September Dawn and the Mountain Meadows Massacre

[BUDDY]

I tried to see if a thread had already been started concerning this subject, but did not find anything. My apologies if something has already been started. As many of you are probably aware, the movie September Dawn will be coming out soon, which is a story about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Now, I know that there are many views concerning what exactly happened at Mountain Meadows, so I won't state what I think, which is based on a lot of research recently. I do think though that the movie itself may cause a lot of negative feeling towards LDS, Brigham Young, etc. I want to get some feedback from LDS members. What are your feelings on the movie and the massacre itself? Do you think that there has been an effort by the early church to cover this up? Do you think that this will have a negative effect on the LDS and it's reputation?

Just curious.

 

[Buttercup]

Any links you can provide concerning the massacre would be appreciated.

 

[Katzpur]

I tried to see if a thread had already been started concerning this subject, but did not find anything. My apologies if something has already been started. As many of you are probably aware, the movie September Dawn will be coming out soon, which is a story about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Now, I know that there are many views concerning what exactly happened at Mountain Meadows, so I won't state what I think, which is based on a lot of research recently. I do think though that the movie itself may cause a lot of negative feeling towards LDS, Brigham Young, etc. I want to get some feedback from LDS members.

Hi, Buddy. You may know more about the Mountain Meadows Massacre that a lot of non-Mormons, so the information I am posting may not be new to you. Others, however, may find it interesting and it might be a good place for this discussion to start.

From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Here is the story of the tragic events which transpired in the summer of 1857: The Mormon pioneers, having been forceably driven from their homes in Illinois in mid-February of 1846, had in 1847, finally arrived in the Salt Lake Valley, where they had come to worship God without the persecution they had endured since the Church was founded in 1830. They were, at this time, working at colonizing the West. In 1857, Utah was not a state but a territory. As the events unfolded, a large contingent of US troops was marching towards the Utah Territory. Despite having been the federally appointed territorial governor, Brigham Young was not informed by Washington of the army's purpose, and interpreted the move as another surge of persecution of the Latter-day Saints. Anticipating an imminent attack, he declared the territory to be under martial law and ordered the Saints to stand ready to defend themselves.

Part of Brigham's strategy was to enlist the local Indian tribes as allies. He had not long before made a statement urging the settlers to try to gain the confidence and trust of the Indians, saying, "they must learn that they have either got to help us or the United States will kill us both."

Meanwhile, a group of non-LDS emigrants were headed for California. Due to the lateness of the season, they had decided to take a southern route, which would take them through the town of Cedar City and thirty-five miles beyond it to Mountain Meadows. This area was fairly well-known as a good place for travelers to stop and rejuvenate themselves before starting off into the vast desert that lay between the Utah Territory and the Pacific Coast. This particular party was made up of a diverse group of about 120 people, most of whom were from Arkansas.

As the emigrants made their way from Salt Lake City towards Cedar City, tensions arose between them and both the Mormons and the Indians. Spurred by rumors, their own observations and memories of the horrible attrocities which had been perpetrated against them in the past, Mormon residents in and around Cedar City were anxious to take action against the travelers -- even though the travelers themselves were innocent of any wrong-doing against the Mormons. Ultimately, however, they decided to hold off until they were able to contact Brigham Young and ask for his blessing in doing so. They dispatched a messenger on September 7 to make the nearly 300-mile (one-way) trip to Salt Lake. He made the trip in just over three days.

Within about an hour after meeting with Brigham Young, the messenger was back on his way to Cedar City with a letter from Brigham Young with the following statement:

"In regard to the emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please, but you should try and preserve good feelings with them."

The messenger arrived back in Cedar City on September 13. By that time, nearly all of the men, women and children who had been on their way to California had been slaughtered by the Mormons and the Indians. (About eighteen children were spared.) It was a tragic, senseless act of violence commited by a group of people who undoubtedly knew better but who had, for whatever reasons, let their desire for revenge override their common sense and religious training. As more information became available, several of the principle participants were formally excommunicated from the Church.

