Shocked To Find Out Yahweh Was Originally A Canaanite God Who Had A Wife, Asherah

[SeekingAllTruth]

If Yahweh was not included in the pantheon, then Yahweh was not copied from there.



Even without knowledge of the universe, they could have a concept of infinty, everything and more.

The point is that belief in Yahweh might have been copied from a pagan pantheon. But when it ****ed to belief in an infinite creator, it stopped being pagan and the belief in a pantheon dissolved.

It was. The Jews copied Yahweh from the Canaanites. "Adopted" might a better word.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have to try to convince the fundamentalists of this. They believe man was only on earth for 6000 years starting with Adam and all those dinosaur bones and hominid skeletons were planted there by satan to deceive the Christians into not believing the Bible is true.

That's really wild! That Satan sure has a lot of power. I did not know that they believed that dinosaur bones and hominid skeletons were planted by Satan. I learn something new on this forum every day, and I learn a lot of new things on some days.

Baha'is do not believe in Satan as an existent being. We believe Satan is symbolic of the lower evil nature of man, and that is yet another way we are different from Christians, be they fundamentalists or not.

You will NEVER convince a fundamentalist that what they believe is not true, so when I realize I am posting to a fundamentalist, I usually just move along the road. I have to admit that sometimes I would rather stay and talk, but I have learned the futility in doing so.

That said, it is hard for me to wrap my head around people who believe things that have been disproven by science, but I guess that is one reason why I am a Baha'i and not a Christian.

FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

 

[74x12]

Look, I get that you're a Christian and that your whole point is to defend Jesus, but you don't want to come out and say so. So you're concocting this smoke screen "What does it matter if Yahweh was known to the Canaanites. It's just theory...." spiel to hide your true motives of trying to defend Jesus.

I get all that.

My point is that if Yahweh originally was a Canaanite pagan god--and current scholarship says he was based on evidence they have unearthed, then the Jews adapted this pagan god to be their god. And this god, Yahweh was the god that the Jews were worshiping when Jesus came along. Jesus called Yahweh his father when he prayed "Father, do this..." Jesus was actually praying to and calling a pagan god his father. Or are you hinting Yahweh wore two hats--he was a pagan god to the Canaanites but the One True "I AM" to the Jews? I mean how cockeyed is that??????

The end result is that Jesus was either a normal man who was crucified and died, period end of story for Jesus; or Jesus was begotten of a pagan god, Yahweh and Ashera and then they chose mary to be the surrogate, but you've got to choose one or the other. Pick your poison.

Yes they theorize that the Israelites were just Canaanites or Amorites depending on which theory you're going with. So my point is valid.

You say Jews adapted this pagan god but it makes no sense if your scholars are right and the Jews were originally Canaanites themselves. So all in all your argument is pretty flawed. There was no such thing as "Jews" back then. They were Hebrews according to the Bible and according to secular scholars they were originally Canaanites from the hills or Amorites that wandered in from the desert. So either scholars are right in which case "Jews" didn't necessarily adapt anything. They simply were worshiping the same gods as everyone else. Or scholars are wrong and the Bible is right in which case it would make sense that most cultures of the ancient world would have some remembrance of the original creator God including the Canaanites. For example even some Greek philosophers speak of a one true original God above all other gods.

The end result is that Jesus was either a normal man who was crucified and died, period end of story for Jesus; or Jesus was begotten of a pagan god, Yahweh and Ashera and then they chose mary to be the surrogate, but you've got to choose one or the other. Pick your poison.

Are you suggesting that the people who wrote the new Testament also believed in Asherah even though they came much later on than Canaanite times? In fact the whole Canaanite pantheon was more or less ancient history by then. We're talking about the Roman empire. So, that doesn't make much sense to me. I think you're trying to make this debate about Jesus? Is there some reason for that? I mean I love to talk about Jesus but I don't get it.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That's really wild! That Satan sure has a lot of power. I did not know that they believed that dinosaur bones and hominid skeletons were planted by Satan. I learn something new on this forum every day, and I learn a lot of new things on some days.

Baha'is do not believe in Satan as an existent being. We believe Satan is symbolic of the lower evil nature of man, and that is yet another way we are different from Christians, be they fundamentalists or not.

