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Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

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usfan

Well-Known Member
You claimed that there is no evidence for magnetic field reversals. I pointed out that the directions of magnetism in the spreading sea floor is such evidence. You have ignored that. Or do you want me to give details on that?
You only speculated, or suggested it as a plausibility. That is not evidence that it happened.

Tectonic plates drift, turn, and move all around. How can you note the direction of magnetic fields in igneous rock, and declare, 'Earth's Flipping magnetic field!'?

That is not evidence, that is a plausibility dodge, with no evidence.

There is no mechanism for field reversals, no observation of this phenomena in any other magnetic field, and the drastic changes that this would impel would be catastrophic for almost all life. The tides, orbits, the moon.. too many factors affected by a glib speculation of 'Flipping Magnetic Poles!'

A reminder of the facts:

The half life of the earth's magnetic field has been calculated, based on measurements over the last couple of centuries.
From wiki:
Barnes claimed to calculate the half-life of the earth's magnetic field as approximately 1,400 years based on 130 years of empirical data.

This is based on an assumption of uniformity, during the last few millennia, which seems logical. There is no indication of other factors that could change the gradualism assumption for the earth's magnetic half life.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Please don't lie about me. Your education is clearly lacking. You do not understand the concept of scientific evidence and I offered to help you with that.

Please, don't. Have you lowered your posts to just trolling?

Instead of making false claims of speculation,

"LIAR!' 'FOOL!' 'TROLL!!"


ROFL!

The ad hominem based 'reply' of the impotent.

If you spent half as much time presenting evidence for your beliefs, as you do attacking those who question the science behind them, you'd have a little credibility as a rational debater. But your tired schtick of accusations and hysterical outrage, ad hominem, and deflection just outs you as a heckler.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You only speculated, or suggested it as a plausibility. That is not evidence that it happened.

No, he mentioned the evidence. Once again you confirm that you do not understand the concept of scientific evidence. Highly ironic since that term is in the title of this thread that you started. He even mentioned the evidence in the segment that you quoted.

Tectonic plates drift, turn, and move all around. How can you note the direction of magnetic fields in igneous rock, and declare, 'Earth's Flipping magnetic field!'?

Now there you at least asked a question. Plates don't "turn" that much. They do move. And the movement can be tracked by several means. Once again just because you don't know does not mean that others do not.
That is not evidence, that is a plausibility dodge, with no evidence.

There is no mechanism for field reversals, no observation of this phenomena in any other magnetic field, and the drastic changes that this would impel would be catastrophic for almost all life. The tides, orbits, the moon.. too many factors affected by a glib speculation of 'Flipping Magnetic Poles!'

A reminder of the facts:

The half life of the earth's magnetic field has been calculated, based on measurements over the last couple of centuries.
From wiki:
Barnes claimed to calculate the half-life of the earth's magnetic field as approximately 1,400 years based on 130 years of empirical data.

This is based on an assumption of uniformity, during the last few millennia, which seems logical. There is no indication of other factors that could change the gradualism assumption for the earth's magnetic half life.

More ranting and nonsense. The Earth's magnetic field does not have a half-life. If you don't understand something, such as the evidence for flipping poles then you should ask questions properly and politely. When you deny the evidence or claim "speculation" you put the burden of proof upon yourself.

Seriously dude, when scientists make claims they need to be able to back them up with evidence. Just slow your roll and try to think a little for once. Since you do not understand why scientists came to the conclusions that they did then you should be asking yourself how they know what they know.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"LIAR!' 'FOOL!' 'TROLL!!"


ROFL!

The ad hominem based 'reply' of the impotent.

