Regarding Homosexuality

[EnhancedSpirit]

Why is it so easy for us to forget the first sin? Which has to do with the knowledge of good and evil. We have the knowledge, but not the experience, and this is why we are told to not judge.

Some cultures view homosexuals as being 'sacred' beings, because their energy is not separated male or female, but infused male and female. Are you following this?

Ok, for heterosexuals, we may be designed for 'multiplying' the earth. But maybe people who are born homosexual have a different purpose, one of spiritual nature? Who would be more likely to become a priest? Someone who liked women, and was in constant battle with celibacy, or a gay man, who has no problem with lusting after women? And same for nuns, is it just me who sees this?

We are taught in our society that it is wrong for same sex affections. Even to the point that a man will not hug another man. I ask you, who is more qualified to teach of unconditional love? A hetersexual who cannot love both sexes equally, or a gay person who loves freely the same sex?

Now for the sex part of it, that is of the flesh. Sex should be sacred regardless of who your partner is. But that is not the point of my little discussion here. I just want to present to you that just because homosexual partnership does not result in childbirth, does not mean that there is no meaning for it. Unconditional Love has many lessons to teach us.

 

[Flappycat]

You did make some good points though, it only takes time till a repressed minority fights back.

On more rational thought, things are changing in the West, so none of that will be necessary. The sodomy laws are dead and buried and, let's be honest, were rarely taken seriously in this country in the first place. However, how about Nigeria? Saudi Arabia? What's going to happen there, where such a large segment of the population actually is violently repressed? What's going to happen in Jamaica, where people are actively persecuted even by the police over sexual orientation, whether actual or perceived, to the extent of a fellow being arrested and run up on charges after a stone-throwing mob tried to kill him over a perceived grope? I don't know what to do for them, and I really feel kind of helpless.

 

[Ody]

Hold faith in the overman, to put it in a nietzsche's words so to speak i guess 0.0

 

[Evandr2]

threads declaring homosexuality to be a sin have came onto RF lately, and it brought into mind a good question.

Is there any pure logical reason on why a human should not have sex with a member of the same gender? I will find it hard to believe that one will be able to come up with a reason not based on the words of G-d, i mean in this day of "test tube" babies we dont run the risk of destroying the human race. Which brings me to my question

WHY DO U HAVE THE RIGHT TO FORCE HOMOSEXUALS TO NOT HAVE A FAMILY! WHERE DOES IT SAY WE ARE TO FORCE OUR RELIGIOUS AND SOMETIMES BIGOTED VIEWS ON OTHERS!

After all making decisions based purely on religious arguements warrants the creation of a theocracy, something i will not let befall my beloved country.

One of the greatest and most essential gifts of God is our free agency. It is also a cherished gift in a free country. You know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can do, think and act as you wish.

The trick is to do it without interfering with my rights. I am not a homosexual and it is within my right to express that just as much as it is for you or any other to express their sexual preference, BUT, because we all do not live in caves totally void of any interdependence on one another, their must be guidelines that are established to promote the general welfare of the populace. Those guidelines, or laws if you will, are in a constant state of change. Some faster than others.

One of the guiding factors that determine if change is fast or slow is Historical experience. You want to leave God out of it - Fine, but you have no right to leave me out of it. My family has to continue in this society along side you and be affected by the laws you help make.

I am a reasonably intelligent person and capable of seeing trends, you know, cause and effect. History has demonstrated that every culture that embraces the concept of homosexuality and other social trends in that same category has collapsed.

I don't recall who said it but “the nation that will not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.” It seems that we are about to do just that and I am sure you and yours will be just as astonished as those in ancient cultures that have collapsed, that it could happen to so great and enlightened a society as they and ours.

I have a right to make my views know and be part of the moral majority or whatever group I want, as do you. Just don't ask me to sit idly by while you and an ever increasing portion of society attempts to shape our culture into something that has proven disastrous throughout history. That affects my rights and those of my children to look forward to a strong and happy society.

Weather you believe in God or not is irrelevant. The standards that govern a successful society shun what has been either given, risen up, classified, and/or developed into sin. There is a reason that sin is a category of action that is labeled “Though Shalt Not” weather the words come from God or the experience of man. Actions categorized as sin have proven time and again to be unwise to the success of a society.