In September of 1990, two thousand individuals gathered in Cedar City to effect a reconciliation among those whose ancestors either died or participated in the most unfortunate event in the history of the LDS Church. A memorial marker was dedicated to those who lost their lives in the events of that horrendous massacre. President Gordon B. Hinckley, who was at that time, First Counselor in the Presidency of the Church offered the dedicatory prayer. He said, "In our time, we can read such history as is available, but we really cannot understand nor comprehend that which occurred those tragic and terrible September days in 1857. Rather, we are grateful for the ameliorating influence that has brought us together in a spirit of reconciliation as new generations gather with respect and appreciation for one another. A bridge has been built across a chasm of cankering bitterness. We walk across that bridge and greet one another with a spirit of love, forgiveness, and with hope that there will never be a repetition of anything of the kind."

What are your feelings on the movie and the massacre itself?

The massacre itself was probably the darkest moment in LDS history. It was a horrendous event that cannot be justified. As far as a movie goes, I really don't know what to think. To be perfectly honest, I'd be pretty surprised to see the facts presented accurately, but who knows?

Do you think that there has been an effort by the early church to cover this up?

In the early Church, quite possibly. In the Church today, no.

Do you think that this will have a negative effect on the LDS and it's reputation?

I don't know. The movie will probably just add fuel to an already existing fire.

 

[FFH]

Remeber the massacre happened on September 11, 1857 and many are making a comparison to Islam Jihad exptremists attacks on September 11, 2001.

Did we have a few "Jihad" Mormons in our midst, at that time, who completely acted on their own, defying Brigham Young's authority, who acted out their own extremist religious beliefs ???

I believe these were men who had premeditated this killing spree, acting in defiance of LDS church authority.

LDS extremists acting outside the bounds of peaceful righteous LDS behavior.

Here is the official statement given by the First Presidency of the LDS church.

Official statement by the LDS church concerning the Mountain Meadow Massacre

LDS RF thread
Mountain Meadow Massacre
cardero

 

[cardero]

The movie keeps getting pushed up. It was supposed to be out in May.

 

[FFH]

The movie keeps getting pushed up. It was supposed to be out in May.

Yeah, I thought it was already playing in theaters.

There may have been some last minute editing to the film...

 

[cardero]

Yeah, I thought it was already playing in theaters.

There may have been some last minute editing to the film...

Which means that I have to wait until they release the Uncut Director's Version on DVD to see the whole film.

 

[FFH]

Which means that I have to wait until they release the Uncut Director's Version on DVD to see the whole film.

Many are playing up on the parallel of 9/11, which I believe there are legitimate parallels; of people acting outside the norms of their religion, not acting under the direction of their particular religion's official leaders, but acting on behalf of their own radcal satanic beliefs..


SEPTEMBER DAWN and the Official LDS Response

 

[BUDDY]

Katzpur, I appreciate the attempt to tell the story on your part, but I intentionally did not put a link or information on my post, out of respect for the the LDS members on this site. I think that if people want to find out about the MMM they can easily find a lot of information. The problem with putting a link on here or quoting something written, is that it can easily be interpreted by either side of the discussion as biased. I encourage folks to do a quick google search and find out for themselves what transpired, and make there own determination regarding the church leaders role in providing information about the attack afterwards. By the way, while the dispatch from Brigham Young is accurate, it is also stated in numerous places that after the US Army buried the bodies (which were still sitting out in the open almost a year after the event) and erected a cross and stone memorial, that Brigham Young visited the site finally, and took apart that stone memorial piece by piece.

On a personally note, I am trying very hard to be polite and non-aggressive concerning this topic. If I fail in that then I apologize, it is just that I have a personal interest in this story. My great grandmother was a Francher.

 

[cardero]

Many are playing up on the parallel of 9/11, which I believe there are legitimate parallels; of people acting outside the norms of their religion, not acting under the direction of their particular religion's official leaders, but acting on behalf of their own radcal satanic beliefs..


