SETI and the "oxygen bottleneck"

[Shadow Wolf]

We probably shouldn't assume life on other planets developed and evolved as it did on Earth. After all, evem Stephen Hawking put forth the idea of life forms based on silicon and other forms and appearances and said even that was confined to the limits of his imagination.
As for technology, this is where I wonder what? Stone tools were such a tremendous advance in technology for us that they helped change our evolution to where we could develop more complex amd elaborate technology beyond poking holes in the ground that moved us from horticulture to agriculture. We probably don't want to assume other planets will be like us either.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...none of this changes the fact that oxygen levels have been decreasing for millions of years, yet technology has appeared..

OK. Why shouldn't it? What's your point?...

Please forgive but I was under the impression that the entire point of this thread was that there we some minimum level of oxygen required for the appearance of technology. I disagreed w/ that idea & quite possibly I'm not disagreeing w/ you as your view may be something else entirely.

Sorry.

 

[Heyo]

We probably shouldn't assume life on other planets developed and evolved as it did on Earth. After all, evem Stephen Hawking put forth the idea of life forms based on silicon and other forms and appearances and said even that was confined to the limits of his imagination.

That's an old scifi trope but it's more fiction than science. Silicon's valence electrons are not as "free" as those in carbon, so that carbon is really the most likely candidate to base life on.

As for technology, this is where I wonder what? Stone tools were such a tremendous advance in technology for us that they helped change our evolution to where we could develop more complex amd elaborate technology beyond poking holes in the ground that moved us from horticulture to agriculture. We probably don't want to assume other planets will be like us either.

Seti is about finding extra terrestrial intelligences. On a first look, they do assume that they are like us because we know that we have technology and it is likely that we are pretty "normal". It is a good tactic to search for something like us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Seti is about finding extra terrestrial intelligences. On a first look, they do assume that they are like us because we know that we have technology and it is likely that we are pretty "normal". It is a good tactic to search for something like us.

We aren't even a statistical life normal for this planet, and definitely not the only intelligent ones.

That's an old scifi trope but it's more fiction than science. Silicon's valence electrons are not as "free" as those in carbon, so that carbon is really the most likely candidate to base life on.

Life as we know it, as evolved on Earth.

 

[Heyo]

We aren't even a statistical life normal for this planet, and definitely not the only intelligent ones.

We are not the only intelligent life form but the only one with technology.

Life as we know it, as evolved on Earth.

The only life we know is even possible.

 

[Valjean]

Aren't we being shortsighted and terracentric here?

Oxygen is not needed for life, nor is carbon necessarily the only possible base molecule, nor are independent, organisms.

We have no experience with "life" different from the metabolizing, self-contained, individually reproducing forms we see here on Earth. Let's not dismiss alternative configurations out-of-hand.

"Life" -- not "as we know it" cannot be dismissed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Aren't we being shortsighted and terracentric here?

Oxygen is not needed for life, nor is carbon necessarily the only possible base molecule, nor are independent, organisms.

We have no experience with "life" different from the metabolizing, self-contained, individually reproducing forms we see here on Earth. Let's not dismiss alternative configurations out-of-hand.

"Life" -- not "as we know it" cannot be dismissed.

Except this debate is not. or at least should not be about life. The oxygen bottleneck is about technology and how a relatively high percentage of oxygen is necessary to start out technology, not life.

For example, how would an underseas civilization without access to molecular oxygen create engines? Separate out metals from ores? It might be possible. Make wires? There are all sorts of basic technology that takes a fire to be able to make it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We are not the only intelligent life form but the only one with technology.

I don't think we are. Such as, a beaver's dam is basically a form of primitive technology for defense and collecting food. It wasn't really that long ago in our own evolution that wooden structures were the best technology we could muster to help keep us safe.

The only life we know is even possible.

True, but it's very unlikely the case. And I wouldn't bet on us being it given the solid history of our species being proven wrong when we postulate we are the height of creation, it all revolves around us, our own little world is all there is.

 

[Heyo]

True, but it's very unlikely the case. And I wouldn't bet on us being it given the solid history of our species being proven wrong when we postulate we are the height of creation, it all revolves around us, our own little world is all there is.

I don't see it as hubris but as being humble. It doesn't say that we are "the height of creation" but that we are just as everybody else, nothing special.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Oxygen is not needed for life, nor is carbon necessarily the only possible base molecule, nor are independent, organisms.