It is extraordinarily selfish and presumptuous of anyone to assume that a set of ideals has no value because it is generally associated with the commandments of a God.

We have a right and responsibility to make laws that protect our society and if those laws go against your personal grain – well – I’m sorry but when all else fails, the needs of the many must take precedence over the needs of the few. Otherwise chaos and mobocracy would prevail.

Vandr

 

[Ody]

I am a reasonably intelligent person and capable of seeing trends, you know, cause and effect. History has demonstrated that every culture that embraces the concept of homosexuality and other social trends in that same category has collapsed.




We have a right and responsibility to make laws that protect our society and if those laws go against your personal grain – well – I’m sorry but when all else fails, the needs of the many must take precedence over the needs of the few. Otherwise chaos and mobocracy would prevail.

Vandr

Well quess what mr.historian, the greeks fell due to infighting, not to an acceptance of homosexuality.

And I especially found the final post great where you basically said "minorites do not have the right to have the same rights as me because I said so.

 

[Evandr2]

Guess what! HOMOSEXUALITY WASN'T THE REASON FOR THE FALL OF THE GREEKS!
Second your second paragraph i just mentioned basically said
"hey minority
**** YOUR RIGHTS!"

What does your comment have to do with the reality that immorality has proven to be regressive in any society. If it were not so then the concept of homosexuality would have survived the ages and be so ingrained into the world’s culture that we would not be having this conversation.

The reality is that the only accepted constant that in our world culture is that which is contrary to the acceptance of sin in all its forms, homosexuality included.

It keeps rearing its ugly head and has even prevailed for a time. But cold hard fact is that every society that has ever embraced it has collapsed sooner or later for one reason or another.

Weather homosexuality is directly or indirectly responsible for the fall, one thing is sure, it has never failed to be a sure marker that indicates the dead end path that a society is on.

Vandr

 

[Evandr2]

Well quess what mr.historian, the greeks fell due to infighting, not to an acceptance of homosexuality.

And I especially found the final post great where you basically said "minorites do not have the right to have the same rights as me because I said so.

Please read the whole statement and try not to get angry. I said "When all else fails" meaning that when is comes to a point of sink or swim, the majority has to rule or we all drowned. If the minority can persuade enough of the majority over to its point of view then the minority becomes the majority and the majority still wins out.
Vandr

 

[Quoth The Raven]

. But cold hard fact is that every society that has ever embraced it has collapsed sooner or later for one reason or another.

Them there in red being the operative words. No empire endures forever...and the acceptance or not of homosexuality doesn't make a jot of difference to the fact that a civilization's 'day in the sun' is only ever a day.

 

[Evandr2]

Them there in red being the operative words. No empire endures forever...and the acceptance or not of homosexuality doesn't make a jot of difference to the fact that a civilization's 'day in the sun' is only ever a day.

Then why is it that homosexuality as an socially accepted trait is always found very near the end of a culture and never at the beginning?

Your argument is like saying that advanced cancer does not kill a person by virtue of the fact that they will die someday anyhow.

Vandr

 

[Evandr2]

Them there in red being the operative words. No empire endures forever...and the acceptance or not of homosexuality doesn't make a jot of difference to the fact that a civilization's 'day in the sun' is only ever a day.

And one more thing - The kingdom of God does endure forever

Vandr

 

[Mister_T]

History has demonstrated that every culture that embraces the concept of homosexuality and other social trends in that same category has collapsed.

Can you back this up with...um...proof? Like historical proof. And not your opinion. I've never been taught that in ANY history class.

It is extraordinarily selfish and presumptuous of anyone to assume that a set of ideals has no value because it is generally associated with the commandments of a God.

What causes these ideals to have no value is that the ideals and the people they come from, are trying to oppress a group of individuals who are not causing any harm to anybody. And they use ink and paper or "the word of God" as a justification for this. That's not reasonable.

What does your comment have to do with the reality that immorality has proven to be regressive in any society

Immorality is in every society. This point is moot.

