A negative carbon dating doesn't disprove that it is from the 1st century. Other things mentioned in the Post indicate that it's from the first century.

    That's all I have to say about carbon dating since it's not worth mentioning and since this isn't a debate room.

    As regarding the other comment.
    The Post reveals 7 records or accounts of the Shroud before the 20th century. The earliest that was after the bible account was in Odessa, Turkey before 525 A.D Another was in 1204 and another 1452 and another 1502 and another1578 and another 1898.
    Since these records were before the 20th century, the Shroud isn't 20th century. It is first century. These records, therefore, weren't written by 20th century proponents.

    At least one of these records called it the "Mandellion" {perhapps I am spelling it incorrectly. I am spelling it the way it sounds to me}. At least one record is a basis. However, using a line from Shakspeare "What's in a name?" By any other name, Romeo would smell as sweet. Whatever the Shroud is called in any language, it's believed to be the burial Shroud of Jesus Christ, a cloth with His face and body's image transferred onto it.

    It isn't certain that the Bishops or Bishop of Troy ever denounced it. If there is a record of that, it doesn't have any more authenticty than the records that call it a "Mandellion" or that record sightings of it. Therefore, worst case scenario, there was a diiference of opinion then as there is today in the Religeous forum.

    If there is legitimacy to the Bishops or Bishop of Troy account, they didn't have a computer to do computer enhancement then or any other technolgy to test it. They didn't have a camera to photograph and see that it produced a photographic negative effect. How would a painter think of doing this effect not knowing what a photographic negative is. A painter wouldn't and therefore didn't.

    If the Bishops or Bishop of Troy had the technology they would know the image could not have been forged because it wasn't manmade. Scientists have said there weren't any materials available at that time to make that effect on the Shroud. It would have to be manmade to be forged. If it wasn't manmade, it couldn't have been forged. Logic 101.

    I don't know why they would denounce it when they didn't have a way of knowing whether it was authentic. They didn't have proof it wasn't authentic. If they didn't have proof it wasn't authentic, they wouldn't be able to disprove it. Perhapps they weren't able to acquire it and they had bad feelings.

    It's unusual the an Arch Bishop in the Catholic Church would denounce any relic when they promoted relics. Something that touched a saint was a relic. That couldn't be authenticated.

    That is why I am suspicious of the motives of the Bishops or bishop that denounced the Shroud.

    I choose not to be, as the comment said, tenacious in asserting what 92 scientists testified. That it is not a painting. It is not artificial, It is genuine. That is one reason why I did not post this in debate.

    I think their test results in the affirmative are trustworthy. That is another reason why I choose to put this finding here, in this room, rather than in debate because I don't see a reason to debate the scientific evidence. It speaks for itself.

    Also I have learned the the Spirit doesn't dwell where there is contention. I didn't want contention surrounding the Shroud and I didn't want any disrespect towards the Savior himself.

    I choose to not comment further to defend because this is not a debate room.

    I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

    Thank you your patiance with my typos. I am trying to improve.
     
  12. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    I said there was no record of the Shroud before the 14th Century, and there isn't. Hence the desperate attempts of the Shroud venerators to identify it with the Mandylion. However, those attempts are purely speculative -- at best.

    And there was no way the ancient Egyptians could have built the pyramids; therefore, they were built by aliens. Or maybe you need to go back and review Logic 101 again.

    The enthusiasm of the Catholic hierarchy for relics makes their lack of enthusiasm for the Shroud all the more telling. Note that the Avignon Pope Clement VII encouraged veneration of the Shroud, as an image of Jesus, but did not permit its exhibitors to call it the True Shroud.
     
  13. C&N

    C&N Member

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  14. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    These are Websites that you can look at photos of Shroud and read scientific results of tests and examine the evidence your self.

    1. Picture Tour with Dr. John De Salvo
    Type the above or the address below
    http://www.gizapyramid.com/LECTURE-SHROUD1.htm
    This site has good photos to see

    2. CSI Forensic Science Quest, pictures of Jesus, Shroud of Turin
    Type the above because the address is too looooooong

    This site includes:

    A. Forensics of the blood stains and evidence the blood stains are real blood.

    B. WHY CARBON DATING WAS INVALID
    as revealed by Forensic Specialists

    Click on "Forensic Science C.S.I, the picture of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin, the science quest for the historical Jesus

    3. www.shroudofjesus.com
    This site Answers questions

    4. National Geographic photo in news, Shroud of Turin
    This site has another article stating that THE CARBON DATING WAS IN ERROR

    5. The Shroud of Turin Story, pathology and forensic evidence from the image and the bloodstains
    Type the above or the address below
    http://www.shroudstory.com/forensics.htm
    Title of article "Rethinking the Shroud Objectively
    On this site 20th century forensic medicine tells us the bloodstains are realistic

    Also at shroudstory.com

    6. Pixels and 3D
    To arrive at page directly type
    http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-pixels.htm

    7. more about Pixels
    http://www.shroudstory.com/image.htm

    8. more about 3D
    http://www.shroudstory.com/vp8.htm

    9. "Not A Painting"
    www.shroudstory.com

    10. another article entitled "The Image On Shroud Was Not Painted"
    http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/

    11. Mystical Phenomena - Shroud of Turin, negative image shown on the Shroud of Turin
    Type the above to get to it because the address is longer
    This website has another artical saying that it couldn't be a painting.
    It says this type of cloth doesn't even hold paint well.

