Scripture study for world-improving self improvement, "God" undefined

[Jim]

This is how I'm currently thinking about using religious scriptures that I trust. For information, the ones I use most are Baha'i scriptures, which I study as part of learning to follow Baha'u'llah. When I use Christian scriptures, it's mostly to see what I think about what Christians say that the Bible says. The way I'm thinking now, in studying my scriptures, it doesn't matter to me how much of it is fiction, and it doesn't matter to me what the word "God" might mean, by itself, or even if there really is such a thing. I don't care any more, and I like it that way. I don't see any difference that it would make for me, to think of all of religious lore and scriptures as pure fiction. That isn't what I think, but I don't see any difference that it would make to me if I did, for what I'm using them for, which is learning to follow Baha'u'llah.

There is something that I think happens to people sometimes, that moves them to try to improve their personality, their character, and the way they live their lives, for the benefit of all people everywhere. I think that's the best thing that can happen to anyone, and what the world needs, for human progress and to right the wrongs and repair the damage. That's what I'm thinking now that "faith" means in the scriptures that I trust, but I don't think it requires believing in the reality or existence of God, or believing that anything in any religious lore or scriptures is reporting anything that has ever actually happened. Everything that I think religious lore and scriptures can do improve people's lives and their willingness and capacity to help improve the world, can happen just as well even for someone who sees it all as pure fiction. Maybe even better, without the distraction of trying to believe or prove that any of it is not fiction.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Hello

Yes, agreed. The point you bring here is what we call dharma in Hinduism.

dharma : Definition: Duty, responsibility, righteousness, calling, compassion... right action. Following the spiritual teachings (life-teachings) is also dharma.

This is why the religion is called Hindu Dharma. Even atheists have to follow their dharma.

I cherish the Divine experiences and feel fortunate, but have to be a disciple first. Following the teachings of the faith or trusted spiritual master, such as non-violence, sva-dharma (one's duty towards family, neighbors, society, humankind, living beings, environment AND OneSelf,,,) is important,

If you have faith , it is a gift (partly earned, partly a gift)
Then if faith develops into bhakti (devotion) that is an even sweeter gift from the Divine, because the Divine reciprocates in proportion to your faith.
If this bhakti turns universal and develops jnAna (spiritual knowledge) that is the ultimate and leads to enlightenment.

 

[Jim]

Hello

Yes, agreed. The point you bring here is what we call dharma in Hinduism.

dharma : Definition: Duty, responsibility, righteousness, calling, compassion... right action. Following the spiritual teachings (life-teachings) is also dharma.

This is why the religion is called Hindu Dharma. Even atheists have to follow their dharma.

I cherish the Divine experiences and feel fortunate, but have to be a disciple first. Following the teachings of the faith or trusted spiritual master, such as non-violence, sva-dharma (one's duty towards family, neighbors, society, humankind, living beings, environment AND OneSelf,,,) is important,

If you have faith , it is a gift (partly earned, partly a gift)
Then if faith develops into bhakti (devotion) that is an even sweeter gift from the Divine, because the Divine reciprocates in proportion to your faith.
If this bhakti turns universal and develops jnAna (spiritual knowledge) that is the ultimate and leads to enlightenment.

Thank you. That’s a wonderful response to my post. I love it. Thank you.

 

[siti]

That's more or less what I tried to do with the Bible a few years ago. I thought maybe it wasn't so important what was actually "true" about the accounts in the time they were written about, but what was "in the hearts and minds" of people reading them now to receive - if you see what I mean?

Once I got down to the nitty-gritty of "self-improvement" and "world-improvement" and left aside the unlikely, the improbable and outright impossible and therefore obviously fictional elements, there wasn't much left - a possible analogical interpretation of the "temple" as our body and the "courtyard" as our environment (God's "footstool" as it were) and some very general maxims about Golden Rule type reciprocity that weren't at all new when they were selected for inclusion among the "sayings" of "Christ" - after that, its all pretty much either mistaken or outdated moral precepts (an eye for an eye, the outlawing of homosexuality and laws about not eating shellfish etc.) or fairy tales (David and Goliath, Joshua making the sun stand still, Noah's Ark etc.)

