Religion is not the root of all evil.

[McBell]

The Creator created the human body perfectly. The strength of the human body has diminished due to other elements.

The Creator doesn't need to attain perfection. He is already perfect. He does not make mistakes. Humans are not perfect. We are flawed; we make mistakes. We are going to remain imperfect until it is all over.

It’s not about fault in the way you think it is. If you want to get a better idea of how I feel, read my thread, “Many Gods, One Creator”.

Okay...Look again at my quote:

See the word “always”? I didn’t say never. I said you can’t always relate our emotions. In any case, in my example about parents and their children, I was making a comparison. Comparing the situation so that you could relate and understand the fact that the Creator is not always going to intervene.

No. I’ve clearly stated we don’t know the entire system of the Creator. Are you even reading my posts thoroughly?

Don’t act like I’m trying to say I know all there is to know about the Creator when I’ve made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion that no one does, myself included. However, you could know more if you actually believed he existed. Do you believe He exists?

No matter how much you believe He is, The Creator is not indifferent. You may not accept it, but He does intervene. I reiterate...He is not indifferent.

Do you actual believe that "survival of the fittest" didn't involve self-defense?

I didn’t contradict myself at all. What I said is that although there are fundamental rights and wrongs, there are also gray areas as well. The two can co-exist you know. Not everything in life is black and white. And absolution doesn’t occur in all things.

Again, you are stuck on what society thinks so it’s pointless to keep going on on that topic.

Slavery is wrong; has always been whether accepted by society as wrong or not. Clearly sweat shops are deplorable. With that stated, you cannot change everything in the world. Do you work for China’s government? Are you going to go to China (or any other country for that matter) and personally find out where all the sweatshops are? You can’t control everyone’s actions, but you can certainly control your own. It’s not our responsibility to control everything in the world. As I stated before, the Creator doesn’t intervene in all things in the world. And I’m sure He doesn’t expect us to try to intervene in all things as well. The best thing for you to do with regards to sweatshops is not buy the products you know for certain are the result of a sweatshop.

Again, did you read my post carefully. I said if society said something that is incredibly right is, instead, wrong, you’d go along with believing that way because you depend so much on society to form your views. Therefore, it could be anything. Just pick something. One right off the top of my head I feel it’s going on now is the act of homosexuality. Society is really trying to make that right when it is clearly wrong.

The Creator did not create people that way. As I’ve said before, people come from the human body. We were born of the human body. The human body was created perfect, but has diminished over the centuries thereby things go wrong with the body. Some of those things are passed on from one generation to the next. Ever heard of genetics?

Stealing covetously -- covetously is wrong. I’ve already said this more than once.

I noticed you didn’t answer my question regarding the scenario I gave. Here it is again...

Please don’t do you like you did the last time by giving an ambiguous answer. To refresh your memory, you only responded “Yes” without even clarifying what you were saying “Yes” to. Please be more clear this time.

:sleep::sleep:
Can someone please wake me when this self righteous sermon is over?
:sleep::sleep::sleep:

 

[waitasec]

The Creator created the human body perfectly. The strength of the human body has diminished due to other elements.

wait, didn't the creator create those other elements too....?

Humans are not perfect. We are flawed; we make mistakes. We are going to remain imperfect until it is all over.

so yes, the human body was created imperfectly.

It’s not about fault in the way you think it is. If you want to get a better idea of how I feel, read my thread, “Many Gods, One Creator”.

sure just give me a link to it, thanks

Okay...Look again at my quote:

See the word “always”? I didn’t say never. I said you can’t always relate our emotions.

always means what?
it is non exclusive...meaning at all times...so when you say, "you can't always" you are essentially saying never...

In any case, in my example about parents and their children, I was making a comparison. Comparing the situation so that you could relate and understand the fact that the Creator is not always going to intervene.

an emotional comparison...something one is not capable of doing for the reason the creator is ineffable...right?

No. I’ve clearly stated we don’t know the entire system of the Creator. Are you even reading my posts thoroughly?

i am only pointing out the irreconcilable inconsistencies...remember this is your idea, not mine and i am only trying to explain to you how i interpret what you are conveying... sorry if i'm dense.

Don’t act like I’m trying to say I know all there is to know about the Creator when I’ve made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion that no one does, myself included. However, you could know more if you actually believed he existed. Do you believe He exists?

i don't know, and i have accepted the premise that i may never know...

