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Sclavus' Journal

Sclavus

Member
I feel the need to get this out of my head. We'll see how far I get. Let's call this "Part 1." What follows could be a TRIGGER for some.

People unfortunately often get their education about mental illness from the worst places. They talk to bad therapists, school counselors, pastors, and the Internet. They watch movies and somehow manage to think that mental illness comes with a lot of rocking, muttering, and violent outbursts.

It can, but it's often more subtle. Looking back, I can see bipolar and PTSD in my life as early as first grade, when somebody touched me for the first time. Nobody knew why, but the mild-mannered kid with the disability started acting out. Picking fights. Lying. He still wet the bed, and he was sick a lot.

The church that had been a haven for me said, "Fix your attitude!" The school turned a blind eye until they couldn't, then handed me to Mom and Dad, who did a lot of yelling and more hitting than I care to remember. But I got touched again, in a different and far more confusing way, until I was twelve years old. My behavior grew steadily worse, until my teachers threatened to have me expelled (for spilling soap shavings on the carpet).

I was diagnosed in the Year of the Ritalin. ADD, they said, and off I went with my pills. Only, the thing that should have helped made it all so much worse. No one understood, and for reasons I still don't understand, I didn't connect the dots. All I knew was what I was told: I was unworthy of God's love, ungrateful for my family's love, and lazy, to boot. No one understood how I could be so smart and be such a bad kid, but the kids at school had it on good authority I was a retard, a moron, and of course, I was obviously gay.

Talking about those years is difficult, so I'm going to drop it there for now. I'll pick up where I left off when I feel up to it. For now, here's one of my favorite songs. I feel a bit better.
Edited to continue.

I was never a saint in responding to my peers. I threw back insults, which surely made things worse for me. I didn't understand why I was under attack from seemingly everyone I knew. There was a part of me that knew many of the accusations were true, but another part of me believed every word.

Getting away from my first school helped, like I said, but only in the way pulling a shark attack victim from the shark helps; the damage had been done, and I was on my way to a slow bleed. I had no doubts of my diagnosis. I was depressed. I'd been that way for as long as I could remember. I had nightmares, and my organizational problems followed me on to my new school, so I barely graduated.

I was obviously stupid. I was obviously unworthy. Though very few of my new peers would call my sexuality into question, they focused on the fact I just wasn't much to look at, in any sense. People befriended me out of pity, not out of any real desire to know me.

And so it was, I continued into my late teens and all of my twenties with untreated damage. At some point I'd concluded the church couldn't or wouldn't help. I confessed my problems to peers at church, only to have my confidence compromised. I was told time and time again I was unworthy of God's love, but He loved me anyway. And yet I was also treated with disdain by those who claimed they wanted to help.

By and large, my experience with church resulted in more anger in my heart. I tried to follow advice, only to be told I wasn't good enough. To the Southern Baptists, nothing was ever good enough. To Calvary Chapel, I was just broken, and feeling that way was a sign of my salvation. The Presbyterians just told me God works in mysterious ways. The Assembly of God told me I lacked faith.

I concluded that I loved God, but didn't care for His people, but I had a nagging doubt: what if this was all just a way of controlling people? After struggling with stagnation, I declared myself an agnostic, which is when the skies cleared up enough for me to see God was there. I wrestled with God, but eventually returned to Him.

I tried to return to church, but I found even the sight of a sanctuary could give me stomach problems. I'd been diagnosed with PTSD and bipolar disorder, on top of a very likely executive function disorder and some physical health problems. In light of all that, I noticed my health diminished the more I fought to attend church, so I stopped.

Unfortunately, the (metaphorical) demons in my head were still going strong, and about a year ago I snapped. Long story short, I tried to kill myself based on false beliefs. There again, the church was a miserable comforter in the aftermath. The further I got away from well-intended church efforts to help me, the better off I was.

Even now, many of my former, fellow congregants won't talk to me. There's a lot of rumors and speculation. I still wrestle with the demons in my brain, though I win the battles more often. I'm not given to religious practices--praying habitually or reading my Bible regularly--but I have seen and experienced enough to know my belief is solid.