I always find it remarkable when people casually inject extraordinary claims. I look forward to reading your evidence.

"Life" -- not "as we know it" cannot be dismissed.

... nor declared.

Parenthetically, the Scientific American article

Could silicon be the basis for alien life forms, just as carbon is on Earth​

is interesting. Two caveats:

1. I am fairly ignorant when it comes to organic chemistry and, therefore, in no position to judge such article, and
2. the article is roughly 26 years old and might well have been superseded by others more friendly to silicon-based life.

Perhaps you could direct us to such works. There is, of course, Wikipedia. Just remember that the thread is about SETI, where the "I" suggests enormously evolved complexity while the "S" implies the presence of, not just bio-signatures, but techno-signatures.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is just to add a link to the May 2020 paper On the Potential of Silicon as a Building Block for Life. The paper itself is way beyond me but its "Synthesis and Conclusion" suggests that we're unlikely to encounter the Horta any time soon.

 

[wellwisher]

The problem is that without the oxygen based technology and manufacturing before that how would a civilization get to that stage?

You brought up Mars. Put intelligent life on Mars right now and it will just die. Technology has to "evolve" with a civilization. The argument is that one cannot get from A to C without B. And in this case "B" is oxygen based manufacturing.

This is true, but eventually this criteria will not apply, since there are other energy sources, that intelligent life can develop, that are not oxygen dependent. Electric cars do not burn oxygen. We can extract oxygen from mineral oxides, but this takes lots of energy; nuclear. If we were looking at the universe, we will miss all potential advanced civilizations that have overcome the atmospheric oxygen tech bottleneck. If we had a nuclear energy plant on Mars, and we could be energy wasteful, we can use the Mars minerals for breathing oxygen and metals. There is plenty of iron oxide; steel and O2. Under the Dome, the oxygen may not show up on alien spectra devices looking for oxygen.

Oxygen on the other hand, will eliminate all postulated solvents for life, besides water. We can burn organic solvents in oxygen; use as fuel, to make CO2 and Water, thereby making water the last solvent standing. Resistance to oxygen becomes less important in water. Alcohol based cells will eventually burst into flames if O2 is too high. High O2 defaults to water based life.

What makes water so unique is not just the hydrogen bonding, but that fact that water molecules can form up to four hydrogen bonds per molecule. Each H20 has two donors; two unshared electron pairs and two acceptors; two hydrogen protons. Ammonia can form hydrogen bonds but it has three hydrogen acceptors but only one unshared election pair. It lacks the balance of acceptors and donors to form extended reversible structures. This is why ammonia has much a lower boiling point; -28 F versus +212 F for water. The symmetry and balance of donors and acceptors of water is very stabilizing.

If we compare the entropy of O2 plus H2 versus in H20, H20 has less entropy, especially since H20 is a liquid at ambient conditions, while O2 and H2 gases need to get very cold to condense. O2 is forever a gas on earth. However, H20 has lower enthalpy; lower internal energy compared to O2 and H2. Breaking down H20 back to O2 and H2 is driven by the second law; photosynthesis. Photosynthesis may have been inevitable when conditions were correct. The total free energy and entropy both increase when we reverse water back to O2 and H2. The next stage of human energy will be H2 and O2, with H2 production possibility increasing atmospheric O2 levels; via bulk H2 storage. Higher atmospheric oxygen will bring out even more from H2O based life; increased metabolic potential for even higher entropy.

If take liquid water, this is composed of very stable covalent bonds. However, the decrease within entropy, going from H2 and O2, creates an entropic potential that requires water increase its complexity; internally via the hydrogen bonding. The mobile proton of the pH affect is one such effect. Clouds in the atmosphere is another; hydrogen bonds form. When we add organics to water; water and oil affect, the surface tension increases; more order. This further lowers the entropy of water. The second law requires a phase separation, so there is less ordered water surface. This creates order in organic materials, so now they have an entropic potential; organic change is inevitable.

Oxygen is key in that oxygen can form oxide or O-2. The minus two tells us that oxygen can support two more electrons than it has protons in its nucleus. Something more than electrostatic attraction is at work; there is net charge repulsion. This has to due with magnetic addition able to overcome electrostatic repulsion; octet of electrons.

