Scriptural argument for the Apostasy

[Scott1]

I may be wrong, but from what I understand they selected the writings they did because they had greatest confidence that those writings/teachings were those actually by the ordained Apostles.

I think a little more research would be a good thing.... they selected writings that fit with their (early Roman/Orthodox Catholic Bishops) theological views.... which is why I brought up the argument over Hebrews as an example that even to this day, the Canon is not 100% uniform.

Though I believe the true authority, doctrines, etc had been taken from the earth, I believe many early Christians (and current Christians for that matter) were/are honestly doing the best they knew how and will definitely be rewarded for it.

If this is what you folks honestly expect me to believe, sorry.... I can't swallow that one.... but I do appreciate that you expect them to be "rewarded" for it.

I guess we just have two different definitions for what "apostasy" actually means..... you say that you believe that Christianity over the first 1800 +/- years was without "true authority, doctrines, etc".......... wait a tick...... yes, it seems we actually do agree on what apostasy means...... and I find LDS theology to be hateful and arrogant.

To tell every other Christian group on the planet that they have been without "true authority".... without "true doctrines, etc" .... most certainly must mean that they have had a relationship with God that was IN ERROR. We must be .... why else send you folks a prophet and your new bible?

I just wish today's LDS members would just have the courage to be honest.... like the Mormans of the first 50 years of your faith... and say what you mean without this tap-dancing, PC garbage.

Peace be with you all,
Scott

 

[Squirt]

I find LDS theology to be hateful and arrogant.

I don't quite understand what it is about our "theology" that is hateful and arrogant, if that's what you really mean. If you are saying that we as individuals are hateful and arrogant, that makes me feel really bad. I've never considered myself to be a hateful and arrogant person, just one who happens to believe the doctrines of the Church I belong to.

To tell every other Christian group on the planet that they have been without "true authority".... without "true doctrines, etc" .... most certainly must mean that they have had a relationship with God that was IN ERROR. We must be .... why else send you folks a prophet and your new bible?

I don't see authority and doctrines as having the remotest thing to do with one's personal relationship with God. Furthermore, don't you, as a Catholic, believe that Protestants are without true authority and true doctrines? I thought you did.

I just wish today's LDS members would just have the courage to be honest.... like the Mormans of the first 50 years of your faith... and say what you mean without this tap-dancing, PC garbage.

And I just wish that people who do not know me personally would be considerate enough to refrain from accusing me of being dishonest. I am an honest person. I tell it the way I see it. And I find your attitude towards me to be far, far more hateful than mine is towards you.

Peace be with you all,
Scott

Now that's a hard one for me to swallow.

 

[Scott1]

I don't quite understand what it is about our "theology" that is hateful and arrogant,

I'm trying to educate you about that.... and please don't try to turn this around on me... I've got over 5,000 posts for you to read if you'd like to read how much I love and respect my LDS brothers and sisters..... those members who know that calling me and my Church "apostate" is not the best way to make nice on the forum.... if you feel that the best way you can represent the LDS faith on this forum is to attack other Christians under the (however sincere) guise of just chatting about "doctrines" then I guess I'll just speak to other LDS members who are a bit more charitable.

I don't see authority and doctrines as having the remotest thing to do with one's personal relationship with God.

Wow... this is gonna come back to haunt you.

Furthermore, don't you, as a Catholic, believe that Protestants are without true authority and true doctrines? I thought you did.

You thought wrong.

Now that's a hard one for me to swallow.

I'm sorry, dear one..... being called "apostate" brings out the worst in me.... please don't doubt my love for you for a minute.

Charity above all else,
Scott

 

[Squirt]

I'm trying to educate you about that.... and please don't try to turn this around on me... I've got over 5,000 posts for you to read if you'd like to read how much I love and respect my LDS brothers and sisters..... those members who know that calling me and my Church "apostate" is not the best way to make nice on the forum.... if you feel that the best way you can represent the LDS faith on this forum is to attack other Christians under the (however sincere) guise of just chatting about "doctrines" then I guess I'll just speak to other LDS members who are a bit more charitable.