    12. Crime Library, Shroud of Turin sacred relic...
    Type the above because the address is too long

    Click on "Startling Revelation"

    This website has an article that further explains why the CARBON DATING WAS IN ERROR
    The edge of the cloth was tesed. The edge of the cloth was added to the Shroud after the fire burned the edges in 1532. The image was not in that area. It is in the middle of the cloth. The carbon dating tested the cloth that was added in 1532. It didn't test the image itself which is FROM THE 1st CENTURY. The image area was TESTED AND DATED TO BE FIRST CENTURY.

    13. The Official Website of the Shroud {where it resides}
    http://www.sindone.org
    Official site of the Shroud

    Under "Chapters, click on "Interpreting the Shroud" then click on "Image"

    14. The Shroud of Turin Website Library
    Type the above or type the address below
    http://www.shroud.com/examine.htm

    15. The cloth napkin that was placed around His head.
    It was mentioned in the biblical account and it is customary among the Jews {at the time} to prepare a body for burial this way.
    It is called the "Sudarium"
    http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm

    As already stated in my comment in response to comments after my Post, I am not disappointed knowing that carbon dating is inaccurate. There are websites that prove this and that when the Shroud was tested the area where the image is, wasn't tested.
    Other tests reveal it is from the first century. This doesn't bear repeating except if the post was read at a glance.

    I read a good saying on the internet
    "Be A Fact Finder before a Fault Finder"

    Correction of some overlooked typos to follow
     
  15. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    A sentence in my response to comments should read "One of the reasons that carbon dating has been inaccurate is due to a thing called "plaque" another word is "Natural Plastic Coating"
    Linen is made from flax and over a very long time it develops a natural plastic coating.
    This process is called Plasticism.
    One of the websites I listed explains this very thing.

    Another correction
    The sentences should read " they didn't have a computer to do computer enhancement then or any other technology to test it. They didn't have a camera to photograph and see that it produced a photographic positive."
    The Shroud, therefore, was like a photographic negative. An artistic impossibility in the 14th or 15th centuries.

    I made a typo apologizing for my typos.
    The sentence should read "Thank you for your patiance with my typos."

    The reason typos happen frequently is that I lowered the light on the screen to reduce glare and when I glance over the words, sometimes I overlook typos and I'm not the best spelley. Sometimes I'm tired of typing. I don't know how to use the spell correcter yet.

    I apologize for my typos again.
     
  16. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    So let's say the Shroud is genuine. In that case, shouldn't it be returned whence it was stolen?
     
  17. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    "It is the Spirit the quickeneth {makes alive}"
    John 6:63

    "If the Spirit {Holy Spirit} of Him {Heavenly Father} that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you, He {the Holy Spirit} that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken {make alive} your mortal bodies by His sirit that dwelleth in you."
    Romans 8:11

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust that He might bring us to God, bing put to death in the flesh but {made alive by the Spirit"
    1 Peter 3:18
     
  18. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    I felt impressed that I should add this

    Jesus kept His Father's commandments, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was not a false prophet because He lived and taught God's principles.

    There are warnings in the Old Testement about false prophets teaching people to worship false gods. Jesus taught us how to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in prayer. He taught us with this prayer...

    "After this manner, therefore pray,
    Our Father which art in Heaven, HALLOWED {to Consecrate, to make or declare sacred}
    be thy name Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."
    Matthew 6:9 {in bible}
    This shows respect and reverance towards the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Jesus the Christ was crucified because He was called the Son of God and wouldn't deny it. That was interpreted as blasphemy by unbelievers in the promised Messiah, those who didn't recognize that He would have to make an atonement for their sins with Himself, as prophesied.

    He said "...Though ye believe not me, believe the works that ye may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in him. {agreement}.
    John 10:38 {in bible}

    He also said "I go unto the Father, for the Father is greater then I."
    John 14:28 {in bible}

    Jesus said that the Father is greater then himself {Jesus}. That is the humbleness of Jesus Christ.

    He certainly wasn't enticing or persuading people away from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob {being a heretic} rather He was leading people to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and to better obey Him {the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob}.

    The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob {Jesus' Father} was certainly in agreement in all that Jesus taught. There are too many teachings to mention here. It is better that you read the book yourselves to see what Jesus taught.

    Some people may think there are inconsistencies between the old law and the new but "loving others as we love ourselves" is a higher law. Heavenly Father {the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob} thought it was time they had the higher law. Instead of
    "a life for a life, a tooth for a tooth", Jesus taught the higher law "to forgive" when they repent and ask forgiveness.

    I guess you could compare it to this, first we learn addition then we can learn calculus
    Leviticus 19.18 {the old law in the Old Testement in bible} says
    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"
    They needed Jesus teachings to practice this principle more.
     
  19. God is love

    God is love Active Member

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    "ye shall seek me and find me when ye shall search for me with all your heart."
    Jeremiah 29:13

    The formula for finding Jesus
    has always been and ever will be the same, the earnest and sincere prayer of a humble heart. In order to receive a witness of Him, we must be receptive to Him.

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
    John 3:16
     
  20. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    What in the world do your last three posts have to do with the Shroud of Turin?
     
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