Its "nice" to think there's a God "up there" who cares about us enough to send messengers again and again to remind, upbraid, correct, scold, encourage, sympathize...with us in our plight...but I reckon the overwhelming "message" we get from reading "divinely-inspired" scriptural traditions with a genuinely open mind is that we are almost certainly on our own - making up stories to comfort ourselves - and the energy that goes into interpreting (or debunking) these stories would probably be better expended on the effort to understand better their obviously human origins and what they tell us about being human (warts and all) - and the effort to better understand our fundamentally human condition and how we can best improve that condition by rational and natural means.

Certainly I think that Baha'u'llah moved the goalposts of "revealed religion" closer to where they needed to be in the 19th century...but the problem with "revealed religion" is that it clings to two of the most counter-productive ideas that have beset humanity over the millennia - revelation and religion. I have said this before, but I just don't think the cure for religious disunity is more religion - and religious disunity is certainly one of the most persistent and divisive issues besetting humankind. Baha'u'llah's "cure" is a "hair of the dog" thing. More scripture, more revelation, more religion. It isn't helping as far as I can tell.

So for me, it isn't so much a question of whether the scriptural traditions are truth or fiction (although in some cases I'll happily debate that question till the cows come home), its more about whether they really add any value - other than as literature.

 

[Phantasman]

"The world came about through a mistake. For he who created it wanted to create it imperishable and immortal. He fell short of attaining his desire. For the world never was imperishable, nor, for that matter, was he who made the world. For things are not imperishable, but sons are. Nothing will be able to receive imperishability if it does not first become a son. But he who has not the ability to receive, how much more will he be unable to give?"- Gospel of Philip

Imperfect will never create perfection. Man (and this Aeon of physical) will die. Only perfect can be imperishable. This is Spirit.

 

[Jim]

The point you bring here is what we call dharma in Hinduism. ... Following the teachings of the faith or trusted spiritual master, such as non-violence, sva-dharma (one's duty towards family, neighbors, society, humankind, living beings, environment AND OneSelf,,,) is important,

If you have faith , it is a gift (partly earned, partly a gift)
Then if faith develops into bhakti (devotion) that is an even sweeter gift from the Divine, because the Divine reciprocates in proportion to your faith.
If this bhakti turns universal and develops jnAna (spiritual knowledge) that is the ultimate and leads to enlightenment.

Can you give me some examples of how people practice and promote the teachings you're following, in their daily life, from your life or the lives of people you know?

 

[ameyAtmA]

Can you give me some examples of how people practice and promote the teachings you're following, in their daily life, from your life or the lives of people you know?

The following methods are taught in Hinduism, especially introduced by Shri KRshNa in the Bhagvad Geeta and are pretty much common across all paramparA (traditions).

1. Karma Yoga The path of right action, selfless as far as possible, without focusing/dwelling on the outcome - good or bad. i.e. you plan a project, of course there will be a result, and you can expect it too. However, note that the outcome is not in our hands. It will be what it will be.

2. Bhakti Yoga The path of devotion, first starts with faith in the Supreme, devotion to the Supreme, Love for the Supreme, and a strong relationship with the Supreme. To develop these, one can chant Holy Names, call the Supreme, sing praises, venerate, rejoice in the Supreme, collectively glorify the Supreme...
In the process, one develops love for fellow beings and compassion, softens the heart more, and starts losing focus on very mundane and worldly things (while living in the world and doing their duty)

Bhakti matures in working for the Supreme , in alignment with Divine Will, and seeing, bowing to the Divine in each heart

3. Raja Yoga This is focused specifically on meditation inside oneself, quietening the mind, mind chatter, and seeking the spiritual - the AtmA within. Elevating the person to higher levels of being

4. JnAna (dnyAna) Yoga This is the path of spiritual knowledge - as emphasized in the Upanishads - and Self Realization. Starts with matter-spirit analysis (sAnkhya yog) , contemplation on one's True i.e. Permanent nature - not the body, mind, intellect, brain, that is temporary and going to die one day - but sort out and seek the AtmA - the Self that is behind all this.

This leads to the realization of the Infinite Eternal Bramhan - the Source of Everything

vasudeva sutam devam |
kauMsa chANura mardanam |
devaki paramAnandam |
KRshNam vande jagadgurum ||

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

 

[ameyAtmA]

Gratitude - To Whom? or To What ?
All religions have the element of gratitude.
When an individual, group, society, nation, or the world possesses comforts and makes achievements, makes strides in scientific discoveries and inventions, who is the Ultimate receiving end of the credit?

Credit for achievement X goes to ?

Can one pinpoint the Ultimate Source of their accomplishments?

