Scientists find beginnings of morality in other species

[Mathematician]

Some animals are surprisingly sensitive to the plight of others. Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others. Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days.

Biologists argue that these and other social behaviors are the precursors of human morality. They further believe that if morality grew out of behavioral rules shaped by evolution, it is for biologists, not philosophers or theologians, to say what these rules are.

Dr. de Waal, who is director of the Living Links Center at Emory University, argues that all social animals have had to constrain or alter their behavior in various ways for group living to be worthwhile. These constraints, evident in monkeys and even more so in chimpanzees, are part of human inheritance, too, and in his view form the set of behaviors from which human morality has been shaped.

Many philosophers find it hard to think of animals as moral beings, and indeed Dr. de Waal does not contend that even chimpanzees possess morality. But he argues that human morality would be impossible without certain emotional building blocks that are clearly at work in chimp and monkey societies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/20/science/20moral.html?em&ex=1174536000&en=5e5850fce54c420e&ei=5087

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days.

Which amoral ape conducted that experiment?!

 

[Quiddity]

They further believe that if morality grew out of behavioral rules shaped by evolution, it is for biologists, not philosophers or theologians, to say what these rules are.

What's this supposed to mean? What behavioral rules in relation to evolution are philosophers and theologians currently trying to encapsulate?

 

[Mathematician]

Which amoral ape conducted that experiment?!

Probably the people at Hersheys.

 

[Quiddity]

Last year Marc Hauser, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard, proposed in his book “Moral Minds” that the brain has a genetically shaped mechanism for acquiring moral rules, a universal moral grammar similar to the neural machinery for learning language.

Universal morality written in the hearts of men.....who'd of thunk?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Probably the people at Hersheys.

I wonder what a Klondike bar would have fared? :cover:

 

[fantome profane]

Universal morality written in the hearts of men.....who'd of thunk?

And apparently it is also written in the hearts of rhesus monkeys. Although that same experiment does cause me to question just how universal it is.

 

[Quiddity]

And apparently it is also written in the hearts of rhesus monkeys. Although that same experiment does cause me to question just how universal it is.

I highly doubt it's the same. Otherwise, I'd expect a monkey joing RF very shortly.

 

[fantome profane]

I highly doubt it's the same. Otherwise, I'd expect a monkey joing RF very shortly.

What does RF have to do with morality?

 

[ChristineES]

It would appear that the rhesus monkeys have more morals than the human beings who rigged up the test.

 

[Quiddity]

What does RF have to do with morality?

We discuss morality in here often.

 

[fantome profane]

We discuss morality in here often.

Yes of course we do, but simply being a member of a forum (even a forum as wonderful as this one) does not distinguish someone as being moral. Talking about morality does not make you moral, any more than talking about sports makes you an athlete. It is certainly not evidence that humans have a superior morality to other species, and as some have suggested there may be reason to believe the opposite. (although some species also behave in ways that humans would find utterly horrific)

 

[Quiddity]

Yes of course we do, but simply being a member of a forum (even a forum as wonderful as this one) does not distinguish someone as being moral. Talking about morality does not make you moral, any more than talking about sports makes you an athlete. It is certainly not evidence that humans have a superior morality to other species, and as some have suggested there may be reason to believe the opposite. (although some species also behave in ways that humans would find utterly horrific)

Of course not. I was simply attempting to be fecetious (horribly so) in hopes of actually having a monkey discuss it, not just behave what we interpret it to be.

Why makes you think human morality and monkey morality are on par?

 

[robtex]

wow great find Gene. Some good names to google for futher reading and debates on rf!

 

[fantome profane]

Of course not. I was simply attempting to be fecetious (horribly so) in hopes of actually having a monkey discuss it, not just behave what we interpret it to be.

Why makes you think human morality and monkey morality are on par?

Not necessarily saying that I do believe monkey morality is on par, not saying that I don’t. We do see evidence in other primates of love, compassion, self-sacrifice, commitment etc. But I have never heard of a monkey hooking someone up to electrodes.

Seriously there does seem to be a lot of evidence that human morality is the result of evolution and natural selection, but that leaves me at something of a loss. If what we call morality really is the result of natural selection, is it really morality? By what “moral standard” can we judge “morality”?

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others.

It could be argued that the likelyhood of a chimpanzee attempting to save a drowning companion would be directly proportional to how closely related they were and therefore how large a percentage of genes they share. Does a genetic imperative necessarily equate with what we as humans perceive as morality?
As to the other, if we rigged a couple of people up so that one couldn't get food without giving the other an electric shock, I'm not sure we'd get as 'moral' a result.

 

[Quiddity]

Not necessarily saying that I do believe monkey morality is on par, not saying that I don’t. We do see evidence in other primates of love, compassion, self-sacrifice, commitment etc. But I have never heard of a monkey hooking someone up to electrodes.

Seriously there does seem to be a lot of evidence that human morality is the result of evolution and natural selection, but that leaves me at something of a loss. If what we call morality really is the result of natural selection, is it really morality? By what “moral standard” can we judge “morality”?

My moral standard of course. Or how about yours? Seriously though, you see stuff like this in cats, dogs, and other animals.

 

[Aeiralo]

*snort*

If they put humans in cages, most likely they would have a different result.

That of the humans shocking other humans.

But yes, it seems that sometimes, animals have more morality than humans.

 

[Yerda]

Biologists argue that these and other social behaviors are the precursors of human morality. They further believe that if morality grew out of behavioral rules shaped by evolution, it is for biologists, not philosophers or theologians, to say what these rules are.

That there is some tasty bait. Oh, go theists, you know you want to...

 

[Yerda]

If what we call morality really is the result of natural selection, is it really morality?

Aye. 'Tis.