No matter how much you believe He is, The Creator is not indifferent. You may not accept it, but He does intervene. I reiterate...He is not indifferent.

sorry my brain cannot compute that way of thinking. the fact there are double standards makes me think something isn't set in stone...my hypothesis is that it is indifferent and this premise seems to work with reality, otherwise goal posts need to be repositioned whenever there is an inconsistency:
the creator stood by with indifference concerning elisabeth fritzl
and at the same time the creator thought 'so and so' was more worthy of being saved from a horrific situation...
if you think the creator isn't indifferent then the creator is definitely not benevolent.

Do you actual believe that "survival of the fittest" didn't involve self-defense?

so then murder isn't so black and white..which is the point i've been making all along.

I didn’t contradict myself at all. What I said is that although there are fundamental rights and wrongs, there are also gray areas as well. The two can co-exist you know. Not everything in life is black and white. And absolution doesn’t occur in all things.

you did say that murder was a constant wrong...
i just pointed out to you that wasn't so...if one peals back the layers to the basics...survival of the fittest...an indifferent stance for the creator to be in...
and an indifferent system the creator set up...right?

so if a starving man sees another man with the only game for miles...
does the creator think the "innocent man" who was minding his own business was wronged by being murdered in order for the fittest to survive?

Slavery is wrong;... The best thing for you to do with regards to sweatshops is not buy the products you know for certain are the result of a sweatshop.

i suggest you look at any product in your home...i guarantee 9 out of 10 items are made in china...this is real. slavery is wrong when it comes to us making slaves of our fellow tribes man...however it's ok if the chinesse are subjected to it....because 'i need that 5:1 surround sound sony system in my home and a 62" flat screen TV'

Again, did you read my post carefully. I said if society said something that is incredibly right is, instead, wrong, you’d go along with believing that way because you depend so much on society to form your views. Therefore, it could be anything. Just pick something.

you said:

And something -- no matter how incredibly right it is -- is wrong if society says it is wrong.

so what is so incredibly right...meaning a constant right, that society says is wrong?

One right off the top of my head I feel it’s going on now is the act of homosexuality. Society is really trying to make that right when it is clearly wrong.

this doesn't tell me what is a constant right changed to a wrong...this is what you deem as a wrong changed into a right...

wrong according to who, you or the creator? and how do you explain to me the creator is actually concerned with homosexual sex...he must be if you say it is wrong...why? and how do you know this if the creator is ineffable? if your answer is, because it is obvious...i would also say, no it isn't obvious...it maybe obvious to you but not to everyone...and the creator isn't subjective right...or is the it?
nature isn't subjected to our personal interpretations; when it rains we can't change that fact...we don't question it...we accept it, at least some of us can.

The Creator did not create people that way. As I’ve said before, people come from the human body. We were born of the human body. The human body was created perfect, but has diminished over the centuries thereby things go wrong with the body. Some of those things are passed on from one generation to the next. Ever heard of genetics?

this is another example of your how your idea is forced to move goal posts...

deviants... ...schizophrenics... apathetic individuals... exist...and are not that way because of any other external influence other than being "created" that way...here you are giving the creator all the credit for the good and not for the bad...why?

I noticed you didn’t answer my question regarding the scenario I gave. Here it is again...



Please don’t do you like you did the last time by giving an ambiguous answer. To refresh your memory, you only responded “Yes” without even clarifying what you were saying “Yes” to. Please be more clear this time.

first, lets define what "rightfully mine" means.

 

[thebigpicture]

sure just give me a link to it, thanks

wait, didn't the creator create those other elements too....?

You can get an idea of how I feel about this by reading my thread. It’s on this forum. It might be on one of the first four pages.

so yes, the human body was created imperfectly.

The human body was created perfectly.

always means what?
it is non exclusive...meaning at all times...so when you say, "you can't always" you are essentially saying never...

Are you serious? Waitasec, “can’t” means cannot. “Always” means all the time; every single time. I said can’t always. Meaning you cannot all the time say; you cannot all the time do, etc. Therefore, when I said, “You can't always use the emotional descriptions we use for humans to describe what the Creator feels...” I'm saying that you can’t use the emotional descriptions we use for humans to describe what the Creator feels all the time. We can use them sometimes, but not all the time.

an emotional comparison...something one is not capable of doing for the reason the creator is ineffable...right?

What are you talking about? I never said that the Creator could not be described. I said that we, as humans, can’t fully understand Him and that we can’t always use the same emotional descriptions we use for humans to describe Him as well.

i am only pointing out the irreconcilable inconsistencies...remember this is your idea, not mine and i am only trying to explain to you how i interpret what you are conveying... sorry if i'm dense.

I’ve been completely consistent in everything I have said. Not only have I been consistent in what I say, I’ve said the same things repeatedly. So I really can’t understand why you have not yet been able to attain a solid understanding of what I’ve conveyed.

i don't know, and i have accepted the premise that i may never know...

