Roman Catholic Gospel and the Protestant Gospel

[TruthInCatholocism]

Council of Ephesus

Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: "There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod"

Pope Leo I

As for the resolution of the bishops, which is contrary to the Nicene decree, in union with your faithful piety, I declare it to be invalid and annul it by the authority of the holy apostle Peter

Whereupon the blessed Peter, as inspired by God, and about to benefit all nations by his confession, said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16). Not undeservedly, therefore, was he pronounced blessed by the Lord, and derived from the original Rock that solidity that belonged both to his virtue and to his name Peter

Peter Chrysologus

We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]).

No way shape or form did the early church question Peters Primacy (Pope)
Further More, One cannot argue these People speaking as early Church Leaders
And to continue, To Qoute Pope Hilirus (Regardless of how Wrong Your interpretations are/Or the Interpritations of Martyr Mirror-A Non-Catholic Site-which is not a good source for catholic teachinsg, just incase your looking for one) doesnt Prove anything O_O

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

the teaching of baptism in the early church...is consistant to the church today

Irenaeus

"He came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God--infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . so that he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age"

Hippolytus

"Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them"

Origen

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin . . . In the Church baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous"

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew there is in everyone innate strains of original sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit"


Cyprian

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You Fidus said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth.

In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born"

and so many more, obviously the original church leaders believed in the Baptism of infants, and obviously the original church leaders understood the importance of Baptism as Jesus himself commanded.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

and why is it noone is willing to comment on every fact that is so compelling,Biblical, and historical, but discuss something that has vauge meaning...... Like QOutes and Scriptures, With a vauge interpretation....

IE.

"Call no man father" Is Qouted as to why Catholics are Wrong because they call there Priests father, Yet Jesus himself and the Apostles call people Father throught the New testiment, so obviously Jesus was refering to the 1st. Commandment "I am the lord your god you shall have no gods before me"

Though Slightly off topic, How can you actually look at Scripture alone, when no where is scripture alone mentioned in the bible, How Come you cannot realize 'Sola Scriptura" Is unbiblical, unworkable, Unhistorical, and Self refuting?

The first church was a Visible Church...... and "Sola Scriptura" wasnt possible, The new testiment hasnt even been Written yet, so obviously it wasnt a taching of Jesus, He Never said Bible alone did he?

Didnt He "Establish" a church, and say go...Baptize nations...does sound like hes saying to me, Go....Tell all to become christian Spead the good news, then there ok...
Since the begging of the Bible there have been Visible Churches of God.....Where there Hebrews then the 20,000 denominations of Hebrews? No There was one Visible church, and that is what Jesus Intended.....

I am not saying Scripture isnt important...Of course it is...Very Important...But not alone..... It is Faith and Works....Scripture and the church.... Its that simple...That is Historical....and that is Biblical

and how come no Non-Catholic has yet to answer these very important Questions (to hard to think about?)

1. If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved? If so, then we are not saved by faith alone, are we? We are saved by faith and love—which Catholics refer to as faith working through love

2. If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you? Is it something Jesus did, or is it something each saved individual does? If it’s something Christ did, then why aren’t all men saved?

3. Christ redeemed all men with his death on the cross. In other words, he paid the price for all men’s sins. Yet not all men are saved. What is the difference between those who are merely redeemed and those who are redeemed and saved?

4. : Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God?

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

1. Final Authority - Sola Scriptura vs. Roman Catholic Magestrium
2. Justification by faith alone vs. justification together with sanctification through the means of the Roman Catholic sacraments (more than two).

Sola Scriptura (Revisited)

Why is it then when i Question "Sola Scriptura" Its mainly Dodged? (but anyway)

Sola Scriptura is UnScriptural, Unworkable, Unhistorical....Here is why....

"If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another. .. you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God will choose, and, coming to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is in office in those days, you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision. Then you shall do according to what they declare to you. . . and you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you; according to the instructions which they give you. . . you shall not turn aside from the verdict which they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left. The man who acts presumptuously, by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God or the judge, that man shall die" (Deut. 17:8-12).

"On this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:18-19)

"If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 18:15-18).

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

"If I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I shall not be put to shame" (1 Cor. 10:8).

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).