Essentially oxygen and hydrogen; hydrogen bonds, can separate the EM force into its magnetic and electrostatic components. This is reflected in the binary or polar; electrostatic, and covalent aspects; magnetic, of hydrogen bonds. Physics, treat these two forces as part of one force; EM force, but water can separate EM into two. This is unique to water; catalytic, and makes water very anomalous; unique properties of water compared to the trends in most all other materials.

 

[Valjean]

I always find it remarkable when people casually inject extraordinary claims. I look forward to reading your evidence.

Life right here on Earth began in a non-oxygen atmosphere.
Primordial life was anærobic. It generated oxygen as a metabolic waste product. This toxic, highly reactive gas gradually built up till it rusted the whole planet and nearly wiped out all existing life.
Evidently a few organisms managed to tolerate it, and eventually actually incorporate it into a new metabolic mechanism.

Parenthetically, the Scientific American article

Could silicon be the basis for alien life forms, just as carbon is on Earth​

is interesting. Two caveats:

1. I am fairly ignorant when it comes to organic chemistry and, therefore, in no position to judge such article, and
2. the article is roughly 26 years old and might well have been superseded by others more friendly to silicon-based life.

I agree. Silicon isn't nearly as versatile as carbon, but let's not be carbon chauvinists. Life must arise in whatever chemical milieu is available, and must work with what it has, anatomically and physiologically. Prototypes might not be the optimum possible design, but once established, evolution is stuck with small modifications of existing anatomy and physiology.

Perhaps you could direct us to such works. There is, of course, Wikipedia. Just remember that the thread is about SETI, where the "I" suggests enormously evolved complexity while the "S" implies the presence of, not just bio-signatures, but techno-signatures.

OK, a couple that popped up with a quick Google search:

Why there might be life out there unlike any on Earth — Harvard Gazette

Researchers create synthetic species without biochemistry, find they operate according to Darwinian evolutionary principles.

news.harvard.edu

https://www.space.com/alien-life-not-carbon-based-autocatalysis-commonui

And Wiki:

Hypothetical types of biochemistry - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Life right here on Earth began in a non-oxygen atmosphere.

You seem to be intensely focused on an irrelevant talking point.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is true, but eventually this criteria will not apply, since there are other energy sources, that intelligent life can develop, that are not oxygen dependent. Electric cars do not burn oxygen. We can extract oxygen from mineral oxides, but this takes lots of energy; nuclear. If we were looking at the universe, we will miss all potential advanced civilizations that have overcome the atmospheric oxygen tech bottleneck. If we had a nuclear energy plant on Mars, and we could be energy wasteful, we can use the Mars minerals for breathing oxygen and metals. There is plenty of iron oxide; steel and O2. Under the Dome, the oxygen may not show up on alien spectra devices looking for oxygen.

Oxygen on the other hand, will eliminate all postulated solvents for life, besides water. We can burn organic solvents in oxygen; use as fuel, to make CO2 and Water, thereby making water the last solvent standing. Resistance to oxygen becomes less important in water. Alcohol based cells will eventually burst into flames if O2 is too high. High O2 defaults to water based life.

What makes water so unique is not just the hydrogen bonding, but that fact that water molecules can form up to four hydrogen bonds per molecule. Each H20 has two donors; two unshared electron pairs and two acceptors; two hydrogen protons. Ammonia can form hydrogen bonds but it has three hydrogen acceptors but only one unshared election pair. It lacks the balance of acceptors and donors to form extended reversible structures. This is why ammonia has much a lower boiling point; -28 F versus +212 F for water. The symmetry and balance of donors and acceptors of water is very stabilizing.

If we compare the entropy of O2 plus H2 versus in H20, H20 has less entropy, especially since H20 is a liquid at ambient conditions, while O2 and H2 gases need to get very cold to condense. O2 is forever a gas on earth. However, H20 has lower enthalpy; lower internal energy compared to O2 and H2. Breaking down H20 back to O2 and H2 is driven by the second law; photosynthesis. Photosynthesis may have been inevitable when conditions were correct. The total free energy and entropy both increase when we reverse water back to O2 and H2. The next stage of human energy will be H2 and O2, with H2 production possibility increasing atmospheric O2 levels; via bulk H2 storage. Higher atmospheric oxygen will bring out even more from H2O based life; increased metabolic potential for even higher entropy.