Telling this story runs the risk of rousing the demons, and that's why I had to take a break. At the same time, it helps to turn the light on them. What I've learned is, individuals can be great allies, but religious people generally ruffle my feathers when they try to fix problems they're ill-equipped to handle.

I've also learned to pop the Christian bubble I grew up in. The churches I attended were run on fear, and would encourage people to run away from "worldly things," as if listening to Marilyn Manson would make your ears bleed or going into a bar would make your skin rot off. There's a cultural expectation that those who would be welcomed by the church come to it crawling on their knees, professing their own wretchedness.

I've got scars (literal and metaphorical) from my journey. It doesn't end in an emotional victory with a musical number and stage lights. It goes on, one day at a time, one moment at a time. But, I cannot return to the church I once knew. I wouldn't want to, though I love the people in it. There isn't a place for me there.

I've settled for myself that God exists, and it's His Word (that is, Jesus Christ) that matters, not a religion's interpretation of the Bible. I endured a lot of crap to get where I'm at, but it makes me love people, even if I don't like them very much. The church, in its subtle way, encouraged fear and bias, whereas I've found love and grace more often from non-Christians, or from people who have become "secondhand saints" like myself.

We--the secondhand saints--have often been abused. We've been spurned by churches, yet it's somehow broken down our faith and rebuilt it. What faith we have isn't pretty, and it shows signs of wear and tear, but it's built for function, not ornamentation. Our faith isn't better than another's, but perhaps stronger and better equipped to deal with the world.

The important thing, I suppose, is I'm still here, kicking and fighting, refusing to give up the war no matter how often I lose my battles.
 
Last edited:

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Your backstory would make anyone break down but you've chosen to lift others up. If you are at peace with your faith beliefs, that's what matters most. :sunflower:
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Some things in your past really resonate with me. Though I can't even begin to know what it's like living with PTSD or bipolar.. if you don't mind my asking, was it a particular church you grew up with? For people who grew up Jehovah's Witnesses 'worldly things' is one of those common used phrases that 'pings' the radar, so to speak.

All the same, is wish you the strength and grace it takes to continue on your journey. :)
 

Sclavus

Member
Some things in your past really resonate with me. Though I can't even begin to know what it's like living with PTSD or bipolar.. if you don't mind my asking, was it a particular church you grew up with? For people who grew up Jehovah's Witnesses 'worldly things' is one of those common used phrases that 'pings' the radar, so to speak.

All the same, is wish you the strength and grace it takes to continue on your journey. :)
It was the Southern Baptist church I grew up with that did the most damage. I was traumatized by my peers at school, mostly, as well as the person who did things to me. The church merely turned a blind eye to it.

One thing I've learned about people is that what they say and do shows their true beliefs, and people will often fight to say they don't believe something when their consistent words and actions show they do believe it. Many people don't realize what their core beliefs are because they aren't bothered to examine them.

Consequently, most of the people in the church I grew up in don't believe in mental illness. They've been taught to see behavior as a matter of wilful choice. To them, bad behavior is a matter of a bad attitude, a sinful desire. The idea that an illness could cause someone to act out is foreign to them.

Add to that the idea they've added rules to Scripture by twisting specific passages, and they've created an alternate reality they find comfortable. It's easier for them if they can lump a non-sinful thing in with "the appearance of evil," and if they can avoid what they don't like under the idea of "resisting the devil." In the end, they ignore significant portions of Scripture, and look down upon those who question why those portions are ignored.

People will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their delusions. We resist change. We shun what makes us uncomfortable. There's no room for mental illness in many denominations of Christianity, so it simply does not exist. Those with mental illness just have unwilling spirits, and we have to remind them of it. They obviously don't realize just how unworthy they are, how much God loves them in spite of how worthless they are.

Unfortunately I've seen great abuses of power, and I've seen entire congregations work to ignore what's in front of them. Oddly, the delusions are easier to reinforce with a crowd than with an individual. I don't hate Christians, but I don't like them as a whole, either. I like some individuals.
 

Sclavus

Member
It'll be nice when I can play this on piano and mean it. I've had it stuck in my head this morning. It's a sad song, a happy song, a love song...so many things.