You will NEVER convince a fundamentalist that what they believe is not true, so when I realize I am posting to a fundamentalist, I usually just move along the road. I have to admit that sometimes I would rather stay and talk, but I have learned the futility in doing so.

That said, it is hard for me to wrap my head around people who believe things that have been disproven by science, but I guess that is one reason why I am a Baha'i and not a Christian.

FOURTH PRINCIPLE—THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE RELATION BETWEEN RELIGION AND SCIENCE

Oh, I am well aware of that! That cement block is so tough I don't think a nuclear warhead could penetrate it. Baha'i sounds like a really cool religion, much like Latter Day Saints. If I were a religion-type of person I'd join one of them. But I'm not religious.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the early cavemen believed in an infinite creator God who prohibited idols and images then there won't be archeological evidence of these beliefs until written language is developed.

But wasn't it Moses who first prohibited idols and images? That is what I believe, I do not believe that cavemen were privy to this information since that was long, long before the days of Moses.

 

[dybmh]

It was. The Jews copied Yahweh from the Canaanites. "Adopted" might a better word.

I'm not seeing strong similarities between the Canaanite pantheon and Jewish monotheism. There are a few similarities, but not enough to justify that one was copied from the other. The lack of evidence of the Jewish Yahweh before the Canaanites is easily explained. That leaves minimal support for the conclusion that the Jews copied from the Canaanites.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes they theorize that the Israelites were just Canaanites or Amorites depending on which theory you're going with. So my point is valid.

You say Jews adapted this pagan god but it makes no sense if your scholars are right and the Jews were originally Canaanites themselves. So all in all your argument is pretty flawed. There was no such thing as "Jews" back then. They were Hebrews according to the Bible and according to secular scholars they were originally Canaanites from the hills or Amorites that wandered in from the desert. So either scholars are right in which case "Jews" didn't necessarily adapt anything. They simply were worshiping the same gods as everyone else. Or scholars are wrong and the Bible is right in which case it would make sense that most cultures of the ancient world would have some remembrance of the original creator God including the Canaanites. For example even some Greek philosophers speak of a one true original God above all other gods.

Sigh. This should not have to be explained to you. The early Hebrews were probably a tribe of Caananites themselves. They had their own gods as all tribes tended to have. The evidence tells us that they ran into another group and and adapted/adopted their gods. It is not unreasonable especially when intermarriage between tribes happened, and kept the people that did that healthy. It is not a good idea to keep marrying your cousin. Monotheism is an evolution of polytheism. Over time multiple gods are turned into one. It has not only happened with the Abrahamic religions.

Are you suggesting that the people who wrote the new Testament also believed in Asherah even though they came much later on than Canaanite times? In fact the whole Canaanite pantheon was more or less ancient history by then. We're talking about the Roman empire. So, that doesn't make much sense to me. I think you're trying to make this debate about Jesus? Is there some reason for that? I mean I love to talk about Jesus but I don't get it.

Not what he said or implied at all. The god that they worship has roots there. By the time of Jesus it had evolved into the one "God" of modern Judaism.

 

[dybmh]

But wasn't it Moses who first prohibited idols and images? That is what I believe, I do not believe that cavemen were privy to this information since that was long, long before the days of Moses.

Ignoring Rabbinic tradition, idols were prohibited as early as Jacob (Genesis 35:2)

 

[Subduction Zone]

But wasn't it Moses who first prohibited idols and images? That is what I believe, I do not believe that cavemen were privy to this information since that was long, long before the days of Moses.

Moses appears to be merely another mythic creation of Abrahamic religions. The Exodus as told in the Bible clearly did not occur. If one goes by the clock of births, as so many fundamentalists like to do the Hebrews in Egypt escaped Egypt to run away to . . . Egypt. At the time based upon Moses begat so and so the Empire of Egypt was quite large and extended north past present day Israel.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, I am well aware of that! That cement block is so tough I don't think a nuclear warhead could penetrate it. Baha'i sounds like a really cool religion, much like Latter Day Saints. If I were a religion-type of person I'd join one of them. But I'm not religious.

A nuclear warhead, lol. I do not know much about the Latter Day Saints but from the encounters I have has with them have been very positive and many have been very open-minded about Baha'i.

