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Romans One and the Force of Law.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Paul claims in Romans chapter one that because of natural law men should know, naturally, to reject things contrary to natural law ("natural law" being related to the things we observe throughout nature). He seems to insinuate that moral law, and thus religious morality, are a natural outgrowth of natural law, such that natural law makes morality and religious thought natural, normal, healthy, while rejection of natural law, is something like a gateway drug into rejection of morality and religious thought.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Paul claims in Romans chapter one that because of natural law men should know, naturally, to reject things contrary to natural law ("natural law" being related to the things we observe throughout nature). He seems to insinuate that moral law, and thus religious morality, are a natural outgrowth of natural law, such that natural law makes morality and religious thought natural, normal, healthy, while rejection of natural law, is something like a gateway drug into rejection of morality and religious thought.

This particular claim of Paul's butts up against one of the most profound revelations of modern thought. After one of the most careful examinations ever undertaken concerning the root, cause, and source, of modern science, Sir Karl Popper implies (and this is contrary to Paul's apparent canonization of natural law), that modern science began not from respect for natural law, but out of the utterly unique human ability to see not divine good in natural law, but instead, error, fundamental errors, that appear naturally designed to distort truth and keep mankind closer to the level of the beasts of the field than creatures endowed with a divine spirit.

According to Popper, every genuinely creative, and important, scientific thought/discovery, far from bowing at the idol of natural law, is instead, and in fact, a violence against natural law. Rather than growing out of natural law, science grows out of a profound, lawful, correct, rejection and rescinding of natural law; in fact an antinomian attitude toward natural law. The almost supernatural design of a Pentium chip, a Mars rover, an I-phone 8, reflects the fact that scientific-discovery is able to wrench out of the natural laws seemingly unnaturally brilliant manifestations of the usefulness of science's disrespect for the natural world order as that order is writ large in the first, old, testament to nature's laws, cosmos, and god.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
This particular claim of Paul's butts up against one of the most profound revelations of modern thought. After one of the most careful examinations ever undertaken concerning the root, cause, and source, of modern science, Sir Karl Popper implies that whereas Paul canonizes natural law as a divine good, something like the source for moral and religious lawfulness, modern science grew not out of respect for natural law, but out of the utterly unique human ability to see not divine good in natural law, but instead, error, fundamental errors, that appear naturally designed to distort truth and keep mankind closer to the level of the beasts of the field than creatures endowed with a divine spirit.

According to Popper, every genuinely creative, and important, scientific thought/discovery, far from bowing at the idol of natural law, is instead and in fact a violence against natural law. Rather than growing out of natural law, science grows out of a profound, lawful, correct, rejection and rescinding of natural law; an antinomian attitude toward natural law. The almost supernatural nature of a Pentium chip, a Mars rover, an I-phone 8, reflects the fact that scientific-discovery is able to wrench out of the natural laws seemingly supernatural manifestations of science's disrespect for the natural world order writ large in the first, old, testament to nature's laws, cosmos, and god.

The philosopher D.G. Leahy implies that the understanding Paul writes about in the New Testament book of Romans, when it's taken as a whole, far from deifying, glorifying, and evangelizing, concerning the power of natural law (as it's noted in Romans chapter one), instead creates the very change in human thinking (Paul's thoughts concerning Christ does) that lead to the very possibility of modern science's ability to see the imperfect nature of natural law, nature's law, and from that vantage-point, or Archimedean perch, deeper into the true reality of the world, God's true, new, testament to man, not manifest in natural law or the original testament to the old world order.

So my brothers, know that you've died to the natural law (writ large in chapter one) through the body of Christ that you might belong to another epoch created by the one raised from the dead in gross opposition to nature's natural law. . . For when we were slaves to nature's original law, the sinful passions aroused by that law . . . bore the ripened fruit of nature, death. But now, by dying to what once enslaved us, the natural law of chapter one, we have been released from the natural law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the old testament to nature and nature's god.

Romans 7:4-6.​



John
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The philosopher D.G. Leahy implies that the understanding Paul writes about in the New Testament book of Romans, far from deifying, glorifying, and evangelizing, concerning the natural law noted in Romans chapter one, instead creates the very change in human thinking (Paul's thoughts concerning Christ does) that leads to the very possibility of the modern scientist's undeniable ability to see the imperfect nature of natural law, nature's law, and from that vantage-point, or Archimedean perch, peer deeper into the true reality of the world, God's true, new, testament to man, than is manifest in natural law, or the original testament to the old world order and its natural laws.