 

Sclavus

Member
@Deidre recently said something in her journal about tuning out when Christians quote Scripture. That makes sense to me. For my part, I believe the parts of the Bible I understand, though there's always room for greater understanding. I could quote Scripture for a lot of things, but I find that troublesome.

For one, it comes across as preaching. In college, I wrote research papers. The point of a research paper isn't to offer one's personal opinion, but to cover an array of authoritative conclusions on a subject. You start by addressing, say, a point of debate on a subject. Then you bring up an authoritative statement from someone who has credentials in that subject. After that, you quote a statement from a different authority, and everything should be nicely sourced and cited.

All that's well and good for a research paper, but it's not a conversation. When people want to know what you believe, they don't want to hear what Jesus or Paul or Saint Yippy of York has to say, they want to hear your opinion. The common Christian retort to this is, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it."

Um, no. Sorry, not sorry, but it doesn't. Say we're talking about Jesus. If I'm in a discussion with a Baptist, a Mormon, a Catholic, a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, and a Jew, we'll all have a different idea of who Jesus is. Yet we all might reference the Bible to support our claims. The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.

So, before the aforementioned group can have a productive discussion about Jesus, we have to have a discussion about biblical interpretation. That juxtaposes with a discussion about biblical inerrancy, issues with translation and interpretation, versions of history before, during, and after the Bible's eras, and it becomes a mess a lot of the time.

Furthermore, approaching somebody with the Gospel is ineffective unless we can convince that person of our source material. It is true to me that what the Bible says settles many issues for me, but I've been a Christian for more than twenty-five years, so I can hardly expect to cover how I've arrived at my conclusions in any short amount of time.

Add to that the problems with the evangelistic mentality. At first blush for a Christian, knocking on doors or approaching strangers seems like a good enough idea. We don't want people to go to Hell, after all. Unfortunately, doing that makes people feel cornered. We also have a tendency to use tracts, programs, and canned speeches to present the Gospel, for the sake of making it easier.

The problem with making a presentation is, it doesn't tell the person we're talking to anything about us, unless we go off the script. It also effectively turns the Gospel into a sales pitch. Vacuum salesmen use a very similar format. But when it comes to what we Christians claim is the most important decision a person can make, it has a shyster feel when we talk about that decision like sales people.

We're told in Scripture to have an answer for the hope within us, for the people who ask us. Unfortunately that gets run over by The Great Commission bandwagon, which isn't for us as modern Christians. The Great Commission was for Jesus' disciples, who did as instructed: they traveled and made disciples. The mandates for modern Christians came through those disciples who fulfilled The Great Commission.

Our job as modern Christians is to be a light. There's nothing inherently wrong with sharing our faith, but we treat people as projects when we approach them as strangers. Christians are often so afraid of the world, so concerned with "avoiding the appearance of evil," they look down upon the idea of being friends with non-Christians.

Yet Jesus showed us how it's done: go to parties. He turned water into wine, but maybe we could just drop by the liquor store and bring a six-pack of a good stout to the shindig. Jesus ate meals with "sinners and tax collectors." He went out and about among people, yet He didn't sacrifice His sanctity. It's entirely possible to eat a meal with non-Christian friends, just to have a good time.

If you have friends for long enough, religion is going to come up. One of these days, someone will ask you what you think. That's not the time to quote Scripture. That's the time to tell people about your life. Did you really come to Christ because you read a book? I doubt it. More likely, you read a book and saw its truth mirrored in the real world.

Jesus didn't go around quoting Scripture except to those who already believed it. He spoke to the Israelites with their own verses, showing them prophecies being fulfilled. He showed them ways to interpret what they already accepted as true. When Paul spoke to the people about a statue to an "unknown god," he used cultural references they would comprehend and identify with. The people who spoke effectively about God spoke the literal and cultural language of their audience.

It's good for Christians to know the Bible, but also know their interpretation could be wrong. It's also good for Christians to be in the world, without engaging in sin. To do that, we have to know what sin is and what it isn't, and where to draw the line. We have to get over our arrogance and fear, and love people enough to be their friends.