"When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers" (1 Thess. 2:13).

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:14-15).


Further more..Consider this..

Luther (16th century reformation) did not consider the Holy Spirits Permenant Union With the church....He obscured it by the sins of the members of the Church (which all Church's have O_O) The Church still has the means to state the truth and correct the situation, inside the church because it is the Church of Christ, Who is never separated from His Body. For a MAN (Not Devine or with authority) To try and break what Christ himself Established is just wrong, and not to undertand that shows..well...a lack of understanding...

God's message as written in the Bible never existed apart from the authorized People of God, which is a definite visible communion. It is important to understand each book of the Bible..I believe that...but your missing and not understanding the Unity of the Bible...If you understood the unity you would be able to understand that bible..and what it is teaching us...

Luther Assumed (and you know what assuming does) that the problems inside the church meant the church was infallible, Yet all it shows is all humans are sinners and none of us devine...which we all know anyway...but Luther takes it upon himself to "reform" The church....

Luther assumed he was infallibly O_O right that the Scriptures (which he had already been taught by the Church were divinely inspired) meant what he meant, not what the church has been teaching for centuries, not what the Aposltes taught but by his own teachings, his own interpreations, skewing what was written and what is taught...

Despite what Jesus Teaches us..a MAN..decides that works do not matter...that it is by faith alone..yet as i mentioned numerous times..Faith Alone is only mentioned once in the bible...Once...(Legitamatlly any-way) (in Luthers translation and therafter in Non-Catholic Bibles...Even though the original Greek text never syas faith alone but this once)

Kinda Funny how the one time faith alone is mentioned in the Bible its rejected huh?

Here you Go

James 2:24 (English Version)
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone

(Niv)
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

(NAS)

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


(Amplified Bible)

You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes

Here is something you need to consider

Romans 3:28 (as i mentioned..Never says Faith Alone)

When Martin Luther translated the letter to the Romans into German in the sixteenth century, he added the word alone —but alone is not in the original Greek text (septuigent)

So Faith Alone...Sola Sciptura...Just doesnt Cut it..Sorry

 

[Runlikethewind]

Nice posts TruthinCatholocism, all good points. I must unfortunately bow out of this discussion for the next two weeks since I will be leaving on vacation and will have little or no internet access. I look forward to continuing our discussions when I return, until then God bless.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

It will be here when you get back..see you soon Frublas to RTTW for good luck

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Drop out of this one BT?

 

[bible truth]

Drop out of this one BT?

Justification by faith alone is the article which the church stands or fall. Martin Luther (parphrased).

This is the absolute truth about being justified by God according to the Bible. I have been waiting for RLTW to come back from his two week vacation. RLTW, are you back yet? - BT

 

[bible truth]

Hey RLTW, and TIC,

The claim of baptismal regeneration appears to be a common theme in several of the on-going Threads. The Roman Catholic Church and “the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teach baptismal regeneration, the need of water baptism is necessary for salvation.

I answered this same claim of baptismal regeneration on the Thread "Is Salvation through Faith Alone" posts 41, 42, 43. I don't think everybody wants me to double post the same biblical response on multiple Threads. Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, by the person and work of Christ alone. Water baptism is an outward sign of the inward reality of being united to Christ through faith alone. If you make water baptism the cause of salvation, you have added works of something man must do to be saved.

Romans chapter 6 is the inward reality of being baptized by the Spirit, uniting a sinner to Christ through faith alone. Please read Romans 6 in context with the entire book of Romans. We can talk about all of the other Scriptures you posted (Comprehend -LDS member) and take each one and interpret them in proper biblical context if you want to. - BT

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Simple Question .....Where in Romans 6 does it read "Faith Alone"?


Actually, Lets ask ourselves this (Again) O_O

What does the Bible say about faith alone, The ONE and ONLY time its mentioned.

James 2:24

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith Alone.

This is the Exact context you use, no metehors, no deep reading, straight foward,
"Not By Faith Alone"

Use the term as the bible says it, not as Man (Luther) Says it.