If take liquid water, this is composed of very stable covalent bonds. However, the decrease within entropy, going from H2 and O2, creates an entropic potential that requires water increase its complexity; internally via the hydrogen bonding. The mobile proton of the pH affect is one such effect. Clouds in the atmosphere is another; hydrogen bonds form. When we add organics to water; water and oil affect, the surface tension increases; more order. This further lowers the entropy of water. The second law requires a phase separation, so there is less ordered water surface. This creates order in organic materials, so now they have an entropic potential; organic change is inevitable.

Oxygen is key in that oxygen can form oxide or O-2. The minus two tells us that oxygen can support two more electrons than it has protons in its nucleus. Something more than electrostatic attraction is at work; there is net charge repulsion. This has to due with magnetic addition able to overcome electrostatic repulsion; octet of electrons.

Essentially oxygen and hydrogen; hydrogen bonds, can separate the EM force into its magnetic and electrostatic components. This is reflected in the binary or polar; electrostatic, and covalent aspects; magnetic, of hydrogen bonds. Physics, treat these two forces as part of one force; EM force, but water can separate EM into two. This is unique to water; catalytic, and makes water very anomalous; unique properties of water compared to the trends in most all other materials.

If you want a response please try to eliminate the pseudoscience from you posts. You use terms that you have no understanding of and it makes your posts unreadable.

 

[wellwisher]

If you want a response please try to eliminate the pseudoscience from you posts. You use terms that you have no understanding of and it makes your posts unreadable.

I try to keep it simple.

The oxygen and hydrogen flame is one of the most exothermic in chemical nature. It burns at 3073K. The stable product left behind is water. Although one might expect the water molecule to be inert due to being forged in such a powerful energy environment, liquid water is very dynamic at the nanoscale, due to hydrogen bonding. The oxygen and hydrogen bonds constantly break and form; hydrogen bonds can become new covalent bonds. The average H2O molecule with the same hydrogen and oxygen atoms only lasts a tiny fraction of time until hydrogen and oxygen of water swap partners; dissociation.

The phenomenon is known as "proton hopping" or "proton exchange" in the context of water molecules in liquid water. In water, the hydrogen atoms within the water molecule can be exchanged with hydrogen atoms from neighboring water molecules due to the fluid and dynamic nature of the hydrogen bonding network in liquid water.

The exact timescale for proton hopping can vary depending on several factors, including temperature, pressure, and the presence of other solutes in the water. On average, a water molecule can undergo proton hopping within a very short timescale, typically on the order of picoseconds (10^-12 seconds) to femtoseconds (10^-15 seconds).

This dynamic world of liquid water at the nanoscale makes it ideal for passing around information. Other solutes and surfaces in the water can impact the time scale and act as a signature or finger print. When we evaporate water and break the hydrogen bonding matrix of liquid water molecules. Now the same hydrogen and oxygen can last for a long time.

Life, postulated in other solvents, has many disadvantages. The energy bandwidth is much lower than water based life. If we use an alcohol as an example, that solvent becomes the energy floor. If you go below the energy value of the solvent, the solvent will break down and can spontaneously combust. If you try to burn; metabolize sugars, and have an alcohol solvent floor, you only have the narrow band between the two. Water, being the product of one of the most energetic reaction in nature, give you the lowest energy floor and therefore highest energy bandwidth. Water based life has selective energy bandwidth advantages.

Organic solvents for life, would be especially vulnerable to oxygen; O2, with oxygen trying to lower the floor; oxidize. Oxygen is not a problem with water, since water is already at the floor of oxygen, so O2 can mingle in water and can be used to break down the organics in life, with the solvent water not impacted. Oxygen further increased the energy bandwidth of water based life and would have wiped out other solvent base life competitors. This natural design is inherent within chemical nature. It could have been inferred before life began; natural design.

I see a hydrogen and oxygen based energy future for humanity, using fuel cells, which are like batteries but you add hydrogen fuel, like we do gasoline, instead of charge the battery. Both generate electricity and both make no noise or give off pollution. The hydrogen needs of the world will create a surplus of oxygen which could cause the atmospheric oxygen to increase. I tend to think this will be useful to life. But it may require changes in building materials since the oxidation potential will increase; more rust and oxidation of plastics. Glass and ceramics will still be very stable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I try to keep it simple.