So my brothers, know that you've died to the natural law (writ large in chapter one) through the body of Christ that you might belong to another epoch created by the one raised from the dead in gross opposition to nature's natural law. . . For when we were slaves to nature's original law, the sinful passions aroused by that law . . . bore the ripened fruit of nature, death. But now, by dying to what once enslaved us, the natural law of chapter one, we have been released from the natural law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the old testament to nature and nature's god.

Romans 7:4-6.​



John
Now kindly tell us, what did (Jesus) Yeshua-the Israelite Messiah say in the issue, please? Right?

Regards
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Now kindly tell us, what did (Jesus) Yeshua-the Israelite Messiah say in the issue, please? Right?

Regards

In regard to the quotation you're responding to, he said that he had power over life and death so that the Father would not suffer him to remain in the grave and furthermore that he wouldn't suffer those who believe in him to remain in the grave.

That being so, Paul makes the case that "death" is the very fruit of natural law. Everyone born of nature alone, apart from being born again through Christ, reaches the ripeness of their existence precisely at death. Death is the full blossom of the fruit of natural life.

Not so much those born again from a process that's not part of the natural law that Paul discusses in Romans chapter one.



John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
In regard to the quotation you're responding to, he said that he had power over life and death so that the Father would not suffer him to remain in the grave and furthermore that he wouldn't suffer those who believe in him to remain in the grave.

That being so, Paul makes the case that "death" is the very fruit of natural law. Everyone born of nature alone, apart from being born again through Christ, reaches the ripeness of their existence precisely at death. Death is the full blossom of the fruit of natural life.

Not so much those born again from a process that's not part of the natural law that Paul discusses in Romans chapter one.



John
Will one kindly quote Yeshua's words, please? Right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:26.


John

One couldn't quote from Yeshua, in the issue one wanted to discuss in the thread, did one, please? Right?
Try another time for finding a/some direct quote/s from Yeshua and also reason/s given by Yeshua in the issue, please. Right?

Regards
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So my brothers, know that you've died to the natural law (writ large in chapter one) through the body of Christ that you might belong to another epoch created by the one raised from the dead in gross opposition to nature's natural law. . . For when we were slaves to nature's original law, the sinful passions aroused by that law . . . bore the ripened fruit of nature, death. But now, by dying to what once enslaved us, the natural law of chapter one, we have been released from the natural law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the old testament to nature and nature's god.

Romans 7:4-6.​

The quotation above sets up an important dichotomy between Paul's apparent canonization of moral law in Romans chapter one, versus the fact that in Romans chapter seven, as quoted above, Paul speaks of a new birth and new epoch freed from the very laws of nature he seemingly canonized in Romans chapter one?

In the context of the foregoing, Paul is beating Popper to the punch. Paul is stating that the natural man, the carnal, or brute man, is quite capable of understanding the precise and homeostatic equilibrium in nature, as well as the fact that where that equilibrium and precise lawful balance is upset, it leads to deformities and death. But Paul speaks of a deeper realization that comes not through codification, observation, and precise moral acquiescence to natural law, ala the Judaism of Christ's day, but rather a new revelation, come from a new kind of man (in Christ), who realizes that if death is a result of tampering or trampling over natural law (as proposed throughout the Tanakh), then applying death in every case of every living man and woman implies that there's no hope in natural law for evading the natural result of lack of observation and practice of natural law: death.

Is the doctrine of original sin merely one doctrine among many? Is it not rather, according to its fundamental meaning (see however v. 12) THE DOCTRINE which emerges from all honest study of history?

Karl Barth, The Epistle to the Romans, p.85.​

The law of death, applied in every case, of every human life, implies, to the very mind able to intuit the nature of law, and its nearly perfect homostasis in nature, that, ala Popper, there's a serious and fundamental fly in the ointment: something is not right in Eden, or the post-Edenic world, where nature dangles the threat of death as the encouragement to follow along with natural law when that threat of death is already guaranteed regardless of the extent to which natural law is observed, understood, and followed. It's the case that every sentient human being is going to experience the wrath of god irregardless of whether they practices something as outside of homeostatic equilibrium as homosexual bonding (the poster-child for unnaturalness, or lawlessness, in Romans chapter one) or not.