The ancient sages and seers of India saw this Source of the Universe as the One deserving credit for "my health", "my house" "my car" "my chariot" "my cattle" "my horses" "my wife" "my kids" ... "my inventions" "my discoveries" "

See the "my" and "our" in these illusory remarks?
Don't all religions say grace, thank, show gratitude to Whoever or Whatever for the food we get to eat?
So Who-What is the Ultimate Source to which the credit goes for everything in the manifest World ?

This Ultimate Source of all intelligence, Love, power, strength, wisdom, abilities, morals, Duty, Goodness, luck, phenomena is a Unanimous Universal Pool , Infinite Database of Grace and Everflowing Nectar, which the ancient Indian Seers called Bramhan, ParamAtmA, Parameshwar, BhagavAn.
Others called that Source God, Allah, YHWH etc.

This attitude of gratitude to the Ultimate Source of All is what our ancients taught us. This is God. The rest of the extensions that contradict or trouble people does not touch this factor of gratitude.

If a spiritual person's third eye opens, they are a seer, they see future, things in the distance, they hear things far away. The Source of this gift is the Universal Divine, call it a Collective Pool, God-Collective, Bramhan, whatever.

This is the most Divine method to transcend the ego. [*To the Hindus, particularly VaishNav, or those sailing on these waves, a reminder that this is the summary , saar, of ChatuhShloki BhAgvat - the super-condensed form of BhAgvat PurAN that Lord NArAyaN taught BramhA so that He as the appointed Engineer of Universe does not develop ego and egotism that "I, BramhA, created this Universe" ]

The shlokas and mantras, prayers revealed in the Vedas, many times end in the word namah: which is short for na mama = Not Mine.

This that I "have", "posses" , "can do" "can achieve" "this potential" is not mine, O Lord, it is Yours.

This is the bottom line - at least of Hindu thought - Vaidic (of Vedas) Hindu Dharma.
We see this concept in other world religions as well - as a common ground.

ALL religions are showing their gratitude to the same One Universal Infinite Pool of Goodness. I just realized something today - that final "click" although 99% of it was known already, there was a click.

Many years ago I had written a poem deriving on this namah: but at the time I was doing that out of Love for my Personal Lord, Shri KRshNa who is and was Everything to me. I had not fully understood how Shri KRshNa is none but that very Universal Source of Everything, Bramhan.

Nothing is mine, Everything is Yours, My Beloved Lord,
This that I am writing is also inspired and fueled by You...

|| om GovindAya namah: ||

 

[Jim]

This Ultimate Source of all intelligence, Love, power, strength, wisdom, abilities, morals, Duty, Goodness, luck, phenomena is a Unanimous Universal Pool , Infinite Database of Grace and Everflowing Nectar, which the ancient Indian Seers called Bramhan, ParamAtmA, Parameshwar, BhagavAn.
Others called that Source God, Allah, YHWH etc.

ALL religions are showing their gratitude to the same One Universal Infinite Pool of Goodness. I just realized this today.

I think that might correspond more to what Christians call the “Holy Spirit.”

 

[ameyAtmA]

I think that might correspond more to what Christians call the “Holy Spirit.”

Maybe.
I understand it as it is the Same Ultimate source who has become the Holy Spirit or paramAtmA in all hearts.

To me it looks like this:

Bramhan = The Ultimate Source of Everything, The Infinite Database Pool of all Potential, transcendant factor
Ishvar = When the Same Bramhan appears as a Supreme Person, still remaining trasncendent to material universe. So far so good.

ParamAtmA = the Same Bramhan, Same Ishvar, as immanent in the apparent manifested = Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit
Lives in all "hearts" of all living beings as their AtmA and guides them, bears Witness, gives intuition etc.
However, He is ParamAtmA - the Highest AtmA , like the Sun that shines on all. Rays reach everyone.

Anyhow, isn't it logical to say that the Source of Everything is the Ultimate Object of Gratitude? In whatever form? (Bhagvad Geeta Chap 9 - All prayers to any conceptualization of ME Ultimately reach ME ) -- so it is finally the attitude that counts ?

 

[Jim]

Anyhow, isn't it logical to say that the Source of Everything is the Ultimate Object of Gratitude? In whatever form? (Bhagvad Geeta Chap 9 - All prayers to any conceptualization of ME Ultimately reach ME ) -- so it is finally the attitude that counts ?

Agreed.