The oxygen and hydrogen flame is one of the most exothermic in chemical nature. It burns at 3073K. The stable product left behind is water. Although one might expect the water molecule to be inert due to being forged in such a powerful energy environment, liquid water is very dynamic at the nanoscale, due to hydrogen bonding. The oxygen and hydrogen bonds constantly break and form; hydrogen bonds can become new covalent bonds. The average H2O molecule with the same hydrogen and oxygen atoms only lasts a tiny fraction of time until hydrogen and oxygen of water swap partners; dissociation.



This dynamic world of liquid water at the nanoscale makes it ideal for passing around information. Other solutes and surfaces in the water can impact the time scale and act as a signature or finger print. When we evaporate water and break the hydrogen bonding matrix of liquid water molecules. Now the same hydrogen and oxygen can last for a long time.

Life, postulated in other solvents, has many disadvantages. The energy bandwidth is much lower than water based life. If we use an alcohol as an example, that solvent becomes the energy floor. If you go below the energy value of the solvent, the solvent will break down and can spontaneously combust. If you try to burn; metabolize sugars, and have an alcohol solvent floor, you only have the narrow band between the two. Water, being the product of one of the most energetic reaction in nature, give you the lowest energy floor and therefore highest energy bandwidth. Water based life has selective energy bandwidth advantages.

Organic solvents for life, would be especially vulnerable to oxygen; O2, with oxygen trying to lower the floor; oxidize. Oxygen is not a problem with water, since water is already at the floor of oxygen, so O2 can mingle in water and can be used to break down the organics in life, with the solvent water not impacted. Oxygen further increased the energy bandwidth of water based life and would have wiped out other solvent base life competitors. This natural design is inherent within chemical nature. It could have been inferred before life began; natural design.

I see a hydrogen and oxygen based energy future for humanity, using fuel cells, which are like batteries but you add hydrogen fuel, like we do gasoline, instead of charge the battery. Both generate electricity and both make no noise or give off pollution. The hydrogen needs of the world will create a surplus of oxygen which could cause the atmospheric oxygen to increase. I tend to think this will be useful to life. But it may require changes in building materials since the oxidation potential will increase; more rust and oxidation of plastics. Glass and ceramics will still be very stable.

And once more pretending to understand the sciences..

 

[wellwisher]

And once more pretending to understand the sciences..

I was using the oxygen bottleneck to show how water has selective advantage in terms of being the ideal solvent for life. An oxygen atmosphere in this topic, used to infer a certain level of technical sophistication for life on other planets, precludes life in other solvents. I bring it up since it appears nobody has reasoned this through.

Life in other solvents; organic, is the greatest pretender of science, if you factor out the fudging effect of casino math and science. Stick to the logic and you can reach the same conclusion. Add fudge via dice and card and you will stay stuck.

Life in any other solvent would require a suitable replacement for DNA since DNA is designed for water. Is does not work in other solvents. That new template molecule would need to be designed, before you can half bake using the replicator approach to start that version of evolution. Such replacements have not been designed. The cart is ahead of the horse.

If you do not understand the concept of an energy floor in life, this is the free energy threshold, below which you cannot go, without altering the system; solvent, in an irreparable way. In the case of life in organic solvents, if you lower the base free energy below the free energy threshold of the solvent; floor, the solvent becomes food. This floor bottleneck makes the usable energy bandwidth very tight of organic solvents; would be very slow to evolve. Water does not have that problem. There is no basement below water.

If we also add oxygen to the mixture, all organic solvents for life run into an oxidation bottleneck, even if it somehow manages to stay above the floor in an environment without molecular oxygen. If we find oxygen, life, and intelligence it will be water based life.

I was also showing some of the unique flexibility of water at the nanoscale. Hydrogen bonding in water brings new things to the table many of which are counter intuitive; anomalies. The covalent bonds of a single water molecule are very strong and stable. But once we form the liquid state and hydrogen bond forms, the hydrogen are not restricted from leaving and finding a new oxygen. This is based a balancing act by oxygen. A hydrogen from one water molecule can go from polar; forms a hydrogen bond, and then to covalent; attach to the new oxygen, if another hydrogen previously covalently bonded changes to polar; hydrogen bond. Oxygen is remains still at the same place energy wise. It still adds to H20 and up to four hydrogen bonds. This allows tension and pressure to form at the same time and reach steady state.

Water is the most studied substance in science. You do not need a lab if you get to stand on the shoulders of giants. Applied science makes it easier to extrapolate.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I was using the oxygen bottleneck to show how water has selective advantage in terms of being the ideal solvent for life. An oxygen atmosphere in this topic, used to infer a certain level of technical sophistication for life on other planets, precludes life in other solvents. I bring it up since it appears nobody has reasoned this through.