Suit yourself. I don't intend to read your 5000 posts looking for your love. As for the other "more charitable" members of my Church, who might they be? The ones who haven't contributed to this particular thread perhaps. Again, I apologize if my commitment to my faith offends you. It was certainly not my intention.

I'm sorry, dear one..... being called "apostate" brings out the worst in me.... please don't doubt my love for you for a minute.

I see. You don't like the word "apostate," but you wish I would have the courage to say what I mean without PC garbage. I think what you really want from me is complete silence on this topic.

Incidentally, I never did call you an "apostate." I said I believe that "an apostasy" occurred in the early Church. That's what I believe. That's me being honest. I don't believe for a minute that your relationship with God is in any way inferior to mine or that I am destined to end up in a better place than you are. That's also me being honest. I'm sorry that you can't see how both of these statements can be true, but they are.

 

[Scott1]

I think what you really want from me is complete silence on this topic.

Nah.... it looks like you are having a good time and a good debate with sojourner.... keep it up.... but don't I have the right to express my opinion and faith as well? That's all.... no more, no less.

I don't believe for a minute that your relationship with God is in any way inferior to mine or that I am destined to end up in a better place than you are. That's also me being honest. I'm sorry that you can't see how both of these statements can be true, but they are.

Cool... that's is great to hear.... so in other words: ... if there are any readers out there who were thinking about leaving the Catholic Church to become LDS, they might as well stay put.... right?

No one is better than the other and a person can have just as good a relationship with God as a Roman Catholic, a Baptist, Jew, Muslim, or whatever as they would have as a member of the Mormon faith.... that about right, still?

Please... continue your honesty... I find it refreshing... God bless you.
Scott

 

[nutshell]

I was hoping to join this thread, but, I've got to be honest...Scott, your sarcasm is killing me (and not in a good way). You don't think the LDS faith is the "true church" anymore than we think you are. Why do you have to take that so personally? We each have our views, we can debate about it, hopefully there can be some mutual understanding, but, if not, we just move on. Obviously, LDS have to support the apostasy theory for their faith/religion to work and you have to be against the notion for yours. The bottom line is we all need to do the best we can with the light we have. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Squirt]

don't I have the right to express my opinion and faith as well?

Yes, of course you do, although it seems to me that a better use of your time and talents would be to post some evidence that an apostasy never took place than to use them telling me I'm hateful and arrogant.

Cool... that's is great to hear.... so in other words: ... if there are any readers out there who were thinking about leaving the Catholic Church to become LDS, they might as well stay put.... right?

No, if a Catholic were to decide that he could more easily accept the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than he could the doctrines of Roman Catholicism, he should not "stay put." I would say the same thing to a Latter-day Saint who was considering converting to Catholicism. While I would feel bad that he could no longer accept the doctrines and practices of Mormonism, I would never encourage him to stay in a religion that didn't feel right to him. We all have to find the path that we can personally feel right about.

No one is better than the other and a person can have just as good a relationship with God as a Roman Catholic, a Baptist, Jew, Muslim, or whatever as they would have as a member of the Mormon faith.... that about right, still?

Yes, in my own opinion, that is absolutely right. That is sincerely how I feel. You see, as firm as my own convictions are, I am willing to admit that I am walking by faith, just like everybody else. When I stand before God to be judged, I hope that He will not be too awfully hard on me if I happen to have picked the "wrong" religion. Of course, I hope that won't be the case. At the very least, I want to be able to hear Him say, "You did the best you could. You didn't waver. You stood for what you believed."

 

[Scott1]

Scott, your sarcasm is killing me (and not in a good way).

I'd prefer not to have personal attacks thrown my way if you please.... don't like RCC theology? Fine. Say so.... but I'm trying to debate MY WAY, and if that makes you uncomfortable even though I've only made reference to LDS theology and mentioned how much I love LDS members personally (including the Godfather of one of my children, by the way) then please stay out of the thread.