Weather homosexuality is directly or indirectly responsible for the fall, one thing is sure, it has never failed to be a sure marker that indicates the dead end path that a society is on.

Again where's the eveidence for this? This is the first time I'm hearing it. Civilizations have fallen for many reasons. I've NEVER heard of homosexuality being a main cause. This argument of yours seems to be speculation.

 

[Bishka]

Can you back this up with...um...proof? Like historical proof. And not your opinion. I've never been taught that in ANY history class.

What causes these ideals to have no value is that the ideals and the people they come from, are trying to oppress a group of individuals who are not causing any harm to anybody. And they use ink and paper or "the word of God" as a justification for this. That's not reasonable.

Immorality is in every society. This point is moot.

Again where's the eveidence for this? This is the first time I'm hearing it. Civilizations have fallen for many reasons. I've NEVER heard of homosexuality being a main cause. This argument of yours seems to be speculation.

Just to butt in, I don't remember what grade it was in, but I remember being taught, both in Washington State and Utah that homosexuality was the main cause for several civilizations downfalls. I attend public school until I reached college.

 

[Mister_T]

Just to butt in, I don't remember what grade it was in, but I remember being taught, both in Washington State and Utah that homosexuality was the main cause for several civilizations downfalls. I attend public school until I reached college.

I don't doubt that's it's taught somewhere Becky. I would just like to read it for myself seeing as how this is the first time I've ever heard of it. Preferably material from a non-religious source.

 

[Booko]

People say that homosexuality is against nature, but nature has no regard to sexual morality, animals have sex with males and females alike.

If homosexuality occurs in nature, I'm at a loss to explain how it can be against nature.

In nature, it might not do much to increase the populate, but as the OP pointed out, we're not exactly lacking humans anyway.

We are animals, but we also have the divine spark within us and we should use that to bind us together, not push each other apart.

ibid.

 

[Bishka]

I don't doubt that's it's taught somewhere Becky. I would just like to read it for myself seeing as how this is the first time I've ever heard of it. Preferably material from a non-religious source.

That's the thing, mine wasn't religious. Taught straight in public school (allthough the Utah public school is more inclined to be religious), but I heard in Washington. It's been years, so I could give you an exact text or teacher. Sorry.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

And one more thing - The kingdom of God does endure forever

Vandr

That's nice- so does the kingdom of my goddesses and gods. While all of 'em are busy enduring, please take a glimpse here. Please PM me if you wish things clarified.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

And one more thing - The kingdom of God does endure forever

Vandr

Gee, and here I thought we were talking about people, rather than mythical bearded men in frocks, who may or may not own a dictaphone.:sarcastic

 

[Feathers in Hair]

It is extraordinarily selfish and presumptuous of anyone to assume that a set of ideals has no value because it is generally associated with the commandments of a God.

Funny- I think it's extraordinarily selfish and presumtuous of anyone or any group to assume that their set of values should be forced upon others simply because they believe that theirs is the only true religion.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Your argument is like saying that advanced cancer does not kill a person by virtue of the fact that they will die someday anyhow.

And yours sounds like something you pulled out your arse...your point being what exactly?

 

[Booko]

Just to butt in, I don't remember what grade it was in, but I remember being taught, both in Washington State and Utah that homosexuality was the main cause for several civilizations downfalls. I attend public school until I reached college.

I think it would be a tough historical argument to claim that homosexuality per se was the cause of the fall of civilization.

There are many problems with such a view, the biggie being it's terribly simplistic.

First off, you'd have to show that there's a correlation between acceptance of homosexuality and the decline of a civilization.

But correlation doesn't imply causation.

And then, how many other factors might be involved?

I would look first to a general lawlessness as more of a factor in the decline of civilizations. Acceptance of homosexuality may or may not be considered "lawlessness," but there are other things that are unquestionably "lawlessness," like corruption in public and private institutions, violent crime, theft, children disrespecting parents, disregard for the elderly, and so forth.

Because of these difficulties, I'd be surprised to see historians advancing an argument that acceptance of homosexuality is the "cause" of the downfall of a civilization. At _most_ someone might claim it's a "sign" of the impending downfall, but a main cause or the only cause?