If you spent half as much time presenting evidence for your beliefs, as you do attacking those who question the science behind them, you'd have a little credibility as a rational debater. But your tired schtick of accusations and hysterical outrage, ad hominem, and deflection just outs you as a heckler.
You are mistaken. Pointing out individual times that you lied or trolled is not name calling. In fact you are in effect lying once again by misrepresenting my posts. And sadly you still do not know what an ad hominem is. There was no ad hominem. My posts were accurate. Do we have to go over what an ad hominem fallacy is once again and how the corrections and observations of others are not ad hominems?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Even before plate tectonics came along geologists knew that the Earth's magnetic field reversed at times. For quite a while they studied the direction and strength of the Earth's magnetic field by the fields "frozen" in place by igneous rocks when they cooled. Here is one such article from 1960:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/abs/10.1098/rspa.1960.0110

Though one can't read the article the standard would be to take a sample from an outcrop and carefully measure and record the specimen's orientation. Analysis would be done in a lab in a magnetically shielded area. This evidence was part of the evidence used to confirm the budding (at that time) concept of continental drift.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The assumption of uniformity is still there, and is unwarranted.

Your own link posited:

the universe underwent a dramatic early period of expansion, growing by more than a trillion trillion-fold in less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a second.

This is not an assumption of uniformity, but of cosmic expansion and time relativity, where the current laws of physics did not apply.

If the universe 'expanded' in less than a trillionth of a second, and rock containing isotopes formed, how can you assume current uniform conditions?

We are not talking about the beginning of the universe (the Big Bang). We are talking currently about the beginning of the Earth. So the conditions (expansion, etc) are irrelevant.


Allegedly, the earth was also formed during the big bang. Are you suggesting another cosmic creation event? From what basis?

No, the Earth definitely was NOT formed during the Big Bang! The sin is a *third* generation star and the Earth formed along with it a *long* time after the Big Bang!

it wasn't a 'cosmic creation event', which implies something on the scale of galactic clusters or larger. This was a formation like we see today in certain nebula, which though quite large on the scale of the Earth, are very small on the scale of galaxies.

Among other things, the Big Bang did not form the heavier elements.

It just formed hydrogen (and its isotopes deuterium and tritium), helium (isotopes He3 and He4), and lithium (mostly Li7, but some Li6). The heavier elements were formed in the cores of stars and distributed during supernova. So, the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, calcium, iron, etc in our bodies did not even exist in the universe until a generation of stars when through their complete cycle.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you posit the formation of the earth separately, from the rest of the universe?

It was millions of years after the Big Bang before the first stars coalesced.

If all matter was compressed, then expanded, "growing by more than a trillion trillion-fold in less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a second", why was the matter in the earth excluded from this Causation Event?

Well, you seem to misunderstand the Big Bang model.

First of all, the very early universe was very uniform in density (there were fluctuations, but we will get to those later). It was also HOT. For the first few minuites, the whole universe was hot and dense enough for nuclear fusion reactions to occur (which today require the cores of stars). It wasn't for about 300000 years that things cooled enough for the whole universe not to be incandescent. And it wasn't for millions of years for the fist stars to form.

I do not see a way to differentiate the age of the earth from the rest of the universe. It blew up, in the big bang,
Nope. The Earth formed billions of years *after* the Big Bang. Among other things, the heavier elements in the Earth (like Silicon, Aluminum, Iron, etc) were not even in existence before the first generation of stars went through a complete cycle and formed those elements in theies and following supernova.

and was suddenly, almost instantly, expanded trillions fold to fill the universe, without the need for slow gradualism. Light and other rays expanded at this same 'rate', in this cosmic creation event. We cannot assume uniformity nor gradualism under these conditions.

The inflationary epoch that you are mentioning is even b period of nuclear synthesis. All that existed at that point was a flux of quarks and electrons. It was simply too hot for even protons and neutrons to form.

The very opposite is premised, so those conditions must apply to isotopes as well. You cannot cherry pick them out of your big bang event, and apply uniform gradualism to them, only.

Well, the heavier isotopes were not even formed from the reactions in stars at that point.

