Satan's Fall and Satan Falls Again

[Watchmen]

My understanding is that Lucifer and the 1/3 who followed him were cast out of Father's presence for open rebellion. As we know, Lucifer wanted to do things in a way that would "save" everyone and he would take all the glory for himself (in other words, he would be the only one "like God" in the end).

This is the casting away and "fall" of Lucifer.

But...did Lucifer fall a second time because he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Was his punishment somehow increased or made worse? Did he have some remnant of the priesthood until he tempted Adam and Eve? In other words, was there a second Fall and casting out? If so, what was the difference between the first and second? Is it symbolic of Satan failing both the first and second estate (even though he technically never had a second estate).

Any thoughts?

 

[idea]

My understanding is that Lucifer and the 1/3 who followed him were cast out of Father's presence for open rebellion.

(New Testament | Revelation12:4)
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

"the thrid" could be 1/3, or it could be three different groups of spirits - not really 33%... just a side note.

As we know, Lucifer wanted to do things in a way that would "save" everyone and he would take all the glory for himself (in other words, he would be the only one "like God" in the end).

not just glory - but take away agency. The only way to save everyone is to force everyone to be good - turn everyone into robots...

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses4:3)
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man

This is the casting away and "fall" of Lucifer.

But...did Lucifer fall a second time because he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? Was his punishment somehow increased or made worse? Did he have some remnant of the priesthood until he tempted Adam and Eve? In other words, was there a second Fall and casting out? If so, what was the difference between the first and second? Is it symbolic of Satan failing both the first and second estate (even though he technically never had a second estate).

Any thoughts?

interesting. some things from the temple there

here are the curses which are divied out...

(Old Testament | Genesis3:14 - 19)
14 And the LORD God said unto the aserpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art bcursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put aenmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; bit shall cbruise thy head, and thou shalt dbruise his heel.
16 Unto the awoman he said, I will greatly bmultiply thy csorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth dchildren; and thy desire shall be to thy ehusband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy awife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: bcursed is the ground for thy sake; in csorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 aThorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the asweat of thy face shalt thou eat bbread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for cdust thou art, and unto ddust shalt thou return.


Satan was cursed, so yes, he decended even lower as a result of Eden. Lost his wings, and then he lost his feet.

how low can you go?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNZocat6NJE&feature=player_embedded

apparently, pretty low.

 

[zomg]

Good observation, Watchmen. What we have been taught in the temple does seem to indicate a second fall/punishment. After the fruit has been eaten God acts extra, extra mad :help:

 

[Watchmen]

I guess what I'm wondering is what is the significance of the second fall. After all, he'd already been cast out, right? If you're already kicked out of the house, what more can be done?

 

[Sola'lor]

"the thrid" could be 1/3, or it could be three different groups of spirits - not really 33%... just a side note.

Or the 1/3 could just be symbolic of a portion. whether it was 1/3, 3/8,1/2 17/16 or what not.

(ok, the 17/16 was a little joke.)

 

[Arkholt]

God obviously had an end in mind for everything that was supposed to happen in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were supposed to eat the fruit, so that they would learn what agency was all about, and what good and evil were. That was the point of it. It was set up from the beginning. We all know this.

So, who's to say that Lucifer's fate wasn't set up from the beginning, too? God obviously knew what was going to happen at the end. He probably planned the final curse right after he cast Lucifer and however many of his followers out of heaven. He just waited until everything in the Garden was over to do it.

 

[Tony L Smith]

Anyone ever wondered that maybe the act of Satan being cast out of heaven is accuring right now as we live.

Like any act of pride, it was fueled by an accusation against God, as noted when he talked with the woman in the garden 'did God say?' and so on. He accused God of holding something good back from Adam, therfore saying God is not fair.

Maybe this whole act in the garden was his original rebellion?
Maybe Jesus died and arose to get satan out of the space between us and God?

 

[madhatter85]

I view our Heavely Fatheras the master chess player. He knows all possible outcomes and possible "moves" so he is never "surprised" by our coices and actions. However, there is one caviat to this analogy, his plan cannot be frustrated by Satan.

Heavenly Father knew he would rebel but this was definitely not deterministic as we know that we have our free agency and had our free agency in the pre-existence.

yes, he was cast out of heaven for rebellion, and then he was punished for trying to frustrate Heavenly Father's plan again. But in reality Satan unwittingly helped the plan along (silly lucifer).

I take what happened in the Garden of Eden as an example of acting in God's name when not authorized to do so. Satan tried to "push things along" because he was butthurt but like someone with limited foresight and limited knowledge he didn't really "change" much of anything.