But, let's not be friends with non-Christians just to "save their souls." That would be treating them like a project. The New Testament says true religion is caring for widows and orphans (the "less fortunate," in other words). We should seek wisdom in meeting the immediate physical needs of people, seek to learn about them, seek to enjoy their company. What does it say about us if we're only willing to spend close, intimate time with someone after they become a Christian?

Of course, we should be cautious. Given that I have bipolar disorder, I probably shouldn't try going to parties at strip clubs. If you're an alcoholic, you shouldn't hang out with friends at a bar. But that doesn't mean we can't go see a movie, go to a barbecue, or enjoy activities with non-Christians in places where it's likely there will be non-Christian things going on.

It's our job as Christians to police ourselves. Light exists in the darkness, but it doesn't stretch beyond its limits. You can't light a whole building with one birthday candle. It's not our job to make sure everyone knows what we think is wrong with the world. It's our job to be a light in the darkness by making sure we control ourselves, not condemn the darkness around us. We've got enough sin to keep ourselves preoccupied on that front, and we only tarnish the light by trying to force it on others.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
@Deidre recently said something in her journal about tuning out when Christians quote Scripture. That makes sense to me. For my part, I believe the parts of the Bible I understand, though there's always room for greater understanding. I could quote Scripture for a lot of things, but I find that troublesome.

For one, it comes across as preaching. In college, I wrote research papers. The point of a research paper isn't to offer one's personal opinion, but to cover an array of authoritative conclusions on a subject. You start by addressing, say, a point of debate on a subject. Then you bring up an authoritative statement from someone who has credentials in that subject. After that, you quote a statement from a different authority, and everything should be nicely sourced and cited.

All that's well and good for a research paper, but it's not a conversation. When people want to know what you believe, they don't want to hear what Jesus or Paul or Saint Yippy of York has to say, they want to hear your opinion. The common Christian retort to this is, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it."

Um, no. Sorry, not sorry, but it doesn't. Say we're talking about Jesus. If I'm in a discussion with a Baptist, a Mormon, a Catholic, a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, and a Jew, we'll all have a different idea of who Jesus is. Yet we all might reference the Bible to support our claims. The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.

So, before the aforementioned group can have a productive discussion about Jesus, we have to have a discussion about biblical interpretation. That juxtaposes with a discussion about biblical inerrancy, issues with translation and interpretation, versions of history before, during, and after the Bible's eras, and it becomes a mess a lot of the time.

Furthermore, approaching somebody with the Gospel is ineffective unless we can convince that person of our source material. It is true to me that what the Bible says settles many issues for me, but I've been a Christian for more than twenty-five years, so I can hardly expect to cover how I've arrived at my conclusions in any short amount of time.

Add to that the problems with the evangelistic mentality. At first blush for a Christian, knocking on doors or approaching strangers seems like a good enough idea. We don't want people to go to Hell, after all. Unfortunately, doing that makes people feel cornered. We also have a tendency to use tracts, programs, and canned speeches to present the Gospel, for the sake of making it easier.

The problem with making a presentation is, it doesn't tell the person we're talking to anything about us, unless we go off the script. It also effectively turns the Gospel into a sales pitch. Vacuum salesmen use a very similar format. But when it comes to what we Christians claim is the most important decision a person can make, it has a shyster feel when we talk about that decision like sales people.

We're told in Scripture to have an answer for the hope within us, for the people who ask us. Unfortunately that gets run over by The Great Commission bandwagon, which isn't for us as modern Christians. The Great Commission was for Jesus' disciples, who did as instructed: they traveled and made disciples. The mandates for modern Christians came through those disciples who fulfilled The Great Commission.

Our job as modern Christians is to be a light. There's nothing inherently wrong with sharing our faith, but we treat people as projects when we approach them as strangers. Christians are often so afraid of the world, so concerned with "avoiding the appearance of evil," they look down upon the idea of being friends with non-Christians.

Yet Jesus showed us how it's done: go to parties. He turned water into wine, but maybe we could just drop by the liquor store and bring a six-pack of a good stout to the shindig. Jesus ate meals with "sinners and tax collectors." He went out and about among people, yet He didn't sacrifice His sanctity. It's entirely possible to eat a meal with non-Christian friends, just to have a good time.