Question and comment discussed in Catholic Answers forum:

If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved? If so, then we are not saved by faith alone, are we? We are saved by faith and love—which Catholics refer to as faith working through love (cf. Gal. 5:6). If a person says we do not need love in order to be saved, then he is saying we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man—a patently ridiculous position to take. Also, if faith alone saves us, faith without love, why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and it is by faith alone that we achieve salvation, then faith should be greater than love. But the Bible says differently.

 

[fascist_crusader]

The works are merely by products of one who has faith. The purpose of James 2 is to say that those who truly have faith will produce fruits of the spirit, which can be shown through works, not that your works save you.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Really? O_O

If you come face to face with Jesus, and say how will we be judged at the end of time, what would Jesus say? Would you believe what he says? im sure you would, well lets ask him....


Jesus how will we be judged at the end of time? What will get us into heaven, what will send me to eternal Damnation?

Jesus answered:

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Try and argue that.....

You read the Bible The Bible says "Not by faith alone" and shows us an example of faith and works as how we will be "Judged" yet you still argue.....and how wrong you are.... what i said is scriptural..what you say is a teaching of man, and deff. unscriptual...and to be honest to take a chapter out of a catholic friend on this forum...

You can continue to argue, i know im right, i have faith in my faith...and i understand, its kinda pointless to argue, because despite what is scriptural and historical, you still argue with things that are unhistorical and unscriptual..which just makes for a very redundant argument.....

 

[fascist_crusader]

Once again christ is saying that those who claim to have faith(cry lord lord) but don't produce fruits of the spirit are unsaved. The bible states on numerous occasions that faith saves you, it say here in Ephesians 2 verse 8 and 9 that works don't save

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The bible outright says there that only faith saves you, which means you have been interpreting things wrong since the scriptures don't contradict, and blatantly say its works do nothing.

Now what's this about you taking the scriptural position?

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Ok, so the Bible says Faith saves, and the Bible says Works save .....Therfor the Logical Conclusion would be....Faith AND works save...Which still make me right and you Wrong.........

Where in the Bible does it ever say..Faith alone saves?

You did read earlier posts right?

The original Septuigent Never says Faith alone....except for once.....when it says...Not by faith alone.... Luther during the translation added it...thats historical.....Look it up..

Now whats this about you being wrong?

Your Qoute says , By Faith...Min says not by faith...

Your Qoutes says Not by works mine says by works....

Either we are all Wrong or we are all right...and if we are all right...then i am right... and if i am right..You are wrong....so no matter what...Im right.... :foot:

 

[fascist_crusader]

How are you right? The bible says specifically

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

That proves you wrong outright. It never directly says works save you, it says those who truly have fauith will produce fruit of the spirit, and you've incorrectly interpreted that to mean works save you.

The bible also says "all our righteouss deeds are as filthy rags before the LORD." How can the LORD desire filthy rags, much less require them for salation?

For the last time the bible does ot contradict itself, if it does you're interpreting something wrong. Since my quote is blatantly obvious in its meaning, you must be incorrectly interpreting.

Also saying things like "I'm right, you're wrong" makes you seem less intelligent, and its quote, not qoute.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Your not understanding my point.... Im trying my hardest not to use apologetics (i trust a freind here )

"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone”

That proves you wrong outright. It never directly says faith saves you.

It directly says, "Not by faith alone"

and as i mentioned before, When Jesus was asked how will be saved..he answered with works, therfore faith and works........

and actually, the im right your wrong, must be to complex for you to understand....its actually Philosophy.... O_O (in this case)

So ill explain it for you

You say your are saved by faith alone
i say your saved By the grace of god, by Faith and Works

Now the Bible says "You see man is justified by works, and not by Faith alone"
(which means faith and works, look at the context of the sentence....He doesnt say he isnt justified by faith...he says man is justified not by faith alone..works are important)

Now Your qoute shows

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."


So if You can be saved by works, and you can be saved by faith it makes us both right, doesnt it, (According to the bible)

And if you can be saved by faith and works, that makes you right (because you can be saved by faith), and me right (because works are important according to the bible), and if we are both right, Then i am right (Obviously, because if we are both right, i am included in [Both]) and if i am right, then you are wrong (because its not by faith alone)

See simple Philosophy, Im sorry you couldnt keep up, ill make it much easier for you next time

 

[fascist_crusader]

Sigh, why do you have sucj a hard time with this? If we are both right then the bible contradicts itself, and since the scriptures don't do that one of us is completely wrong. For the last time, look at your little mantra in context, read this article, it will explain it to you.