Where Paul is presaging Popper is where he notes that death is the ultimate "wrath" of the natural god of Nature divvied out wherever the natural laws are not followed, but that natural laws appear to possess a fundamental flaw in that the death meted out for ignorance of the laws, breaking the laws, is divvied out equally to the sons of man, eventually, irregardless of how carefully they observe, document, and obey, those laws.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Where Paul is presaging Popper is where he notes that death is the ultimate "wrath" of the natural god of Nature divvied out wherever the natural laws are not followed, but that natural laws appear to possess a fundamental flaw in that the death meted out for ignorance of the laws, breaking the laws, is divvied out equally to the sons of man, eventually, irregardless of how carefully they observe, document, and obey, those laws.

In the context of Jewish-Christian disputation, the denial of resurrection can therefore be a potent weapon in the armamentarium of the Jewish disputant. It provides them with an element of religious justification for their own continued existence in the face of the extraordinarily powerful pressure to assimilate to the Christian host culture: the Christians, vulnerable to a crude superstition about a god-man who came back from the dead, have perverted the Hebrew Bible by introducing something altogether foreign into it. In contrast, the Jews, by adhering to their Bible's belief in the naturalness of death, are the true and exclusive heirs to the Scriptures and, what is more, exemplars of a position altogether in line with modern scientific thinking. By excluding the resurrection of the dead from Judaism, modern Jews can appear to the world and more important, to themselves as simultaneously adhering to a way of thinking that is as old and particular as the Hebrew Bible and as new and universal as modern science.

Jon D. Levinson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies, Harvard University, Resurrection and the Restoration of Israel.

In contrast to Professor Levinson's Judaism of the modern Jew, everything Paul says in his epistle to the Roman's is centered around, and based on, the belief that a Jewish man died (as all men died before him), and was resurrected as no man before or since has been raised from the dead. Paul is claiming that the fact of the resurrection of a man from the dead focuses the attention of all men on the brokenness of a natural law, and a natural god, who overplays his most powerful threat for lawbreakers by trying to apply it to all men equally when its original purpose is to set apart the sheep who follow natural law from the goats who don't.

Paul's victorious proclamation is that this natural law, and natural god, went one man too far and has therein spilled the beans and upset the apple-cart calling to the attention of all men the brokenness of a law and or god who overplays his most powerful weapon: death. Paul is saying that even the myth of Jesus' resurrection from the dead (even if that were all it is) makes thoughtful men think about the dichotomy above: why is a law designed to enforce natural law applied to all mankind as though all mankind is by its nature a lawbreaker at birth? If natural law is a good, and the lawful man is good, and the lawbreaker is bad, why do the good and the bad die one and all?

Death is either a natural part of nature's laws, and thus has no moral calling or purpose in contrast to Romans chapter one (in which case the Tanakh and Judaism become problematic for their threats against lawbreakers the ultimate being death), or death is a tool used to enforce natural law against lawbreakers such that its universal application stands out like a sore thumb or up like another thumb-like appendage.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
In the context of Jewish-Christian disputation, the denial of resurrection can therefore be a potent weapon in the armamentarium of the Jewish disputant. It provides them with an element of religious justification for their own continued existence in the face of the extraordinarily powerful pressure to assimilate to the Christian host culture: the Christians, vulnerable to a crude superstition about a god-man who came back from the dead, have perverted the Hebrew Bible by introducing something altogether foreign into it. In contrast, the Jews, by adhering to their Bible's belief in the naturalness of death, are the true and exclusive heirs to the Scriptures and, what is more, exemplars of a position altogether in line with modern scientific thinking. By excluding the resurrection of the dead from Judaism, modern Jews can appear to the world and more important, to themselves as simultaneously adhering to a way of thinking that is as old and particular as the Hebrew Bible and as new and universal as modern science.

Jon D. Levinson, Albert A. List Professor of Jewish Studies, Harvard University, Resurrection and the Restoration of Israel.