If you have friends for long enough, religion is going to come up. One of these days, someone will ask you what you think. That's not the time to quote Scripture. That's the time to tell people about your life. Did you really come to Christ because you read a book? I doubt it. More likely, you read a book and saw its truth mirrored in the real world.

Jesus didn't go around quoting Scripture except to those who already believed it. He spoke to the Israelites with their own verses, showing them prophecies being fulfilled. He showed them ways to interpret what they already accepted as true. When Paul spoke to the people about a statue to an "unknown god," he used cultural references they would comprehend and identify with. The people who spoke effectively about God spoke the literal and cultural language of their audience.

It's good for Christians to know the Bible, but also know their interpretation could be wrong. It's also good for Christians to be in the world, without engaging in sin. To do that, we have to know what sin is and what it isn't, and where to draw the line. We have to get over our arrogance and fear, and love people enough to be their friends.

But, let's not be friends with non-Christians just to "save their souls." That would be treating them like a project. The New Testament says true religion is caring for widows and orphans (the "less fortunate," in other words). We should seek wisdom in meeting the immediate physical needs of people, seek to learn about them, seek to enjoy their company. What does it say about us if we're only willing to spend close, intimate time with someone after they become a Christian?

Of course, we should be cautious. Given that I have bipolar disorder, I probably shouldn't try going to parties at strip clubs. If you're an alcoholic, you shouldn't hang out with friends at a bar. But that doesn't mean we can't go see a movie, go to a barbecue, or enjoy activities with non-Christians in places where it's likely there will be non-Christian things going on.

It's our job as Christians to police ourselves. Light exists in the darkness, but it doesn't stretch beyond its limits. You can't light a whole building with one birthday candle. It's not our job to make sure everyone knows what we think is wrong with the world. It's our job to be a light in the darkness by making sure we control ourselves, not condemn the darkness around us. We've got enough sin to keep ourselves preoccupied on that front, and we only tarnish the light by trying to force it on others.

Hi Sclavus, when I was a practicing Christian, I didn't believe in judging and it's weird, but nothing about me really changed much when I left faith, or when I returned to it, other than internally, I felt a deeper sense of comfort from believing. I've always wondered...how does believing in a deity make a person ''behave'' better? I remember a conversation, it might have been on this forum, where the topic was about believers who would do anything they wished (indulge in the worst of sins even) if it was proven that a god didn't exist, and that for sure, we're on our own. I thought to myself...what? There are people who only 'do good' to avoid the wrath of a deity? lol It just seemed so out there. When faith is viewed as little more than a reward to seek or a punishment to avoid, why bother?

A question for you, though. This darkness that you talk about - do you believe that everyone who doesn't follow Christ, is lost in darkness? Or do you feel that darkness is just another word for sin, or mankind's ''fallen nature?'' Do you believe that faith is required for a person to become a light to others? That's more than one question. lol ^_^
 

Sclavus

Member
Hi Sclavus, when I was a practicing Christian, I didn't believe in judging and it's weird, but nothing about me really changed much when I left faith, or when I returned to it, other than internally, I felt a deeper sense of comfort from believing. I've always wondered...how does believing in a deity make a person ''behave'' better? I remember a conversation, it might have been on this forum, where the topic was about believers who would do anything they wished (indulge in the worst of sins even) if it was proven that a god didn't exist, and that for sure, we're on our own. I thought to myself...what? There are people who only 'do good' to avoid the wrath of a deity? lol It just seemed so out there. When faith is viewed as little more than a reward to seek or a punishment to avoid, why bother?

A question for you, though. This darkness that you talk about - do you believe that everyone who doesn't follow Christ, is lost in darkness? Or do you feel that darkness is just another word for sin, or mankind's ''fallen nature?'' Do you believe that faith is required for a person to become a light to others? That's more than one question. lol ^_^
I used to be one of those who behaved well to avoid God's wrath, but I came to realize how foolish that is. We should do good to do good, not to avoid wrath or earn rewards. Even as a Christian, wrath and reward are merely side effects, not my motivation for my actions. Faith doesn't change my behavior.