Does the Bible Contradict Itself? ​

It is a fundamental Christian belief that we are justified by faith. Justification means that God declares a sinner to be righteous. He does this by crediting, by reckoning the righteousness of Jesus to the sinner. This is done by faith. That is, when the sinner puts his faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and trusts in Him and not himself for righteousness, then God justifies him. "And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," (Rom. 4:3). But, if the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith, does it also teach we are justified by works as James seems to say? Do we have a contradiction? The answer is no.​

Context is Everything​

It is erroneous to take a verse, read it without its context, and then attempt to develop a doctrine from that verse alone. Therefore, let's take a look at the context of James 2:24 which says that a man is justified by works. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8- 13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.​

For simplicity, I've summarized each verse and arranged the section in an outline style.

14 - What use is it if someone says he has faith but no works?
15 - If you see someone in need
16 - and you don't give him what he needs, but say, ‘Go in peace, be
warmed.' What use is that?
17 - therefore faith with no works is dead
18 - therefore, someone says "I will show you my faith by my
works."
19 - you believe in God? Good. The demons do too.
20 - faith without works is useless.
21 - Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac
22 - faith was working with his works.
23 - Scripture says, "And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as
righteousness"
24 - you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
25 - Rahab, was justified by works
26 - faith without works is dead
Notice that James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith, verses 14. He then immediately gives an example of what true and false faiths are. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith by showing Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).
This is why in the middle of his section on faith and works, he says in verse 19, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James says this because the demons believe in God, that is, they have faith, but the faith they have is useless. It does not result in appropriate works. Their faith is only a mental acknowledgment of God's existence.

Ascentia and Fiducia​

Two words are worth introducing here: ascentia and fiducia. Ascentia is the mental ascent, the mental acknowledgment of something's existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ. A Christian, therefore, has fiducia; that is, he has real faith and trust in Christ, not simply an acknowledgment that He lived on earth at one time. Another way to put this is that there are many people in the world who believed that Jesus lived: ascentia. But they do not believe that He is their savior, the one to be looked to and trusted for the forgiveness of their sins.
Ascentia does not lead to works. Fiducia does. Ascentia is not of the heart. Fiducia is.​

What is James Saying?​

James is simply saying that if you ‘say' you are a Christian, then there had better be some appropriate works manifested or your faith is false. This sentiment is echoed in 1 John 2:4 which says, "If you say you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar."
Apparently, there were people who were saying they were Christians, but were not manifesting any of the fruit of Christianity. Can this faith justify? Can the dead ‘faith' that someone has which produces no change in a person and no good works before men and God be a faith that justifies? Absolutely not. It is not merely enough to say you believe in Jesus. You must actually believe and trust in Him. If you actually do, then you will demonstrate that faith by a changed and godly life. If not, then your profession is of no more value than the same profession of demons: "We believe Jesus lived."
Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Therefore, we are justified by faith. That is, we are made righteous in the eyes of God by faith as is amply demonstrated by Romans. However, that faith, if it is true, will result in deeds appropriate to salvation. After all, didn't God say in Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

​

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

O_O Simple Brains need Simple answers but must be answered by simple questions....

What makes you right?
Where in the Bible does it ever say "Salvation by faith alone"
Where in the Bible does it say "salvation not by faith alone? (james 2:24)

I think my Point is Clear, Mine actually says, "Not By Faith Alone" Your Qoute says "Not OF Works" which has 2 points, The context of the statement, is true, It is not OF works we are saved, But BY Works and BY Faith we recieve salvation, Simple English/Greek Really

But i guess the Bible is all Greek to you (Cute pun huh?)

 

[Vassal]

O_O Simple Brains need Simple answers but must be answered by simple questions....

What makes you right?
Where in the Bible does it ever say "Salvation by faith alone"
Where in the Bible does it say "salvation not by faith alone? (james 2:24)

I think my Point is Clear, Mine actually says, "Not By Faith Alone" Your Qoute says "Not OF Works" which has 2 points, The context of the statement, is true, It is not OF works we are saved, But BY Works and BY Faith we recieve salvation, Simple English/Greek Really

But i guess the Bible is all Greek to you (Cute pun huh?)