A lot of people feel the way you do. Some people really want to know that the Creator exists, but because they cannot physically see or hear Him, they find it difficult to accept that He does. A lot of them don’t believe He exists until an event takes place in their lives that confirms His existence. Then they come to the realization that He, indeed, does exist. Maybe one day you will get a confirmation.

sorry my brain cannot compute that way of thinking. the fact there are double standards makes me think something isn't set in stone...my hypothesis is that it is indifferent and this premise seems to work with reality, otherwise goal posts need to be repositioned whenever there is an inconsistency:
the creator stood by with indifference concerning elisabeth fritzl
and at the same time the creator thought 'so and so' was more worthy of being saved from a horrific situation...
if you think the creator isn't indifferent then the creator is definitely not benevolent.

All I can tell you is that the Creator is indeed benevolent and that He is not indifferent. If you can’t see it, you can’t see it. To continue on about it with you would be redundant because I think it’s more about your not wanting to see it rather than you not being able to see it, because... I’ve painted the picture pretty clearly.

so then murder isn't so black and white..which is the point i've been making all along.
you did say that murder was a constant wrong...
i just pointed out to you that wasn't so...if one peals back the layers to the basics...survival of the fittest...an indifferent stance for the creator to be in...
and an indifferent system the creator set up...right?

so if a starving man sees another man with the only game for miles...
does the creator think the "innocent man" who was minding his own business was wronged by being murdered in order for the fittest to survive?

I’m really convinced that you are not reading my posts carefully because if you were, you wouldn’t continue to make statements like these.

i suggest you look at any product in your home...i guarantee 9 out of 10 items are made in china...this is real. slavery is wrong when it comes to us making slaves of our fellow tribes man...however it's ok if the chinesse are subjected to it....because 'i need that 5:1 surround sound sony system in my home and a 62" flat screen TV'

Are you saying that every single product that comes out of China is a product of slavery?

As I stated before, you can’t control the world. You can’t intervene in everything.

you said:

so what is so incredibly right...meaning a constant right, that society says is wrong?


this doesn't tell me what is a constant right changed to a wrong...this is what you deem as a wrong changed into a right...

wrong according to who, you or the creator? and how do you explain to me the creator is actually concerned with homosexual sex...he must be if you say it is wrong...why? and how do you know this if the creator is ineffable? if your answer is, because it is obvious...i would also say, no it isn't obvious...it maybe obvious to you but not to everyone...and the creator isn't subjective right...or is the it?
nature isn't subjected to our personal interpretations; when it rains we can't change that fact...we don't question it...we accept it, at least some of us can.

I’m not going to go further into my views on homosexuality. I’ve already had this debate on another thread and, like the thread on evolution, it ended up going round and round with no different outlook from either side of the debate. I don’t like going in circles when it’s obvious there’s no different outcome in sight. Therefore, if you want to know details about how I feel about homosexuality, you can read it on that thread.

this is another example of your how your idea is forced to move goal posts...

deviants... ...schizophrenics... apathetic individuals... exist...and are not that way because of any other external influence other than being "created" that way...here you are giving the creator all the credit for the good and not for the bad...why?

The goal posts don’t need to be moved, nor have I moved them. You just refuse to see them as defined.

first, lets define what "rightfully mine" means.

It sure seems like you are trying to avoid answering the question. But, I will answer.

It’s something that is yours by right. It could be your prescription medication; it could be your coat. It belongs to you; not him.

 

[waitasec]

I think it’s more about your not wanting to see it rather than you not being able to see it, because... I’ve painted the picture pretty clearly.

not really. you are being presumptuous...

I’m really convinced that you are not reading my posts carefully because if you were, you wouldn’t continue to make statements like these.

i'll ask again, and maybe if you answer i'll get what you are saying...
so if a starving man sees another man with the only game for miles...
does the creator think the "innocent man" who was minding his own business was wronged by being murdered in order for the fittest to survive?

Are you saying that every single product that comes out of China is a product of slavery?

if one product from china is a product of slavery it's one product too many, don't you think...

As I stated before, you can’t control the world. You can’t intervene in everything...

so then for you it is not an evil to be buying products made in china where sweat shops are prevalent...

what about certain wrongs being a constant?

I’m not going to go further into my views on homosexuality. I’ve already had this debate on another thread and, like the thread on evolution, it ended up going round and round with no different outlook from either side of the debate. I don’t like going in circles when it’s obvious there’s no different outcome in sight. Therefore, if you want to know details about how I feel about homosexuality, you can read it on that thread.

ok so...what is a constant right changed to a wrong?
i'm still waiting for you to answer that question....