You don't think the LDS faith is the "true church" anymore than we think you are.

Until we are all ONE church, there is no such thing as the TRUE church.

So AGAIN, please don't try to tell me what I believe.

Obviously, LDS have to support the apostasy theory for their faith/religion to work and you have to be against the notion for yours.

OBVIOUSLY>>>> ??? Not at all... if apostasy means what Squirt is proposing, then I'll be happy to jump on the early church apostasy bandwagon... it becomes quite meaningless.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Amen.

 

[Scott1]

At the very least, I want to be able to hear Him say, "You did the best you could. You didn't waver. You stood for what you believed."

Forgive me... I have judged your theology wrong.... I am in total agreement.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott

 

[Squirt]

Forgive me... I have judged your theology wrong.... I am in total agreement.

Your brother in Christ,
Scott

No problem. :hug:

Squirt

 

[nutshell]

I'd prefer not to have personal attacks thrown my way if you please.... don't like RCC theology? Fine. Say so.... but I'm trying to debate MY WAY, and if that makes you uncomfortable even though I've only made reference to LDS theology and mentioned how much I love LDS members personally (including the Godfather of one of my children, by the way) then please stay out of the thread.

I wasn't aware I made a personal attack. My apologies if you interpreted it that way.

Until we are all ONE church, there is no such thing as the TRUE church.

Actually, IMO, you're wrong, and I believe there is scriptural evidence to prove it, but, as always, it will come down to different interpretations of Biblical passages.

So AGAIN, please don't try to tell me what I believe.

So would it be wrong for me to say you don't believe in the apostasy?

OBVIOUSLY>>>> ??? Not at all... if apostasy means what Squirt is proposing, then I'll be happy to jump on the early church apostasy bandwagon... it becomes quite meaningless.

May I ask, what do you think Squirt is proposing?

 

[Squirt]

Guys... (including Sojourner) I'm outta here. Winning this argument is not my numero uno priority. I'd rather be proven wrong than make enemies over this issue.

 

[Scott1]

I wasn't aware I made a personal attack. My apologies if you interpreted it that way.

Accepted.

Actually, IMO, you're wrong, and I believe there is scriptural evidence to prove it, but, as always, it will come down to different interpretations of Biblical passages.

Ummm... I was responding to your assertion that I believe the RCC to be the "true church".... and you decide to ignore the context and just tell me I'm wrong? :banghead3

So would it be wrong for me to say you don't believe in the apostasy?

I do now.

May I ask, what do you think Squirt is proposing?

Scroll up and read it... I'm a huge fan of the idea "When I stand before God to be judged, I hope that He will not be too awfully hard on me if I happen to have picked the "wrong" religion."

Omnes cum Petro - All with Peter,
Scott

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

No one is better than the other and a person can have just as good a relationship with God as a Roman Catholic, a Baptist, Jew, Muslim, or whatever as they would have as a member of the Mormon faith.... that about right, still?

Please... continue your honesty... I find it refreshing... God bless you.
Scott

the difference is, people can convince other people to come to there church and convert, in the lds only god can though the holy ghost the members and the missionaries tell the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. and though the holy ghost can a change in heart take place and only though a change of heart can you understand all thing spritly, i believe there is truth in all religions and beliefs, as i study the different beliefs i see the simulates and the differences. and all people take a different roots to find the same thing the one answer that is in god. i don't only think this to be true i know it to be true. that is why the lds church is the fasted growing church in the world. The other thing that I might mention and this came form a friend that is lds that converted, he started going to a Lutheran church because it felt right, he started hanging out with some lds single in the single ward a few years later. He later realized that the person that he wanted to become is like there friends he started to wonder why the church that he went to felt right and now not. The answer is he needed to learn something there to be able the find the fullness of the gospel. It isn’t the one belief is wrong or right, there is one thing that I found that is missing in most churches and that is the sprit of god. Some churches do I find the area that I live in most of the churches have the sprit of god because there keeping the commandments to the best of there understanding. I have always be complemented on the persona that I glow with I have been stopped a few time. My new boss asked there is a feeling that I find peaceful with, when I told him what religion I belonged to he said you folks always have a good sprit with you. When it come to the apostasy it is about prophecy and the renewing of the world to better serve God. So what ever your journey may take you good luck and may the holy ghost light the path that you need at this time…

 

[Scott1]

So what ever your journey may take you good luck and may the holy ghost light the path that you need at this time…

Interesting... thanks for your post... it seems we have some disagreement with what Squirt is telling me..... oh well... I like his version better.