Did you not read the few verses before verse 24?

James 2:19-24 (NLT) 19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? 21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

If you knew Greek, or even just the basic premise of how ancient languages are translated, you would know how silly it is to translate words without looking at their context. We know that salvation is by faith alone, because of the dozens of times the Bible says so. Here are some just off the the top of my head:

John 3:14-15 (NLT) 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

John 3:18 (NLT) “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

Romans 1:17 (NLT) This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

Romans 3:22 (NLT) We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Romans 3:27-28 (NLT) 27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on our faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Romans 4:1-5 (NLT) 1 Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What did he discover about being made right with God? 2 If his good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way. 3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 4 When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. 5 But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

Romans 10:9-13 (NLT) 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NLT) 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Is James actually saying that we aren’t justified by faith alone in verse 24? No, he isn’t. He is saying that we are justified by what we do, and not only by knowing the truth. The verse that shows this to be the case is verse 14 where he starts out his argument which says “What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?” Throughout this entire discourse James is talking about people who claim to have faith but don’t act on it, not people who have true faith. In these couple of verses the word translated as faith should be translated as knowing the truth rather than faith or belief, because faith and belief both imply acting upon knowledge which is not what James is talking about. A better translation would be:

James 2:19-24 19 You say you have faith, for you know that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons know this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that knowing the truth without acting upon it is useless? 21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, not only did he know the truth but he also acted on it. His faith was made complete because of his actions. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God. 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not just because we know the truth.

James is making two key statements here:

• We are saved by faith (verse 23)
• Faith is knowing the truth and acting on it (verse 22 and 24)

This agrees with what Jesus said: (John 3:14-15, Matthew 7:18-20, Matthew 7:21)
This agrees with what Paul wrote: (Romans 2:13, Romans 6:15-16)
This agrees with what John wrote: (1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:1-2)
This agrees with what Peter wrote: (1 Peter 1:5, 1 Peter 1:9, 1 Peter 1:13-16)

If a person lives a good life, humanly speaking, but then dies without faith, then isn’t that person is still guilty of the few, again humanly speaking, sins that he or she did commit? Of course that person is. And if another person lives a sinful life but then turns to God and asks for forgiveness by acknowledging their sinful ways, trusting in what God did through Christ Jesus, and turning from their sin, then won’t God graciously pour out his mercy and declare that person not guilty? Of course he will. So you see, Faith in Christ Jesus, who takes away our sins, is how we are saved, and not by the things we do. But just as James wrote, faith is more than just knowing the truth about Christ, it is acting on it by turning from sin and doing what is right.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Yes we are saved by faith, No where does it say by Faith alone O_O

Faith and works, really simple....

Do you really believe a sinners prayer and just believing is enouph? You dont have to live a good life.... arent the commandments, the beatitudes, and Jesus' seperation of the goat and sheep all works? Yeah, they are, so get a clue

And you deff. hadnt been around this forum long enouph to know what i know.

So lets get ancient Greek on You........

Knowwhere not once in the Original Septuigent, (Which i set thru a 2 year program, where it was translated to direct english, and discussed) Not once is the Term Faith alone used in your context, Faith Alone is mentioned...Once....When the Gospel says "Not by Faith alone"

and yes i did read the passages before James 2:24....what does it say ?

You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless? 21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.

All your doing is supporting what i am saying.....So dont bother trying...You just pointed out everything the Catholic Church Believes, (Thank you for supporting me )

One thing you need to understand ..that you fail to understand...... Catholic Believe You are saved By Gods Grace.....Justification by Faith and works.... as the Bible Teaches, As Jesus Teaches, As the Church Today and the Early Church Teeaches...

If a person believes in Jesus, says a sinners prayer...Then they can live there life without ever helping people....without being good people?

Here are some Questions.....

How do you Judge Who is a good person? The way they treat others? The way they Act?

Jesus Judges the same way...... He said so...... Read Seperation Of The Sheep And Goats.......

Jesus Judges By acts......

If Jesus judges us by our acts, and we judge others based on there acts....

then..... how wrong you are.......................