Life in other solvents; organic, is the greatest pretender of science, if you factor out the fudging effect of casino math and science. Stick to the logic and you can reach the same conclusion. Add fudge via dice and card and you will stay stuck.

Life in any other solvent would require a suitable replacement for DNA since DNA is designed for water. Is does not work in other solvents. That new template molecule would need to be designed, before you can half bake using the replicator approach to start that version of evolution. Such replacements have not been designed. The cart is ahead of the horse.

If you do not understand the concept of an energy floor in life, this is the free energy threshold, below which you cannot go, without altering the system; solvent, in an irreparable way. In the case of life in organic solvents, if you lower the base free energy below the free energy threshold of the solvent; floor, the solvent becomes food. This floor bottleneck makes the usable energy bandwidth very tight of organic solvents; would be very slow to evolve. Water does not have that problem. There is no basement below water.

If we also add oxygen to the mixture, all organic solvents for life run into an oxidation bottleneck, even if it somehow manages to stay above the floor in an environment without molecular oxygen. If we find oxygen, life, and intelligence it will be water based life.

I was also showing some of the unique flexibility of water at the nanoscale. Hydrogen bonding in water brings new things to the table many of which are counter intuitive; anomalies. The covalent bonds of a single water molecule are very strong and stable. But once we form the liquid state and hydrogen bond forms, the hydrogen are not restricted from leaving and finding a new oxygen. This is based a balancing act by oxygen. A hydrogen from one water molecule can go from polar; forms a hydrogen bond, and then to covalent; attach to the new oxygen, if another hydrogen previously covalently bonded changes to polar; hydrogen bond. Oxygen is remains still at the same place energy wise. It still adds to H20 and up to four hydrogen bonds. This allows tension and pressure to form at the same time and reach steady state.

Water is the most studied substance in science. You do not need a lab if you get to stand on the shoulders of giants. Applied science makes it easier to extrapolate.

We already knew about water. But your post was nonsense again.

 

[Valjean]

I was using the oxygen bottleneck to show how water has selective advantage in terms of being the ideal solvent for life. An oxygen atmosphere in this topic, used to infer a certain level of technical sophistication for life on other planets, precludes life in other solvents. I bring it up since it appears nobody has reasoned this through.

Life in other solvents; organic, is the greatest pretender of science, if you factor out the fudging effect of casino math and science. Stick to the logic and you can reach the same conclusion. Add fudge via dice and card and you will stay stuck.

Life in any other solvent would require a suitable replacement for DNA since DNA is designed for water. Is does not work in other solvents. That new template molecule would need to be designed, before you can half bake using the replicator approach to start that version of evolution. Such replacements have not been designed. The cart is ahead of the horse.

If you do not understand the concept of an energy floor in life, this is the free energy threshold, below which you cannot go, without altering the system; solvent, in an irreparable way. In the case of life in organic solvents, if you lower the base free energy below the free energy threshold of the solvent; floor, the solvent becomes food. This floor bottleneck makes the usable energy bandwidth very tight of organic solvents; would be very slow to evolve. Water does not have that problem. There is no basement below water.

If we also add oxygen to the mixture, all organic solvents for life run into an oxidation bottleneck, even if it somehow manages to stay above the floor in an environment without molecular oxygen. If we find oxygen, life, and intelligence it will be water based life.

I was also showing some of the unique flexibility of water at the nanoscale. Hydrogen bonding in water brings new things to the table many of which are counter intuitive; anomalies. The covalent bonds of a single water molecule are very strong and stable. But once we form the liquid state and hydrogen bond forms, the hydrogen are not restricted from leaving and finding a new oxygen. This is based a balancing act by oxygen. A hydrogen from one water molecule can go from polar; forms a hydrogen bond, and then to covalent; attach to the new oxygen, if another hydrogen previously covalently bonded changes to polar; hydrogen bond. Oxygen is remains still at the same place energy wise. It still adds to H20 and up to four hydrogen bonds. This allows tension and pressure to form at the same time and reach steady state.

Water is the most studied substance in science. You do not need a lab if you get to stand on the shoulders of giants. Applied science makes it easier to extrapolate.

But if water is not available, another substrate is the only possibility. If methane or ammonia seas are the only medium, life will avail itself of these.