The goal posts don’t need to be moved, nor have I moved them. You just refuse to see them as defined.

why do you give the creator the credit for the good stuff and not the bad stuff,
isn't that a double standard?

It sure seems like you are trying to avoid answering the question. But, I will answer.

It’s something that is yours by right. It could be your prescription medication; it could be your coat. It belongs to you; not him.

just so you know
you didn't define "rightfully yours" you just used the same words and rearranged them to "yours by right".
i don't think you can explain to me what "right" means?
so i'll help you out...
is it something due to me by nature as an entitlement or a prerogative? but i'm not the only one who has this entitlement, am i?

i can only think of a few things i can say is due to me by nature; my ideas and my right to fight for my survival. everything else is up for grabs... and this of course goes for everyone else too. thank goodness we don't live in a world that is so harsh as it was before...we live in a world where fellow tribes men treat each other the way they want to be treated in order to ensure survival...and those who don't follow suit are dealt with.
but i guarantee once something happens, like some sort of pandemic, it'll be a dog eat dog world once again...
so lets just say what i have and need is the antidote and there are only a few specimens left...if someone steals that away from me for their survival...i wouldn't be happy that's for sure...and i'd also be dead. so i wouldn't care if that person survives...or is punished...because they also have the right to survive too. survival of the fittest... it's an indifferent system. this would be the only situation that i can think of with your drastic synopsis....

 

[thebigpicture]

just so you know
you didn't define "rightfully yours" you just used the same words and rearranged them to "yours by right".
i don't think you can explain to me what "right" means?
so i'll help you out...
is it something due to me by nature as an entitlement or a prerogative? but i'm not the only one who has this entitlement, am i?

i can only think of a few things i can say is due to me by nature; my ideas and my right to fight for my survival. everything else is up for grabs... and this of course goes for everyone else too. thank goodness we don't live in a world that is so harsh as it was before...we live in a world where fellow tribes men treat each other the way they want to be treated in order to ensure survival...and those who don't follow suit are dealt with.
but i guarantee once something happens, like some sort of pandemic, it'll be a dog eat dog world once again...
so lets just say what i have and need is the antidote and there are only a few specimens left...if someone steals that away from me for their survival...i wouldn't be happy that's for sure...and i'd also be dead. so i wouldn't care if that person survives...or is punished...because they also have the right to survive too. survival of the fittest... it's an indifferent system. this would be the only situation that i can think of with your drastic synopsis....

I didn’t give you the definition of the phrase “rightfully yours” because it’s something, as an adult, I feel you should already know the definition of. Just like I should not have had to explain the meaning of “can’t always” to you. You keep trying to get out of answering the question straightforward and I’m not about to assist in your evasion. I don't feel I should have to explain every minute detail for you to have what should be basic comprehension of what I’m saying.

The truth of the matter is that I have answered all of your questions time and time again in a very straightforward manner, often seeming like a broken record. I don’t evade your questions and/or hide behind syntax because guess what -- ? I don’t need to. If you ask a question, I’ll answer it straightforward. If I ever felt I was wrong about something or I couldn’t answer, I would just come right out and say I was wrong or couldn’t answer rather than beat around the bush the way you do. It’s not the first time you have gone up and down and all around to avoid answering a question I posed that I feel you knew you couldn’t answer without proving my point. I have to say that it's a silly thing to me...when people evade questions. And though I’m tolerant, my tolerance does have a limit. I could pose that same scenario and the exact same question verbatim I posed to you to someone standing at a crosswalk waiting for the signal to change and they’d answer the question in 15 seconds flat...if that. The fact that it has been about three posts later and you still haven’t given what I feel is an honest answer is not something I’m willing to continue to enable to carry on and/or entertain. So, I’m pretty much done with you on this thread. I’ve said time and time again...I don’t mind at all debating and discussing topics as long as the debating and discussing is productive. But, all this makes absolutely no sense to me and I simply don’t have time for it.

I have already answered your questions time and time again. If you want the answers again, go back and look for them in my previous posts -- the answers are indeed there. And let me say that I would have replied to a couple of questions you asked in your last post, but really...c’mon...what would be the point? I’ve been overly patient, but time’s up. I’ve reached my cut-off point. It’s about that time for me to exit this little carousel ride and move right along.

 

[waitasec]

The truth of the matter is that I have answered all of your questions time and time again in a very straightforward manner, often seeming like a broken record

not really

. I don’t evade your questions

yes you do.

you never answered this one:
what is a constant right changed to a wrong?

 

[waitasec]

I have already answered your questions time and time again. If you want the answers again, go back and look for them in my previous posts

i can say the same thing captain...

btw,
the big picture...is your point of view.