I am not a religious type of person either, I just believed that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be and I liked the teachings, so I became a Baha'i. I try to say my daily short obligatory prayer, but other than that I do not have any religious practices and I do not attend any religious activities, at least I haven't for a very long time. I have always been one to do my own thing, and that is acceptable in the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i community would like to see more of me, but they never pressure me to attend any activities. I might attend some activities eventually, when the Covid restrictions are lifted, but right now all activities are on Zoom.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Yes they theorize that the Israelites were just Canaanites or Amorites depending on which theory you're going with. So my point is valid.

You say Jews adapted this pagan god but it makes no sense if your scholars are right and the Jews were originally Canaanites themselves. So all in all your argument is pretty flawed. There was no such thing as "Jews" back then. They were Hebrews according to the Bible and according to secular scholars they were originally Canaanites from the hills or Amorites that wandered in from the desert. So either scholars are right in which case "Jews" didn't necessarily adapt anything. They simply were worshiping the same gods as everyone else. Or scholars are wrong and the Bible is right in which case it would make sense that most cultures of the ancient world would have some remembrance of the original creator God including the Canaanites. For example even some Greek philosophers speak of a one true original God above all other gods.

Are you suggesting that the people who wrote the new Testament also believed in Asherah even though they came much later on than Canaanite times? In fact the whole Canaanite pantheon was more or less ancient history by then. We're talking about the Roman empire. So, that doesn't make much sense to me. I think you're trying to make this debate about Jesus? Is there some reason for that? I mean I love to talk about Jesus but I don't get it.

I said all this elsewhere on this thread but I'll repeat it. I've always referred to the Jews as Hebrews from their earliest days up to the Exodus. Afterward I refer to them as Jews. Biblical scholars don't believe the Exodus happened. That alone invalidates the entire Bible as the true word of God because if something that big is false/a fable then how much else is? Maybe Jesus is too.

The earliest Hebrews were a nomadic tribe wandering around the Levant. They eventually settled among the Canaanites and intermarried with them, naturally. They Canaanites were worshiping a pantheon of gods, among them

The god El was viewed as the elder, “gray beard” supreme deity. He was the creator god, the father of the gods and humankind, and the god of wisdom.

That's why Elohim shows up in the Old Testament.

"The word Elohim occurs more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Bible, with meanings ranging from "gods" in a general sense (as in Exodus 12:12, where it describes "the gods of Egypt"), to specific gods (e.g., 1 Kings 11:33, where it describes Chemosh "the god of Moab", or the frequent references to Yahweh as the "elohim"

John Day wrote a highly regarded book on the relationship of Yahweh to other Canaanite gods and goddesses

"This masterly book is the climax of over twenty-five years of study of the impact of Canaanite religion and mythology on ancient Israel and the Old Testament. It is John Day's magnum opus in which he sets forth all his main arguments and conclusions on the subject. The work considers in detail the relationship between Yahweh and the various gods and goddesses of Canaan, including the leading gods El and Baal, the great goddesses (Asherah, Astarte and Anat), astral deities (Sun, Moon and Lucifer), and underworld deities (Mot, Resheph, Molech and the Rephaim). Day assesses both what Yahwism assimilated from these deities and what it came to reject. More generally he discusses the impact of Canaanite polytheism on ancient Israel and how monotheism was eventually achieved."

 

[Trailblazer]

Moses appears to be merely another mythic creation of Abrahamic religions. The Exodus as told in the Bible clearly did not occur. If one goes by the clock of births, as so many fundamentalists like to do the Hebrews in Egypt escaped Egypt to run away to . . . Egypt. At the time based upon Moses begat so and so the Empire of Egypt was quite large and extended north past present day Israel.

Maybe the Exodus as told in the Bible did not occur as depicted, but I believe that Moses existed as a real person and a Messenger of God/Prophet. Why do most atheists believe that Jesus existed but not Moses?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe the Exodus as told in the Bible did not occur as depicted, but I believe that Moses existed as a real person and a Messenger of God/Prophet. Why do most atheists believe that Jesus existed but not Moses?

Because there is at least minimal secular evidence for Jesus and his existence is not refuted by evidence. But if anything like the tribes of Hebrews existed in reality there escape as portrayed in Exodus would have left clear evidence. When an event should leave evidence and none is to be found that is evidence against the idea. There is no evidence to be found of the Exodus. That tells us that it likely did not happen. Without the Exodus there really is no Moses story.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Moses appears to be merely another mythic creation of Abrahamic religions. The Exodus as told in the Bible clearly did not occur. If one goes by the clock of births, as so many fundamentalists like to do the Hebrews in Egypt escaped Egypt to run away to . . . Egypt. At the time based upon Moses begat so and so the Empire of Egypt was quite large and extended north past present day Israel.