SEPTEMBER DAWN and the Official LDS Response

I was able to watch alot of news reports about this movie from the YouTube link that you posted. One of the reasons that they gave for the movie delay was that the distribution company wanted to wait until the Summer Blockbusters calmed down so that the movie would not be overlooked or lost in the shuffle.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur, I appreciate the attempt to tell the story on your part, but I intentionally did not put a link or information on my post, out of respect for the the LDS members on this site. I think that if people want to find out about the MMM they can easily find a lot of information. The problem with putting a link on here or quoting something written, is that it can easily be interpreted by either side of the discussion as biased. I encourage folks to do a quick google search and find out for themselves what transpired, and make there own determination regarding the church leaders role in providing information about the attack afterwards.

If only a quick google search could give us the answers we could rely on as accurate. The truth of the matter is, there is probably not an unbiased site anywhere on the web on this tragic event, and the bottom line is that God alone knows what really happened. While it's good for people to be informed, and to obtain as much information as there is available, we all know that people will believe what they want to believe. They will accept as objective any "fact" that supports what they already believe to be true. You do and so do I.

By the way, while the dispatch from Brigham Young is accurate, it is also stated in numerous places that after the US Army buried the bodies (which were still sitting out in the open almost a year after the event) and erected a cross and stone memorial, that Brigham Young visited the site finally, and took apart that stone memorial piece by piece.

That may very well be the case. If it is, it's terrible. Nothing anybody can say or do now can change it.

On a personally note, I am trying very hard to be polite and non-aggressive concerning this topic. If I fail in that then I apologize, it is just that I have a personal interest in this story. My great grandmother was a Francher.

You have been entirely polite and non-aggressive, Buddy. You must understand, though, that my ancestors were forcibly driven from their homes in the dead of winter, made to leave behind everything they had, and were terribly mistreated at the hands of other Christians. I accept this as a sad fact, and am grateful that all Christians are not the same as the Christians who perpetrated these atrocities against my own great, great grandparents were.

 

[FFH]

Truth is, these were religious extremists, acting independently of their official religion's leader's orders...

Many think it best to act for, and in behalf of, God, but are actually acting for, and in behalf of, Satan.

These were obviously very Satanic men, who perpetrated this extremely evil act, disarming them, under false pretenses, and then brutally murdering them.

There is no excuse for these men, of which there will most likely be no forgiveness in the world to come, for these men. These are those of which Christ spoke of, of whom there is "no forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come," being "son's of perdition," having all light and knowledge given to them by God, and then turning around and slapping God in the face, so to speak, by denying the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, after it/they have been revealed to them...

Most likely all of these men knew better, but were consumed with hate, and decided to take it out on the first non-Mormon wagon train attempting to enter into Mormon claimed territory..

"I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men".
~ Jesus Christ ~

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord"
~ Jesus Christ ~

 

[FFH]

The order from Brigham Young was to "defend" the Mormon territory, not disarm innocent men and then brutally murder them...

"All is fair in love and war"

If threatened by armed men, we have the right to defend our families, religion, country, etc..

Islam extremist were the first offenders, so were these Mormon malitia men.

There is a definite parallel between Islam extremists and these Mormon's who perpetrated these horrible acts of hate and violence..

Satan incarnated individuals, in my opinion, son's of perdition, and antichrists, as are Islam extremists..

This very same anti-Christian movement/spirit of Satan, threatens to destroy the whole world today, and may succeed in doing just that if we, as Christians, do not love, as Christ would love the world/our enemies.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I hope history never repeats its self. That is a terrible story and only strengthens my belief in the second amendment.

 

[jonny]

I tried to see if a thread had already been started concerning this subject, but did not find anything. My apologies if something has already been started. As many of you are probably aware, the movie September Dawn will be coming out soon, which is a story about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Now, I know that there are many views concerning what exactly happened at Mountain Meadows, so I won't state what I think, which is based on a lot of research recently. I do think though that the movie itself may cause a lot of negative feeling towards LDS, Brigham Young, etc. I want to get some feedback from LDS members. What are your feelings on the movie and the massacre itself? Do you think that there has been an effort by the early church to cover this up? Do you think that this will have a negative effect on the LDS and it's reputation?

Just curious.

The majority of Americans dislike Mormons. This movie will reinforce these negative feelings, which is the purpose for which it was created (my opinion, of course). I don't know that Americans could really dislike Mormons more than they do already, so I don't know that it will have much of an impact.