Now, one of the lines of evidence for the Big Bang is the abundance of the lighter elements in the universe, which follows precisely the predictions of the hot Big Bang. Hydrogen is, by far, the most common element in the universe, followed by helium. Elements like carbon, nitrogen, oxygen (of which our bodies are made) and silicon, aluminum, iron (of which the Earth is made) did not even exist after the period of nuclear syhtnesis finished.

Another very important line of evidence for the Big Bang is those small fluctuations. As with everything in the Big Bang, they happened everywhere and eventually grew into the galaxies we see today. They also left their mark on the background radiation, so the CMBR is a very good record of the condition of the universe when it had cooled enough to be transparent to light. Because those fluctuations are the result of even earlier processes, the CMBR gives some insight into even earlier stages of the universe.

But this was *long* before even the first stars, let alone the first galaxies. The Earth formed a long, long time after that.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
How do you posit the formation of the earth separately, from the rest of the universe?

So, you're criticising a theory and making all sorts of claims about assumptions that are made by it, when you don't even know what its conclusions are!

Does it never occur to you to at least do some basic reading around a subject before declaring it to be false and based on assumptions? You know - even if you've already made up your mind without ever having looking at it, at least do some reading up before making public assertions about it, in the spirit of "know your enemy", if nothing else.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You only speculated, or suggested it as a plausibility. That is not evidence that it happened.

Tectonic plates drift, turn, and move all around. How can you note the direction of magnetic fields in igneous rock, and declare, 'Earth's Flipping magnetic field!'?

That is not evidence, that is a plausibility dodge, with no evidence.

Plates don't move that fast and the magnetic field recording have stripes of different directions. One strip will be in one direction. The next strip in the opposite direction, the next in the first direction, etc.

There is no mechanism for field reversals, no observation of this phenomena in any other magnetic field,

Both are false, although our understanding of the process isn't as good as we'd like. The sun, for example, goes through magnetic field reversals every 11 years or so. This is directly related to the sunspot cycle. So, yes, we very much do have observations of this effects in other dynamo magnetic fields.

If you want an example in a lab setting, there is this: https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0701076.pdf

BTW, I was not previously aware of this experiment. Thanks for inducing me to look for something like this.

and the drastic changes that this would impel would be catastrophic for almost all life. The tides, orbits, the moon.. too many factors affected by a glib speculation of 'Flipping Magnetic Poles!'

Huh? Why would a flip of the magnetic field do any of these? They are not gravitational and so would have NO effect on orbits or the tides. Nor, except for a slight increase of cosmic radiation, would they have much effect on life.

A reminder of the facts:

The half life of the earth's magnetic field has been calculated, based on measurements over the last couple of centuries.
From wiki:
Barnes claimed to calculate the half-life of the earth's magnetic field as approximately 1,400 years based on 130 years of empirical data.

The rate of decrease was measured. At least that much is correct. But it is 'speculation' that it is part of a steady decrease in intensity. And we *know* that the magnetic actually undergoes reversals (and have known that for ages).

This is based on an assumption of uniformity, during the last few millennia, which seems logical. There is no indication of other factors that could change the gradualism assumption for the earth's magnetic half life.

Except, again, that we know spinning magnetic fields like those of the Earth do, in fact, undergo field reversals.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Ah, fun times!
usfan said:
:shrug:

I did not say, 'males don't have mtDNA! ' .. that is a strawman.
Your ignorance of the mtDNA 'marker' does not invalidate my points.

Study up a bit before you rush in and accuse me of error.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

The expert of 40 years wrote:

"The mtDNA, carries a flag in it from mother to daughter. It has ironically been called the 'Eve' gene. Males don't have it, but all women do. It is passed down from mother to daughter in ANY descended line. It is the same 'marker' in every human being.."​

YOUR OWN SOURCE CLEARLY INDICATED THAT THE "EVE GENE" IS A LAYMAN'S TERM FOR mtDNA:

So each of us inherits our mtDNA from our own mother, who inherited her mtDNA intact from her mother, and so on back through the generations – hence mtDNA’s popular name, ‘the Eve gene’.