May the Immaculate Mother of God pray for you and yours,
Scott

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

Interesting... thanks for your post... it seems we have some disagreement with what Squirt is telling me..... oh well... I like his version better.

May the Immaculate Mother of God pray for you and yours,
Scott

remember the only way to find the fullness of the gosple is to learn, ponder and then when all is done pray... i just noticed the my friend never know the lds chruch untel he meet a single ward his first stop was a luthern chruch and the the lds i thank the wording might be a bit confusing...

 

[Scott1]

remember the only way to find the fullness of the gosple is to learn, ponder and then when all is done pray... i just noticed the my friend never know the lds chruch untel he meet a single ward his first stop was a luthern chruch and the the lds i thank the wording might be a bit confusing...

Amen... I understand what you are saying totally....

And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen. (ALMA 7:27)

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

And now, may the peace of God rest upon you, and upon your houses and lands, and upon your flocks and herds, and all that you possess, your women and your children, according to your faith and good works, from this time forth and forever. And thus I have spoken. Amen. (ALMA 7:27)

good quote!!! :clap

 

[Polaris]

I think a little more research would be a good thing.... they selected writings that fit with their (early Roman/Orthodox Catholic Bishops) theological views.... which is why I brought up the argument over Hebrews as an example that even to this day, the Canon is not 100% uniform.

You bring up an interesting idea - I'll definitely research it out a little more.

I guess we just have two different definitions for what "apostasy" actually means..... you say that you believe that Christianity over the first 1800 +/- years was without "true authority, doctrines, etc".......... wait a tick...... yes, it seems we actually do agree on what apostasy means...... and I find LDS theology to be hateful and arrogant.

To tell every other Christian group on the planet that they have been without "true authority".... without "true doctrines, etc" .... most certainly must mean that they have had a relationship with God that was IN ERROR. We must be .... why else send you folks a prophet and your new bible?

Look, the whole reason I started this thread was to spark a debate on the apostasy because I enjoy the thrill of debate and the topic is one I feel strongly about. In no way did I do it with the intention of pointing fingers and explicitly declaring the members of the Catholic church to be apostate. Sojourner has provided some interesting points that argue his position. Althought I don't necessarily agree with everything that he as presented I have gained more respect for him. In 90% of religious topics I bet we agree, but that would make the debate no fun so I chose a topic that would emphasize our differnces to make for an interesting debate. Also throughout debate good counterpoints are made and it causes me to research into the issue (like your point on the selection of N.T. writings). Again if I posted something that came across as hateful please point it out to me, by no means was that my intention.

I just wish today's LDS members would just have the courage to be honest.... like the Mormans of the first 50 years of your faith... and say what you mean without this tap-dancing, PC garbage.

I feel I have been honest. Everything I have presented is what I honestly believe. I'm at a loss here, when I present my belief in the apostasy you call me hateful, yet when I try to assure you that God will consider our honest intentions in doing the best we know how, you say I'm tap-dancing. The bottom line is God gave commandments and established ordinances (along with proper authority) that we are to accept and adhere to. If we honestly do our best to comply He will make up the difference by allowing us full opportunity in the end to accept the truth in its purity.

 

[Scott1]

You bring up an interesting idea - I'll definitely research it out a little more.

Good to hear it.

As far as everything else, accept my apology. Squirt and I worked everything out last night. It does not seem that too many other LDS members agree with his theology (it seems you do - which is terrific) , but it suits me just fine.

Peace be with you,
Scott