In contrast to Professor Levinson's Judaism of the modern Jew, everything Paul says in his epistle to the Roman's is centered around, and based on, the belief that a Jewish man died (as all men died before him), and was resurrected as no man before or since has been raised from the dead. Paul is claiming that the fact of the resurrection of a man from the dead focuses the attention of all men on the brokenness of a natural law, and a natural god, who overplays his most powerful threat for lawbreakers by trying to apply it to all men equally when its original purpose is to set apart the sheep who follow natural law from the goats who don't.

Paul's victorious proclamation is that this natural law, and natural god, went one man too far and has therein spilled the beans and upset the apple-cart calling to the attention of all men the brokenness of a law and or god who overplays his most powerful weapon: death. Paul is saying that even the myth of Jesus' resurrection from the dead (even if that were all it is) makes thoughtful men think about the dichotomy above: why is a law designed to enforce natural law applied to all mankind as though all mankind is by its nature a lawbreaker at birth? If natural law is a good, and the lawful man is good, and the lawbreaker is bad, why do the good and the bad die one and all?

Death is either a natural part of nature's laws, and thus has no moral calling or purpose in contrast to Romans chapter one (in which case the Tanakh and Judaism become problematic for their threats against lawbreakers the ultimate being death), or death is a tool used to enforce natural law against lawbreakers such that its universal application stands out like a sore thumb or up like another thumb-like appendage.

The disciples are asked to work towards their salvation not in the presences (parousia) but in the absence (apousia) of the master: without either seeing or knowing, without hearing the law or the reason for the law. Without knowing from whence the thing comes and what awaits us, we are given over to absolute solitude.

Jacques Derrida, The Gift of Death.​

In context, the quotation above comes within Derrida's pointing out Paul telling the disciples to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). They know the Master is the one man too far concerning natural law's application of the death sentence, so that blessed among all men, the disciples have had the veil pulled back on natural law and the natural god now that he's overstepped the viable constants of nature's law of death for the lawbreaker by breaking the most perfect manifestation of one who didn't break the law.

Though the disciples may be full of fear and trembling at the revelation of something so disturbing and unhinging for Jew, Judaism, and the Tanakh (and its traditions), Paul, alone, is trembling with joy and excitement knowing, unlike the other disciples, that this overstepping of the law, for the first time ever in the history of the the universe, is the revelation of something hidden since the foundation of the world (Ephesian 1:4) and revealed only now, with the death sentence of Jesus of Nazareth (John 19:30): this universe is finished, it's purpose fulfilled. It was and still is merely a facade, the "old" testament. The old law is a fore skene covering up the fact that we are all just prisoners here, but not of our own device.

Without the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, it would be the case that natural law and the nature god (the latter being the judge, jury, and executioner of all mankind), would rule forever and ever no man the wiser. Only the death of a truly innocent man, and his subsequent resurrection, opens the eyes of all mankind to the phantoms and ghosts barely glimpsed in the shadows and dust of the old testament when the light is shown through it at the right time and at the right angle.

In Paul's eyes the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth, far from rescinding the law, utterly fulfills it in a way it did not itself perceive or foresee. For Paul, those who understand the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth are blessed beyond all men since it will be they alone who will, in due time, start applying the knowledge that natural law was being misapplied by a questionable judge and jury of that law, and provably so, since a mere mortal, Paul, was made able, through the death of Christ, to see deeper into the reality of the world, and the meaning and purpose of the law, than the god made judge, jury, and executioner of that law.

Through Jesus' death and resurrection, Saul of Tarus, become Paul, became more powerful than the god of the old testament, the writer of the natural law, who was its judge and executioner. The death of Paul, at the behest of the god of the old testament, the natural law, far from extinguishing Paul's Gospel, merely sped its dissemination, in written form, to the very ends of the earth where it took root in the soil of the goyim and began to lead to the Popperian scientific revolution based not on trust in the empirical presentation of the laws of nature, but based, as Popper claims, on precisely the opposite: utter lack of faith in the natural laws, and the natural perceptions, the observational experience, they foist on the unsuspecting:

What prevented Anaximander from arriving at the theory that the earth was a globe rather than a drum? There can be little doubt: it was observational experience which taught him that the surface of the earth was, by and large, flat. Thus it was a speculative and critical argument, the abstract critical discussion of Thales theory, which almost led him to the true theory of the shape of the earth: it was observational experience which led him astray.

Conjectures and Refutations
, p. 139.​




John
 
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