As for darkness, I don't think it's exclusive to non-Christians, nor is light exclusive to Christians. So many of my misguided brethren are quick to point out how "good works without faith" is meaningless. I don't agree. Gandhi wasn't a Christian, as far as I know, yet you'd be hard pressed to say he didn't do good. The same goes for Chester Bennington, whose music helped save lives.

I personally believe any good deed from anyone will ultimately reflect upon the goodness God gives us. We're made in His image, so there has to be a capacity for good, just as our fallen nature gives us a capacity for darkness. Many churches I've been in are metaphorically dark, yet I've been in places some would consider "sinful," where I've seen a lot of light.

My job as a Christian is to be a light in any darkness. As for people who don't follow Christ, I don't think their good deeds will grant them automatic salvation from Hell, but I also don't think going through the motions of Christianity will do that, either. Salvation isn't about our behavior.

I've seen light from atheists, who set a good example for Christians. When disaster strikes, I've seen Christians rush in to take advantage of the compromised emotions of the disaster victims. They do good works so those people will "praise God," and so they--the Christians--can feel like they're getting brownie points from the Almighty. That's not universally true, of course, but I've seen it plenty. Atheists, on the other hand, help disaster victims without the expectation of some eternal reward.

Good deeds are their own reward. We should do good regardless of what we'll get from it. That's what I do when I'm a light in the darkness: I see needs and do what I can to meet them, without expectations.
 

Sclavus

Member
Okay. So, more questions lol

What do you believe we are being ''saved'' from? Salvation from what?
Salvation from Hell.

I ask this because when I was a theist, I took much of the Bible, as mere allegory, ie: Genesis, and origin of man story. If God knows everything, why would he allow the very first people to ruin the lives of all generations, thereafter? Why not just punish Adam and Eve? If your neighbor murders someone, you don't take the fall for the crime, right? So, why should I and you, and everyone else take the fall for what our supposed first ancestors did? (I just believe it's an allegory for morality and obedience to God but let's say it's a literal story, for a moment) Why create the need for a Savior, when it's not the world's fault that Adam and Eve committed the first 'sin?'
God created us to have free will. He gave Adam and Eve the freedom to choose, because it's not in His nature to interfere in the choices of His creations. He didn't want mindless followers, but people who would choose to be His friends.

Once Adam and Eve screwed the pooch, sin became a part of life. They switched their default status from "not fallen" to "fallen." Unfortunately, people have this idea that God can do anything, but He can't. Just as He couldn't create us to be automotons, He couldn't accept sin among His friends without there being something to atone for it.

When Cain, Abel, and the other sons and daughters of Adam and Eve were born, they were born to fallen parents, so they were born on the same footing, spiritually, as their parents. And so it's gone on down the line. Yet, God knew they'd be fallen, but that they'd still have the choice to follow Him.

As to why it's not set up where, say, Cain and Abel and so on could be born perfect, I don't know. I suspect God knew humans would all fall eventually (monkey see, monkey do). If Cain was perfect and yet Adam and Eve were fallen, I suspect Cain would have fallen anyway. It's safe to assume Adam and Eve tried to guide their children correctly, and yet Cain still chose to murder Abel.

There are some things I don't understand about God, like the exact reasons why we pay the penalty for Adam and Eve's fork up. I can only speculate on that, and I'm sorry I can't give a satisfactory answer.

Actually, if the story is a mere allegory (many Christians believe it's an allegory and not literal, including the Catholic Church) then Jesus was sacrificed for an allegory? This is where the authors of the Bible could have used a proof-reader. lol

I'm not looking to debate you, but to ask you questions in hopes that you will understand why logically, Christianity doesn't make ''sense.'' (to me)

That's why I don't believe it is allegorical. As to whether it was six literal days, I don't know. I don't think that matters, but I do believe Adam and Eve sinned and were punished, and Christ was prophesied in the bit about Adam's descendant being bitten on the heel and yet crushing the serpent. There was metaphor in that prophecy, but it was still the first of many prophecies about Christ.

As to why God did things the way He did, waiting thousands of years to bring Christ in the flesh and so on, I don't know. I can see why it doesn't make sense to you; it doesn't entirely make sense to me, either. My faith is weak on those points, and I try to bolster my understanding, but there's a lot I still don't "get."
 
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