Every review I've read of this movie says it makes Mormons look awful. People love to hate Mormons, so I think it will sell lots of tickets. The fact that the movie has been pushed back twice indicates to me that it isn't very well made and they're trying to find a weekend where there isn't much else going on in the theaters.

 

[jonny]

You have been entirely polite and non-aggressive, Buddy. You must understand, though, that my ancestors were forcibly driven from their homes in the dead of winter, made to leave behind everything they had, and were terribly mistreated at the hands of other Christians. I accept this as a sad fact, and am grateful that all Christians are not the same as the Christians who perpetrated these atrocities against my own great, great grandparents were.

The history of my family is similar to yours. I don't try to justify what happened at Mountain Meadows, because there is no justification. It was awful and it makes me sick to read about it. At the time time, I don't think the blaming the church or Brigham Young for what happened gets us anywhere. The LDS people were angry. This isn't just a story of religious fanatisism. It is also a story about what happens when you bully people and force them out of society because they don't fit into your mold.

 

[jonny]

By the way, while the dispatch from Brigham Young is accurate, it is also stated in numerous places that after the US Army buried the bodies (which were still sitting out in the open almost a year after the event) and erected a cross and stone memorial, that Brigham Young visited the site finally, and took apart that stone memorial piece by piece.

Do you have a source for this? I haven't been able to find anything from an original source that says Brigham Young took apart the memorial "piece by piece." What I've been able to find is that Brigham Young visited Mountain Meadows a year after it happened. A memorial was there that said "Vengeance is mine and I will repay saith the Lord." According to Wilford Woodruff's diary, Brigham Young said something to the effect of "It should say Vengeance is mine and I have taken a little." From the information I've been able to find, those who were with Brigham Young pulled the memorial down.

I'd be interested in the original source from your statement because it seems to me that it is a good example of how people have deamonized Brigham Young with this. He did enough on his own to make himself look bad. We don't have to make stuff up to make him look even worse.

I don't believe that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. What I blame Brigham Young for is creating an atmosphere where members of the church would do this sort of thing. The members of the church felt that they were at war with the rest of America. Brigham Young, as prophet and government leader, allowed this to happen.

 

[nutshell]

Actually, Jonny, I think Mormons have never been more accepted.

Everyone has a dark secret. This is one of the Church's. Don't hide - just say sorry and move on.

 

[jonny]

Actually, Jonny, I think Mormons have never been more accepted.

Everyone has a dark secret. This is one of the Church's. Don't hide - just say sorry and move on.

According to a Gallup poll conducted this year, 46% of Americans have an unfavorable opinion of Mormons. Whether or not Mormons have never been more accepted is irrelevant. They are still disliked by a large number of Americans.

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=26758

 

[BUDDY]

I do believe that the ambush in Missouri was horrible and someone should have been held accountable. I certainly don't think that anything that happened to them would be deserving of the mass murder of 120 men, women and children. It was one of the most tragic events in American history and not many people know about it. There are many historians who believe that church leaders including Brigham Young covered it up. Now, you may say that there are people out there who just trying to villainize Brigham Young, but have you ever thought that perhaps he may be deserving of it in some way? Have you ever thought that because of HIS actions, people may hold a negative impression of him? I think one of the things the film may be trying to say is that religious fanaticism causes people to not look beyond their own positive prejudices and face facts. That can be true with someone regardless of which relgion they practice. I certainly hold nothing against Mormons themselves. You all are very nice people, and I am sorry that you have to be put into a situation where you are answering questions about something so horrible that was done so long ago. But the only reason you are having to do this is because no one has ever been held accountable for it, and the church was never forth right and honest about it fromt he very beggining. The only person that was convicted of the crime, John D. Lee, was put to death and excommunicated from the church. Then, some years later after he was dead, the church decide to bring him back in again. What's up with that?

As far as the Brigham Young statement goes, I first read of it from Will Bagley, but I also saw it on the internet. Just tried to find it, but can't. Until I do, I will recant my previous statement out of respect for your sentiments regarding this subject. Here is some additional information for those of you wishing to look into the incident more closely.

Read what Mark Twain had to say about it in his book "Roughing It"

From a Brigham Young descendant:
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mmm_familysecrets.htm