This "marker" that you have been yammering on about yet not defining all along is actually just mtDNA!
So - do you not read your own sources, or are you just really this uninformed yet confident?
Creationists... :hugehug:
[/QUOTE]
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
'Ignorance and lies!!'

The 'scientific rebuttal of the common descent True Believer..

"Progressive indoctrinees!"

"True Believer!"

"Jihadists!"

'You are all just heckling me! And it hurts my manly feelings!'

'I never said what I actually said repeatedly while insulting everyone that showed I was wrong!'


The 'scientific rebuttal of the Trump-bible True Believer that claims to have debated evolution for 40 years yet never learned basic scientific terminology.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
The pseudo science projection here is off the charts.

Did you even read this 'study?'
Yes, and unlike you, I understood it.

This is NOT like the discovery of mtDNA,
Nor was your Canid study.
Of course, who said anything about the "discovery" of anything?
or its significance in tracing the mt-MRCA,
And yet, that is what was accomplished - so cool for unwittingly admitting that you could not understand the big science words despite your claim of 40 YEARS of debate.

What exactly did you do in those 4 decades of 'debate'? Just paraphrase YEC talking points like you do now?
but is a statistical comparison,

'Statistical comparison' like that used in your favorite Canid paper?
AFTER THE ASSUMPTION of common ancestry is made!
Just like in the Canid paper - surely, a genius like you does not actually think the researchers in your Canid paper did not assume all dogs are related via common ancestry?

Are you that much of a Trumpist?
You put your faith is vague comparisons of the 'genomic sequences', which is declared, 'proof of evolution!'
LOL!

4 decades wasted on rehearsing dopey heckles and YEC dodges.

You waste everyone's time with your predictably lame escapes and naive assertions.

Tell us more about the "Eve gene" - the "flag", the "marker" , you claimed only humans had, that men did not have...

Oh wait - YOUR OWN LINK indicted it was just a dunderhead's term for the MITOCHONDIAL DNA!!!

LOL!


4 decades of head-in-the-rearism....

Beta Beta Beta
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes, 3rd party gossiping about someone is much more 'scientific!' than debating with facts and reason..


..progressive indoctrinees..



"Let's look at some facts:
The mtDNA, carries a flag in it
from mother to daughter. It has ironically been called the 'Eve' gene. Males don't have it, but all women do."


:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

- regressive beta indoctrinee claiming 40 YEARS of evolution "debate" pretending to be "science minded".......
Let me guess - this one will try to claim this is "out of context", or some pathetic and desperate escape...
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, fun times!
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

The expert of 40 years wrote:

"The mtDNA, carries a flag in it from mother to daughter. It has ironically been called the 'Eve' gene. Males don't have it, but all women do. It is passed down from mother to daughter in ANY descended line. It is the same 'marker' in every human being.."​

YOUR OWN SOURCE CLEARLY INDICATED THAT THE "EVE GENE" IS A LAYMAN'S TERM FOR mtDNA:

So each of us inherits our mtDNA from our own mother, who inherited her mtDNA intact from her mother, and so on back through the generations – hence mtDNA’s popular name, ‘the Eve gene’.

This "marker" that you have been yammering on about yet not defining all along is actually just mtDNA!
So - do you not read your own sources, or are you just really this uninformed yet confident?
Creationists... :hugehug:
[/QUOTE]
Noting the first quote, has anyone been able to answer the question of how the 'Eve' gene marker is only found in women and also in every human being at the same time?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Noting the first quote, has anyone been able to answer the question of how the 'Eve' gene marker is only found in women and also in every human being at the same time?
It is a puzzle for the ages....
I'm still curious as to how the creationist believes that this "marker" within the mtGenome carries more phylogenetic weight than using the ENTIRE mtGenome, which surely would have many more such 'markers'.

Is it even possible that we could be looking at the most successful, elaborate Poe ever?
 
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