If the Exodus was one big fat lie then the entire Bible is subject to suspicion as to its veracity. Yet the Christians claim it is their god's "INERRANT" word. There are no contradictions in it. How can a proven falsehood/fable like the Exodus be god's inerrant word and not be one big fat contradiction to everything else? Do Christians just close a blind eye to the untruths and then go right on saying there are no contradictions? Christians refuse to face this reality. They push it out of their mind as fast as you mention it. This is part of why I had to give up Christianity. I couldn't live with the lies and deception Christianity is saturated with.

 

[Trailblazer]

Without the Exodus there really is no Moses story.

True, there is no Moses story, but that does not mean there was not a man called Moses.

The Ten Plagues of the Exodus in Light of the Bahá’í Writings

Here is an excerpt from the rather long article:

The story of the Exodus has endured well over two thousand years 8 and is commemorated annually by the Jewish holiday of Passover. But does it represent historical fact? Mírzá Abu’l-Fa∂l,9 a renowned Near Eastern scholar of the early 20thcentury, points out the lack of evidence of any of the Exodus events up to that time. He states, “No trace has been found of Plagues of the Exodus11 Moses’ mission to the Israelites, their plea for salvation from Pharaoh's tyranny through Moses’ leadership, or their emigration to the plains of Syria under his standard.”10 He says that “those with insight” should note this lack of evidence:

For it is unimaginable that the Egyptians, who depicted on walls every event, great or small, and inscribed in stone everything that happened in Egypt, whether temporal or religious in nature, should have neglected to mention such extraordinary and stupendous occurrences as Moses’ demonstration of amazing signs and the drowning of Pharaoh and his huge army.11Since the time of Mírzá Abu’l-Fa∂l much has been learned about the history of the ancient Israelites, but evidence regarding the Exodus is still lacking.​

This long article concludes this way:

More historical information concerning the physical journeys and circumstances of the Israelites in the early days of the Mosaic Dispensation may be discovered by archaeology and other disciplines in the future, or may be lost to time, but the Bahá’í Writings indicate that inner meanings related to the Mosaic Dispensation live in the biblical story. Whether or not the details are confirmed in the historical record, the Bahá’í Writings acknowledge the biblical text as a spiritual guide to the Kingdom.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Biblical scholars don't believe the Exodus happened. That alone invalidates the entire Bible as the true word of God because if something that big is false/a fable then how much else is?

I think the Exodus happened and it validates the true word of God.

Egypt - Desert - Wilderness - Mount
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold

 

[Trailblazer]

I think the Exodus happened and it validates the true word of God.

I like to think it is true too, as I said in my thread below, but with no actual proof, how can we know what actually happened?

The Ten Commandments movie

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think the Exodus happened and it validates the true word of God.

Egypt - Desert - Wilderness - Mount
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold

"Thinking" does not count for anything. If it happened there should have been evidence of the event. Anthropologists have been looking for over one hundred years and they cannot find any Yet they can find evidence of far smaller migrations. Do you know what that tells us?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I like to think it is true too, as I said in my thread below, but with no actual proof, how can we know what actually happened?

The Ten Commandments movie

Worse yet you take on a huge burden of proof. Why would an event that is all but guaranteed to leave massive evidence leave none? You believe only because you want to believe, not because it happened.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

"Thinking" does not count for anything. If it happened there should have been evidence of the event. Anthropologists have been looking for over one hundred years and they cannot find any Yet they can find evidence of far smaller migrations. Do you know what that tells us?

That tells me they cant find evidence because they have been looking in the wrong places.


Level 1 - Level 2 - Level 3
Desert - Wilderness - Mount
Spear - Sword - Bow

Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. Jeremiah 31:2

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9


If these verses are not enough I can show verse after verse until the point is made.


For example even the sun and moon stands still to confirm the Exodus.

Desert - Wilderness - Mount
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habbakuk 3:11


And wine flows from the mountain made of gold to confirm the Exodus.

Desert - Wilderness - Mount
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oil - Wine